Author Topic: three phase immersion heater  (Read 7845 times)

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hall99m

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three phase immersion heater
« on: December 29, 2005, 12:33:10 PM »
I currently have a 1kw windmill running two storage heaters in my home.  I would like to be able to heat my water so I would need a three phase immersion heater to put into my hot water tank.  basically I would need three 1kw single phase elements together to make a total of 3kw.  Does such a thing exist or would I have to make it?


Hall99m

« Last Edit: December 29, 2005, 12:33:10 PM by (unknown) »

Jon Miller

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Re: three phase immersion heater
« Reply #1 on: December 29, 2005, 05:49:31 AM »
What voltage is your system? what is its AH capacity
« Last Edit: December 29, 2005, 05:49:31 AM by Jon Miller »


hall99m

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Re: three phase immersion heater
« Reply #2 on: December 29, 2005, 06:28:06 AM »
It starts generating power at around 100v, it is a three phase machine.  It can generate 1kw at around 9-10ms wind which is average wind speed where I live.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2005, 06:28:06 AM by hall99m »

hall99m

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Re: three phase immersion heater
« Reply #3 on: December 29, 2005, 06:29:58 AM »
It generates a maximum power of around 2.5kw in a gale.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2005, 06:29:58 AM by hall99m »

dinges

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Re: three phase immersion heater
« Reply #4 on: December 29, 2005, 07:24:18 AM »
I'm pretty sure it exists (though I've never seen one, but doesn't mean much). In industrial heating applications, where lots of power are required, that would be the way to go.


But it may be much easier/simpler (if not cheaper and quicker?) to simply find 3 identical heaters of the correct rating, and connect that to your generator, either in star or delta. I think that's how I would do it. I wouldn't know where to get 3phase heaters here in NL (though they're probably available), and I don't even want to know what they'd charge for it. Now, if I found one at a scrap yard, that would be a different matter of course...


Peter,

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« Last Edit: December 29, 2005, 07:24:18 AM by dinges »
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Flux

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Re: three phase immersion heater
« Reply #5 on: December 29, 2005, 07:47:05 AM »
Peter is right, 3 phase heating elements are available but the limited market means that they will be a lot more than 3 domestic units.


Flux

« Last Edit: December 29, 2005, 07:47:05 AM by Flux »

mkseps

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Re: three phase immersion heater
« Reply #6 on: December 29, 2005, 11:58:46 AM »
Assuming you have 100 volts available, then you could use a 200 volt 600 watt heater element.  This will yield about a 300 watt load.  Now get 3 of these elements, tie one side of each to common and the three loose ends to the three phases.  This would give you about a 900 watt load.  Just my thoughts.  Maybe not what you are looking for.

Gene
« Last Edit: December 29, 2005, 11:58:46 AM by mkseps »

zubbly

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Re: three phase immersion heater
« Reply #7 on: December 29, 2005, 12:16:21 PM »
hello Hall99m!


if you are going to use a standard household type water heater, why not just rectify your 3 phase output to dc and feed the elements with the dc. the elements should not matter if receiving ac or dc voltage. it would solve the problem of trying to install 3 elements into the water tank.


its just a thought.  

have fun!


zubbly

« Last Edit: December 29, 2005, 12:16:21 PM by zubbly »

maker of toys

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Re: three phase immersion heater
« Reply #8 on: December 29, 2005, 12:34:26 PM »
Ummm. . . Not quite.  power goes with the square of current, and current is linear with voltage into a constant resistance. (P= I^2 * R)


put another way:



  1. W/220V = approx 3 amps.  (660W, 220V is a common heater size in the US)
  2. V/3A = approx 75 ohms.
  3. V/75 ohms = approx 1.3 Amps
  4. V *1.3A = about 130 watts
  5. /660 = about 1/5 the amount of power absorbtion capability when running on a little under 1/2 the rated volts.  which checks; if you double the volts, power goes up 4 times.


this of course ignores the whole question of the element resistance changing with temperature, etc. . . also ignores the variablility of the volts/current power coming from the mill and any strangeness due to odd wave-forms and wierd duty cycles.  (not that I'd expect those to crop up in a resistive circuit like this one)


Watlow makes lots of heaters;  they might have a heater that would work for your application.  (or maybe they'd be willing to make one; they've made small runs (<10 units) for us.)


as other posters have said, 1 phase heaters are standard;  because heaters are resistive devices, there is no problem running physically separate heating elements from legs of a single 3 phase feed, so long as the currents into those heaters are fairly close in value.


 

« Last Edit: December 29, 2005, 12:34:26 PM by maker of toys »

hall99m

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Re: three phase immersion heater
« Reply #9 on: December 29, 2005, 12:49:49 PM »
I need to have three elements to be compatable with my control system.  I could fit three elements into the same unit, then put it into my tank.


Hall99m.

« Last Edit: December 29, 2005, 12:49:49 PM by hall99m »

crashk6

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Re: three phase immersion heater
« Reply #10 on: December 29, 2005, 03:16:31 PM »
I agree with zubbly, rectifying makes it much simpler to deal with. What kind of control system do you have and what is it controlling... the elements or the mill?


Three phase heating elements are indeed available, but unless you find one surplus (very rare) it's going to cost you a pretty penny. If you can provide more details as to the control system, what it does input output variables etc.. perhaps we can provide some more relevant suggestions along the lines of utilizing a single phase element via rectification.

--

crashK6

« Last Edit: December 29, 2005, 03:16:31 PM by crashk6 »

kenputer

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Re: three phase immersion heater
« Reply #11 on: December 29, 2005, 03:52:08 PM »
Don't know if this helps,but have put in water heaters that were 3 phase 208 volt and the electrician checked and they were drawing 65 amps.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2005, 03:52:08 PM by kenputer »

wooferhound

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Re: three phase immersion heater
« Reply #12 on: December 29, 2005, 04:31:32 PM »
 When you are powering a heating element with a wind genny, there is no cut-in speed. There will be a load on the genny at all times making start-up more difficult.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2005, 04:31:32 PM by wooferhound »

wooferhound

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Re: three phase immersion heater
« Reply #13 on: December 29, 2005, 04:33:02 PM »
Another thing I was wondering about. Why would you need a control system if you are powering a heating element ?
« Last Edit: December 29, 2005, 04:33:02 PM by wooferhound »

Nando

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Re: three phase immersion heater
« Reply #14 on: December 29, 2005, 04:36:24 PM »
Hall99m:


Can you describe the control system that you have for your 1 KW mill.


In detail Please


Nando

« Last Edit: December 29, 2005, 04:36:24 PM by Nando »

Nando

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Re: three phase immersion heater
« Reply #15 on: December 29, 2005, 10:27:39 PM »
BASIC reason: to avoid stalling the machine.


The mill should be loaded just with enough load to harvest the energy at that moment.


Let's say, you have a 1 KW generator and it is 100 volts at 1 KW, or 10 amps, therefore the load is 10 ohms.


The mill will need enough wind ( torque ) to allow the generator to rotate with that 10 ohms load, in reality this load should be a PWM ( Pulse Width Modulated) controlled load, so in a sense the load should vary from 1000 (or more) ohms to 10 ohms.


Ideally, the load should behave like a MPPT load to harvest the maximum power.


Nando

« Last Edit: December 29, 2005, 10:27:39 PM by Nando »

TimV

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Re: three phase immersion heater
« Reply #16 on: January 01, 2006, 06:10:27 AM »
I am sure you might find a element like what you are looking for in a "Dayton" or "Granger"catalog. I know they used to sell indstrial strip elements for heating of all kinds.

Another place would be "The Thomas Register" If anyone in the world makes it, they will list it. Just add ( . com ) and you can get versions online of the items they have.

Did you try a google search?
« Last Edit: January 01, 2006, 06:10:27 AM by TimV »

TimV

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Re: three phase immersion heater
« Reply #17 on: January 01, 2006, 06:31:36 AM »
Wasnt busy so I did a little snooping... Lots a immersion heaters . Trip to a large salvage yard and you should find some or just order a new set.


From Google

  http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=industrial+immersion+heating+elements

http://www.indeeco.com/

INDUSTRIAL ENGINEERING & EQUIPMENT CO.

425 HANLEY INDUSTRIAL COURT

ST. LOUIS, MO 63144

314-644-4300

Fax: 314-644-5332

www.indeeco.com

For Your Nearest INDEECO Representative Call:

800-243-8162


http://www.kellysearch.com/qz-product-49738.html


(Thomas register)      http://news.thomasnet.com/news/3174


http://catalogs.indiamart.com/products/immersion-heaters.html

« Last Edit: January 01, 2006, 06:31:36 AM by TimV »

hall99m

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Re: three phase immersion heater
« Reply #18 on: January 02, 2006, 06:20:09 AM »
I use large capacitors as a control system, my turbine is three phase so I use three elements.  Each output wire is connected to one end of an element the other ends go to my bank of capacitors, which are connected in a delta configuration.  As the machine speeds up the frequency increases, causing the capacitors to conduct more.  using more capacitors increases the rate at which the load is increased.


Hall99m.

« Last Edit: January 02, 2006, 06:20:09 AM by hall99m »

hvirtane

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Re: three phase immersion heater
« Reply #19 on: January 02, 2006, 08:44:19 AM »
Which kind of generator is it?

PMG or some other kind of alternator?


- Hannu


 

« Last Edit: January 02, 2006, 08:44:19 AM by hvirtane »

hall99m

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Re: three phase immersion heater
« Reply #20 on: January 02, 2006, 08:57:49 AM »
My windmill has a PMG type alternator.


Hall99m.

« Last Edit: January 02, 2006, 08:57:49 AM by hall99m »

RP

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Re: three phase immersion heater
« Reply #21 on: January 02, 2006, 07:55:00 PM »
You can still do this with Zubbly's suggestion.  Use your capacitor/frequency filter system to feed the three phase rectifiers and then feed the resulting DC power into whatever kind of single element you want.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2006, 07:55:00 PM by RP »