Homemade Heat Tape for Pipes

[cvo]

I looked at the pricing for heat tape, about $2.5/ft and was wondering if there's a cheaper alternative?

I've got a remote shower and the lines freeze and instead of keeping a small electric heater running all the time I wanted to safe a little money and come up with a way to keep the lines from freezing.

Another problem is that its built "old school", the foundation is only a large rock at each of the 4 corners of the building. The incoming supply water line likes to freeze where it leaves the ground and enters the building. I encased the incoming supply pipe with a 12 flex pipe and stuffed installation into it but it still freezes. Perhaps more "mass" around the pipe.

Any help would be apprectiated.

Thanks.

[Volvo farmer]

$2.50/foot? Get it here for less than $1/foot. There's shorter lengths available too, I just saw 18' for about $20.

http://www.amazon.com/Heat-Tape-W-T-STAT-80/dp/B0006BJLK8

Are you heating the living space that this water line comes into? Does the water line come up from the ground under the building? The traditional way to keep pipes from freezing is to "skirt" the building with plywood or something so that it stays warm in the crawlspace.

Personally, I'd rather spend $20 on heat tape than three hours trying to make my own. Seems to me like installing home-made heat tape would be an easy way to burn your house down and have the insurance company deny the claim.

[cvo]

Thanks Volvo Farmer for the input.

The shower house stands alone unattached to the house. I think I'll put a small electric heater in it and then skirt the sides like you said. Rock, wood or metal. The supply line does come up out of the ground under the building, not much crawl space...18".

Thanks

[Nando]

The possible solution is to wrap the pipe with heavy insulation, also adding a heating tape that only uses energy if the temperature of the water drops to freezing range.

Of course one can limit the air movement under the 4 rocks raised floor, so place skirts to reduce the chilling factor of the wind.

The insulation should have several inches thickness and not too tight but loose.

Nando

[ghurd]

Also, it would help to dig down around the pipe quite a ways, and insulate below the grade.

I have had great results with the foam tubes doubled up. First one fits the pipe, second one fits over the first one.  Then it can be wraped, etc.

G-

[Kevin L]

We often left the water on slightly (2-4 GPH) to keep the pipes from freezing, and used the heat tape if it actually froze.  Its a lot cheaper to pump warm ground water though the pipe then try and run a heater all the time.  Freezing is only a real problem below -10F with this setup, and even then we would just increase the flow to compensate.  It takes some close watching though.  We used 1/2" soft copper for the water lines and never had much problems with cracking.  Some thick insulation around the water lines also works wonders.  I guess if you are in an area with water problems this wont work well, but here water is abundant, and the table isn't to deep so the pumping is cheap.

[Vince]

Um, why not just install non-freeze faucets ?

I can't find an example of the longer ones, but I've seen them at my plumbing wholesaler. You would need the valves to be below your frost line. They are self draining after being closed. Here's an example of a shorter one:

http://plumbing.hardwarestore.com/52-306-frostproof-faucets/frostfree-hydrant-600469.aspx

[badmoonryzn]

What does wind chill have to do with water freezing in a pipe?

moon

[RP]

Nothing.  What Nando is talking about is reducing the wind blowing under the structure.  This allows more of the heat from the earth to remain under there and keep the temperature higher.

You probably know that the temperature of the earth is usually around 50°F year around (depending on latitude and depth).  If you keep the crawlspace really well insulated you could in theory keep it near that same temperature.  In reality just adding skirting will do a lot to keep pipes from freezing.

[willib]

a dirt cheap solution is to use , well ,..dirt

if the pipe comes out of the ground "outside" the building then pile up dirt against the building

if the pipe leaves the ground under the building build a box around the pipe and again use dirt

[Volvo farmer]

Around here we have a thing called a "frost line". The ground can get below freezing up to a depth of about 30". I believe your idea would not work because the dirt above the ground would certainly get below freezing if the dirt 20" below the ground is freezing.

[Nando]

Chilling factor DOES have to affect a lot.

if the temperature is, let's say 40 F with still air and the wind starts the chilling factor under the house will bring the temperature down may below the freezing point of the water, therefore a frozen pipe, the skirt if it can stop or reduce the wind movement below the house then the earth temperature may keep the pipes above freezing temperature.

Same reason why we do cover the outside faucets in winter to avoid freezing due to the Chill Factor.

Chill Factor is the killer in winter.

Nando

[maker of toys]

in additon to what VolvoFarmer said. . . piling up dirt next to a wooden structure is to (in effect) hang out the "free buffet" sign for termites in the summer. Somewhat counterproductive, no? if the structure is stone or concrete, then disregard the above, of course.

Ghurd and Nando's suggestions seem like they have the most going for them. Nando's suggestion also has the benefit of keeping the floor of the building a little warmer, too. . . which might reduce the incidence of ice on the shower floors?

I have seen (at highway rest stops, etc) drinking fountain faucets that drain below the frost line immediately after use. They seem to require a gravel drain field to WELL below frost in order to work, though.

the "keep it flowing" school of thought has some attraction to it, too. if you have some power and lack plentiful water, a small pump that recirculates the water back below the frost line (into a buried coil?) to warm up could do the same thing without losing the water. The same sort of thing is mandated for new construction in parts of california to bring hot water to distant points of use without wasting the 'cold' water already in the pipes.

the pumps I'm familiar with are equipped with magnetic drives to avoid leakage. the motors are often in the range of 1/40th horsepower or so. Similar pumps get used by the Over-Clocking crowd to drive their liquid-cooling rigs. . . . a little ingenuity and a couple Neo magnets could convert one of these to DC or wild AC power? Just a thought.

If you're on a well, one recirculation option that gets used is to just dump the circulated water back into the casing. I've heard that scenario used in wisconsin for heat pumps both in winter and summer. . . . Fine HomeBuilding Magazine did an artcle on this sort of thing about 5 years ago. Wish I could find that issue.  (maybe search for it online. . . "ground source heat pumps" I think is the article title. or maybe "geo-source" yadda.)

-Dan

[badmoonryzn]

I'm sorry, but the wind chill factor is only relevant as a measurement on human skin and it is a measurement of how fast the body looses heat at a given wind speed, 10 mph wind 20 mph wind and so on. If the ambient temp is 40 and wind chill is outside is -10 it means the heat leaving the body is equal to the outside temperature being -10 degrees. If the outside air temp is 40 degrees the wind could blow 500 miles an hour and the temp outside will still be 40. It will not make water freeze because it takes 32 degrees to make water freeze. Look up the scale on google and you will see what I'm talking about. However the wind chill factor is truly a killer. People die when it is 65 degrees outside because with the wind blowing your body heat leaves faster when the wind is moving. Your heat leaves from your body like a heat exchanger. That is the Wind Chill. At 65 degrees with the wind blowing 20 miles per hour removes body heat as if the temp was 45. We might be OK at 65, but we will become hypothermic at 45.

Cheers,

Badmoon

[badmoonryzn]

ARRRR,

Liquid cooled pc chips LOL how about liquid cooled cow chips? I wish someone would put some time into the slowpoke motherboards. I found some wonderful copper heat sinks that keep the processors under 100 degrees that came out of some NASA systems, and they do not drip coolant! I doubt we will actually go any faster until the bottle necked motherboards catch up with the processors of four years ago. I'm still using a 3.0 that's almost three years old, but why change to something that goes no faster and requires a new OS without software support. I don't think so! I'm a gamer and I change my video cards often if needed to play games, but I see no reason to do anything else other that build systems for my customers because they think they need the 1 percent speed increase. When there is a game written for something I have to have, then I will upgrade my motherboard, ram and processor.

Battlemoonryzn

[TimV]

If the air temp is 40 and the wind is blowing  your water will still be flowing......My own opinion not to be confused with fact but works for me.Wind chill on your skin may well be another matter where what it "feels" like is a factor

[d3ejmz]

Back on the wind chill factor.

It has to do with the speed at which a mass will lose heat to the surrounding air. This heat loss of course can only continue down to the temperature of the air itself. With an increase in wind speed, you see an increase in effective temperature differential, which speeds heat loss. Normally a mass will warm or cool the air surrounding it and thermal convection is what moves the warmed air away to be replaced by cooler air. With wind, you have less of this envelope of warmed air clinging to the surface of the mass, and it loses its heat faster, as if the temperature were actually lower than it is. We calculate wind chill factor specifically for human skin, but the principle is valid for car radiators, light poles, wood, brick, etc.

Yours in errant pedantry,

Jim

[Dennisd]

Try http://www.plumbingsupply.com/woodfordutilityhydrants.html they work by having the bottom buried below the frost line,in some gravel for drainage. the actual valve is at the bottom, and a long stem comes up to the visible handle. in the full closed position, a small drain hole is opened allowing the water in the riser to drain out. I have a seven foot frost depth, so my garden facet has a 10'riser, 8' buried and 2' out of the ground so i can get a bucket under it.

[badmoonryzn]

The wind chill factor was some bone headed TV weatherman in Chicago, IL saying one day that the chill factor of wind blowing at a certain speed removed body heat the same as if it was X degrees. Just a relative way of measuring the bodies heat loss in winds of X miles per hour. It had nothing to do with temperature, however it was a relative figure so some smart guy added a scale to it and here we go another erroneous measurement! I  suppose it might have some point, but what? If it is cold wear a damn coat and prepare for it! Never run naked and wet outside in 40 degree temps or you might loose your body heat and succumb to the elements.  Do you see the confusion this bogus measurement has created? Jesus. Many intelligent people have fallen for that one because it sounds good.

moon

[ghurd]

Maybe 'wind chill' is not the proper word.

But take 2 cups of coffee in the same ambient temperature.

Put a fan blowing on one, and it will cool faster than the other.

Convection, and arguably even conduction, will be increased by the flowing air.

Like blowing on a spoon of hot soup.

G-

[TomW]

G-

EXACTLY!

[Brian H]

 Actually, it has more to do with "evaporative cooling" effects on the human skin. It's the same concept that air conditioners exploit, that is, the heat absorption due to the change of state from a liquid to a vapor. Suffice it to say, that if the object in question doesn't perspire, then it's temperature will never drop below the air temperature surrounding it.

 Hope this doesn't muddy the waters even more, but it's a difficult concept to try to explain in simple terms.

 Brian H