Hydro Electric

[DanB]

We got around to finishing the machine and sticking it in the creek on Monday... lots of fun!  I made a page about it here: http://www.otherpower.com/scotthydro1.html

[DAM]

Incredibly nifty, Dan.

One question. It looks from the last picture like it is a splashy affair. Could the whole thing be slowed down to limit the turbulance on the blades to make for a more efficient push? Maybe make the wheel narrower and not use the plenum, and get the full force of the head directly from the 4" pipe?

Thanks for the great page!

Doug

[wooferhound]

I've never made a water wheel before, so I might not know what I'm saying when I say...

Shouldn't the water be coming in on the otherside of the wheel where the water would be falling into the cups of the conduit paddles? it seems that the direction ya'll have the water coming in would make the water bounce right off at angles without giving up all of it's energy, splashing into other parts of the machine, slowing it down.

[RogerAS]

Dan,

Better go get you a Garrett's gravity trap gold pan and do some looking. Anytime I found large ammounts of black magnetic sand I usually found gold, back in my prospecting days. Worth a look! Well, if you own the mneral rights! Look on the inside and downwater bend or behind a big rock, or even in the moss that grows on the rocks near the water level. You guys are in Colorado after all.

RogerAS

[jwilson]

you guys have all the fun! Great project.

[windstuffnow]

   Pretty slick Dan!  I sure wish I had a water source, looks like fun!

Great work

Windstuff Ed

[tecker]

  Very cool. Got to be losing some juice in the water Two part epoxy paint will keep

 the wheel and stator isolated from the wetness . Should do well for the rotor also .

  Thats what is used on chiller tanks and it lasts for years.

 

[RobD]

Nice job Dan,

What do you think is the best alternator in watts for that water wheel, 25 to 50?

RobD

[ROSCOE]

a really cool project, one i'd like to do myself. thanks for the exellent report(s) on this (and other) projects that you do. they are a great help the us newbies (me).i'm on dial-up but the pics come up quick and clear, and well worth the wait.

Roscoe

[DanB]

Could be Doug...

hard to say.  I suspect a little more angle on the vanes might help - perhaps having them slightly narrower too.

As it is, we actually had pieces we made so we could narrow the nozzel a bit, but doing so always cost us power.  My guess, is widening the nozzel would help a little at this point, the way it's setup.

It's interesting that its not very picky about adjustment..  no matter what you do, if water comes near the wheel it makes an amp.  If it's even close to "best" - itll do about... 1.5 - 1.6 amps.  It's not very touchy really...

There is a small area of nozzel adjustment that yields about 2 amps as it is.

[DanB]

Hi Woof -

Not on a wheel of this type.  I actually did try it that way... like an overshot, but output was much lower (about 1 amp).  As it is, the water should go through the middle of the wheel, entering at about 10, or 11 Oclock and exiting around 5 Oclock, it should hit the wheel twice.  That was the idea anyhow, and it does seem to yield best output this way.  But... there is a lot of water splashing around in ways it obviously shouldn't, my guess is it has mostly to do with the width, and angle of the vanes.

[DanB]

Hi Rob - yes, I think 25 - 50 watts @ about 100 rpm is good for this wheel on this site, but with lots more head one would want a more powerful machine.  Thats why the airgap is so adjustable here though, so that I could adjust the output vs rpm to match best with the alternator.  Basicly.. I just kept opening the airgap, (and it kept speeding up) output kept going up to a point, and then started going down... I closed it a touch then and figured that was the "sweet spot" - although the best speed varies with the position of the nozzel and I think as soon as you change the speed then the optimal nozzel position changes, so.. it's the sort of thing you could mess with forever and know for sure that there's still room for improvement.  

[drdongle]

Really outstanding machine, I'm jealous, I'd love to do hydro here only we don't have enough drop or flow to justify it, oh well.

Carpe Vigor

Dr.D

[BurksFallsMan]

DanB: SUperb job in record time !  I am still "thinking" about mine. The infor that I have shows the water coming from the top and to the right side on the picture that you posted above.

The theoretical power available can be calculated  from the flow (Q) in cubic feet per minutes times the Head (H) in feet, divided by 709 to get Kilwatts/Hours.

Then efficiency losses may be in the order of 60 - 70 %.

I wish you were closer to try it on my creek. Now I have close to 100 galons /minute. I will send you a picture or two that I have (drawings) of the Bunki.

Wilson

[Vtbsr]

Hi Danb. I like the way it came out. After looking at the pictures i know what i would try. On the nozzel i would extend the top horz. section to about1/8 " bigger than the dia. of runner so the water will go into the runner and not splash out. The nozzel would be ground to mate right on the outside of the runner.  On the one i tried to make i used plaster and wax to make a smooth transition from 5" dia to the rentangular jet opening. Then i  casted over the wax mould with glass and resin. I even used some old seatbelts with resin to build up the castings. Then i had to remove all the wax so the water would go through. In the runner i put a partition so i had a 4" section and a 8" section giving a 12" total width. My first nozzel was for just the 8" side of the runner. After i got the whole thing done my figures showed i needed only a 1" wide runner. Not to bragg but i have 98' of head with 1000' of 8"  steel penstock. Then i stopped working on it and put a Harris pelton in. About 4" dia pelton wheel mounted to a ford alternator. I needed to go to 48v system because of the 275 feet from turbine to batteries. There would be to much line loss. With this you can vary the field strength if you are using up to 4  jets or less. I have different dia. nozzels 1/8 1/4  3/8 " to vary flow rates. When i run the field way up the alt. slows down and you set it to give max amps running slighty on the fast side. I have to change the brush assembly once a year. If you get a lightning spike the dioeds seem to blow.

[RobD]

Vtbsr,

What's the initial diameter of the pipe running to the pelton wheel. are you going from 1" down to your 3/8 orifice? Also what's your flow rate?

thanks,

RobD

[Vtbsr]

Hi robd, The 1000 ' of 8" dia tapers to a 2 1/2 dia pipe that runs around the turbine. Then there are 4, 1"dia with shut offs runing right to the 4 brass 3/8 nozzels. I have heard a lot of people saying that  tapering the pipe down will get more speed at the jet. This might not be true. I think that the presure in the penstock gives the jet speed. I have 40 lbs. If the pipes are to small you get friction losses and a reduction of head. The flow is 50 to 100 gal/ min.aprox. The 8" pipe could run 5 cu ft / sec at full flow. I could of run 4" pentstock but the 8" was $15 per 20' length at the junk yard. With the low flow i don't take to much water out of the stream. If it is really dry I can put 1/8" nozzels on. I had to figure a dump load very fast when this started charging.I run it into electric hot water heater. Check out www.harrishydro.com

[Gary D]

Hi Dan, Might want to add a disclamer to your page! Any year round flow is subject to the laws of most countries. In the US, you MUST get permission from your county engineer, and he or she will tell you where to go from there ( at least to the Army corps. of engineers). Waterways no matter how small are strictly regulated. While it is legal to buy or build hydrolic rams, waterwheels, and hydro equipment, you must have permission to place them. Of course some creative thinking may be in order there (hollow styrofoam rock comes to mind). Would hate hearing of anyone being made an example of in court!

 As usual your work is greatly appreciated! Neat to see that the turbine only slowed from 160 rpm to 110 for best output! Gives me hope that my baby 1/2" square magnets might work if placed properly! Or should I say my many coils are placed properly. still contemplating if I want to go stealth or legal here;-)  Gary D.

[hvirtane]

It looks really nice.

How much did you do experiments

with the water lead system into the

turbine? I think that it makes

a big difference how it is built.

These kinds of things could really make

a difference, if everybody, who has got

an access to a small creek, would start

using some water power.  

Just a week ago I have given some drawings

of a banki turbine for my friend Taisto.

I will ask him to see your superb pictures

before he will start building his turbine.

He refused to tell beforehand, where he is

going to install his turbine.

- Hannu

[ADMIN]

You're referring to the FERC regulatory nightmare in the USA (a serious nightmare!), plus local water rights laws......fortunately there are a number of reasons this (and most) microhydro installs aren't regulated by FERC.

From what I can tell by my recent research....

If you don't sell power back to the grid, you are exempt from FERC.

If the river you are using is not navigable, you are exempt from FERC.

Our install here qualifies in both regards.

There are of course local laws, and local water rights laws. Here in Colorado, you can make a long and well-paid legal career of water rights. Or you can make $12/hr as a ditch rider, too. It's incredibly convoluted. BUT -- (this is a summary, and not intended to be legal advice. I AM NOT A LAWYER, etc.)

If you don't dam the river, or if you just simply re-arrange the rocks a bit to make a bigger pool so there's more leeway on your intake, you should not have to worry. This is called a "run-of-river" system. No dam is involved, your intake just has to be underwater all the time for the system to function. In our case, the local ditch company could care less.....but,  no dam building. No drying up of trout streams. Don't dry up the stream below during your dam (or pseudo-dam) even during construction, or someone downstream will notice, call the police, and you will be in a hornets nest. The cool thing about micro-hydro is you should never have any need to dam up a waterway...you just need a clear intake that's always underwater, and you can add a few strategically placed rocks to help.

If you build a dam and make a big pond without a permit, your county, your state, and the folks who own your river water will complain. Go "run-of-river" all the way, and most likely you'll never hear a word from them. I'd worry most about the local ditch company that owns the water, if your state water rights laws work that way (ours do). If you already built a big pond and the county signed off on it, you have nothing to worry about...the ditch company's signature will be on your final permit. Folks do that all the time around here, and there is very little regulatory hassle...with most places, it's included in the building permit. A very simple earthern dam, liner, and small pond (less than an acre) is very easy to get a permit for.

DANF

[Gary D]

Hi Dan F., glad to hear that it usually ain't a problem! I totally agree that it shouldn't be, but sometimes it really depends on what side of the bed a govt. official gets out of, so to speak. Just thought it was something that should be mentioned. Maybe I'll get up the nerve to visit the county engineer after all! (can't go stealth after that)  

 My little spring fed trickle usually puts out 1 to 3 gps. even during the worst drought in 20 years. Not worth too much hoop jumping, but could be a good start for an RE. setup. I had hoped to have one wheel up and running long before this, but with the rediculous rains can't seem to much more than mow!   Gaey D.

[Gary D]

Hi Dans', a low teck way to possibly keep the sand out might be with a tee up in the dam with a section of holed 4"sewer pipe and some magnets attached. If your unit does come to a grinding stop, a Fitz overshot waterwheel about 2 ft might fit the bill. At the shaft effeciency was measured at about 92% back in the 1900's. Not sure what the Banki's is or if it would be worth the effort (if you can keep the sand out). Hope it keeps spinning! Gary D.

[Nando]

Dan:

A good project indeed.

I have checked your water power:

6 feet head, 4 inch pipe will produce:

Water velocity open flue : 4 meter/sec = 13 feet/sec

Water volume open pipe : about 31 liter/sec = 8.2 gallon/sec

Head = 3 feet = 0.9 meter

Power available (Watts) = Volume * head * 6 =

31 * 0.9 * 6 = about 167 watts

You aim for about 80 watts, due to the low head.

The conversion of pipe to nozzle needs to be done linearly, which means the pipe needs to be flattened without bulges to avoid water turbulence that will reduce the power dramatically.

The nozzle needs to finish next to the banki blades, about 1 millimeter or 0.025 inches for tight water coupling.

The nozzle needs to have an area not greater than half of the pipe for the water to have pipe pressure and run linearly without turbulence inside the pipe.

The Nozzle should be built to hit at least three blades, ( in reality 45 degrees of banki outer diameter).

The diameter of the banki needs to be done for half of the water velocity, in this case 2 meter/sec, set for the RPM desired.

400. RPM is 6.7 RPS ( Rev Per Second) and with the 2 m/s, the the diameter of the Banki needs to be.
     
2. /6.7 = 0.29 meter ( circumference of the banki)
   
0. 29/3.14 = 0.092 meter or 9.2 cms diameter = 3.6 inches.
   
   

Length of the banki :

Pipe Nozzle area = (3.14 * 0.05^2)/2 = 0.0785 M^2 or 39.25 cm^2 =

Also in English : 3.14 * 2^2 = 12.56 inch^2 /2 = 6.28 inch square nozzle size.

You now need to determine the shape of the nozzle, if 45 degrees then it needs to be rectangular to hit several blades at the same time.

Unhappily the size of your present Banki is extremely large ( size good for several kilowatts of energy).

The Nozzle as shown in the photos has been placed in the opposite side of the Banki.

The water is not going down, is going up the blades, the banki needs to be rotated 180 degrees for the Nozzle water exit to hit the curve of the blades toward the ground.

The generator should be removed from the banki body to avoid splashing and magnetite to accumulate on the magnets.

If you need more info just email me direct, I will assist you, I have Hydro experience.

Regards

Nando

[Nando]

If you have 98 feet head, 1000 feet pipe length and 8 inch diameter pipe you can attain around 9.6 KW of energy, are you getting all that ?.

Nando

[DanB]

Nando...

thankyou for all this excellent information!  Quite interesting.

I may pick your brain some more here if Scott is up for continuing on this project.

Do you mind if I add your comments to our webpage about this?

[Ungrounded Lightning Rod]

Great explanation, Nando.

I see how the bulk of it works (except for the "6" in the 6 * liters/sec * meters of head = watts, which I could probably figure out from the weight of water).

The rules for the turbine are easy to follow, and I get the logic behind about half of 'em.  (i.e. tangential velocity = half of water velocity because you decellerate it from nozzle-flow to a near-stop in two passes through the wheel blades, right?  Blades are cylinder segments and the entry and exit angles can be computed from the relative velocities of the water and the wheel, giving the slow-by-half rule for the first pass.)

What I don't get is computing the flow from the pipe diameter and head:

6 feet head, 4 inch pipe will produce:

  Water velocity open flue : 4 meter/sec = 13 feet/sec

  Water volume open pipe : about 31 liter/sec = 8.2 gallon/sec

I assume there's a standard formula or table for that.  Where should I look?

    thanks

    Rod

[Gary D]

Hi Rod, there are many variables on the flow thru a pipe. Two off the top of my head are: how long a run (longer run at the same head creates more resistance), can the stream fill the pipe fully (stream supply). Your best bet is to use a bucket/barrel and time how many gallons per seconds you get (thru whatever size pipe you can find). Then you can go to a hydro website and get an idea of potential power available for differing heads and flows. Harris hydro is one site... think you can e-mail em with your stats and they will tell you what they have to match your stream's capability (you don't have to buy tho) Have fun! Gary D.

[Vtbsr]

Hello nando, It sounds like you have a lot of hydro experience. You asked about the total power. The reason i ran the 8" dia. penstock was that it was avaliable at the scrap dealer. This stream can slow down with a dry summer. In the winter months there is more flow and i want to up my output in the future. I think i could run 2 Harris peltons. With the 8" there is no difference in presure when all 4 nozzels are open.(40 lbs) If you have any other thoughts let me know. Your ideas on the cross-flow were very good. On the cross flow i built i found a 5' long 2" dia. shaft with a 18" double belt pully on one end. The runner was all 1/4 " thick steel. I never got it going, but i did'nt know if the jet would clear the center shaft and exit to the out side.

[kurt]

http://home.carolina.rr.com/unclejoe/

[Nando]

NO, I do not mind, go ahead and use it as you needed

Regards

Nando

[Nando]

Rod:

The table is not needed; the velocity of a water flowing in a pipe is defined as :

Square root of ( 2 * Head( meters) * 9.81 ( gravity) = meter/sec

I normally do not work with the English system, though I can handle it without any problem, I just convert at the end.

In high School in my native country I had to learn four measuring systems : Metric, English, Spanish, and Roman.

It was found that if you slow down the water by one half of its speed you extract most of the available energy.

[Nando]

DAN:

It seems that you did not pay attention to the part of my message where I indicate that the wheel is been driving backwards/.

You need to rotate the whole affair 180 degrees for the water not to splash up BUT down in a going up stream, inside the banki to hit the other side and add more power to it.

You may attain up to 80 or so watts of energy.

Regards

Nando

[Nando]

Dan:

Rotate 180 degrees and place the nozzle at the center of the banki ( horizontal center) -- 9 O'clock -- and adjust as needed, the water output around 4 to 5 O'clock.

Regards

Nando