Author Topic: dead inverters  (Read 5404 times)

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Gog

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dead inverters
« on: January 18, 2006, 04:01:53 PM »
Ive just had my second no name  12v ( chinese i presume from the awfull manual )1500w  cheap inverter die within seven days of use

I'm not using it hard , just running a freezer for an hour or two a day and cfls and an old 486 laptop in the evening.

It is powered by my fledgling RE system of a 2.2kv petrol gennie that has a 8 amp charger and  a little water

wheel at 2 amps into a couple of n70 auto batts in paralell

The gennie and inverter are in a shed and  the batteries are outside.

Last night the last one failed while running a 14 inch tv so i shot out and got 12.83v on my old fluke to check it wasn't a low .

I don't expect them to last as long as high end machine but this  is silly.

I'm starting to doubt myself.

Is there something I am doing wrong ?

Or are they normally this crappy ?
« Last Edit: January 18, 2006, 04:01:53 PM by (unknown) »

veewee77

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Re: dead inverters
« Reply #1 on: January 17, 2006, 06:06:11 AM »
One thing to make sure of is that the battery connections are secure. This means that if the inverter has big alligator clips, cut those off and put lugs on there and use the bolts on the battery and make sure they are tight.  Even the slightest arc under a load will fry the inverter. And the time it is most likely to hapen is when the refrigerator starts since that is when there is the most load.  You may not even see it.


Doug

« Last Edit: January 17, 2006, 06:06:11 AM by veewee77 »

sandovalch

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Re: dead inverters
« Reply #2 on: January 17, 2006, 06:11:28 AM »
I have an Aims 2500W 12VDC inverter and have had it for more than 1 year in permanent use for almost my whole house (excluding the washing machine, fridge, water pump and water heater). Once I blew up some FETs, but was able to fix it.

It has been running smooth ever since then.

By the way... the manual of this one is crappy, too.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2006, 06:11:28 AM by sandovalch »

ghurd

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Re: dead inverters
« Reply #3 on: January 17, 2006, 07:12:36 AM »
What name is the no name?


I saw a "1500W" at a great price, until I read the fine print.  1500W was the surge, 750W 'continuous' - but only for less than 5 (10?) minutes.  500W for steady power.  By then it was overpriced, and I didn't trust a company who markets with those meathods.  The info was burried in the middle of the instructions.


For Cheap in a non vital use I have good luck with Vector (save the reciept and box just in case. They do stand behind them pretty well). A worthwhile step up is Portawattz for a little more money and a lot more quality.  I never saw an Aims, but several people here like them.


No, even the crappy brands normally are not that crappy.

G-

« Last Edit: January 17, 2006, 07:12:36 AM by ghurd »
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nothing to lose

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Re: dead inverters
« Reply #4 on: January 17, 2006, 07:20:45 AM »
I have the Aims 5kw model, abused it alot, never a problem yet. Yes, manual is not great, I love the way they repeatedly refer to the poower supply.


Poower Supply? Would that be like the dinning table or the ingestive system? Where does a supply of POO come from?


But the inverter has been great! I even dropped mine hard once, rolled acrossed the yard, it not me, all it did was knock the end covers off a couple screws and a board inside slipped out of a slot when the case flexed. That was a hard drop! Still works perfect though. As far as loads, I have ran alot of stuff off it even my lathe and a freezer etc.. and bouncing it around portable like I did alot too, I am suprised I did not mess it up myself.


I never really had the batteries to max it out long term, but it has ran alot of heavy loads great.  Large enough battery bank was my weak link, at the remote house I had no way to charge batteries so I had half of mine in a truck to charge elsewhere and then dump those to the bank at the house with a charger and smaller inverter. Was not great setup but it kept that house off grid anyway and in the long run was cheaper than grid power too figuring in the monthly meter charge and fees to join a co-op etc..


If I had owned that house I would have put up a wind genny (great location) and had a great system there.


I think the smaller Aims inverters are a decent price, I would try one of those, if they are made as good as a 5k then they should last awhile.


Also maybe check your wiring and see if something is causing the inverter to fry. I fried 3 small inverters at the remote house due to bad wiring! It did not bother my 5k Inverter though, luckily!

 I did not know that was the cause till after I did #3. The first 1 had been used outdoors at times and been wet alot, I thought that caused it to fry later. Second one, I was running a large UPS in the house and it was kicking bad back and forth hard from battery to wall power, I thought a surge or such killed the small inverter although it should have powered the load. I was trying to figure out why it was not working when I fried the inverter, the UPS did work on the inverter itself but not in the house. The 3rd one was nearly brand new, never wet, no heavy load or surge, it was working fine then I plugged in some small item to the one house outlet and it shut down the inverter soon as I turned the item on. Now has the same problem the first two have. Tries to turn on and shuts right back off, similar to an overload or dead battery condition. 2 of the small inverters have a LED watts display and when I turn on the inverters the LED display shows watts jumping around from 100 to 300 randomly as the inverter cycles on and off. The other inverter just turns on ok then right back off with the red error led lit. That of course is with nothing plugged into them at all.

 I don't know what was wrong with the house wiring for that oulet, I fried that last inverter and found the outlet was the porblem while I was moving out of the house. Maybe it had common and ground wired together? The outlet seemed to work fine with the 5K inverter but blew 3 of my 300 and 400 watt ones.

« Last Edit: January 17, 2006, 07:20:45 AM by nothing to lose »

Corbie

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Re: dead inverters
« Reply #5 on: January 17, 2006, 07:49:05 AM »
Please see the following note which I copied from the Maplin Electronics website:-


"Please Note: These invertors are not suitable for use with fluorescent lighting, halogen lights or any inductive load. If in doubt, please contact the manufacturer of the equipment you wish to run from the invertor."


- I don't understand why, but this might be what is causing your problem.

Hope it helps.

Corby

« Last Edit: January 17, 2006, 07:49:05 AM by Corbie »

John II

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Re: dead inverters
« Reply #6 on: January 17, 2006, 08:30:26 AM »
I have owned both the cheapies and the professional inverters such as the Trace Inverters that are made to hardwire into your electrical system.


It has been my experience that the heavy duty professional inverters last much longer then many of the bargain units on the market. For some reason they seem to withstand EMF kick back surges from induction motors much better and are more over rated then the cheap inverters. In the long run... the are much more durable.


However Lightning surges seem to kill either one equally fast :)


John II

« Last Edit: January 17, 2006, 08:30:26 AM by John II »

Experimental

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Re: dead inverters
« Reply #7 on: January 17, 2006, 12:36:11 PM »
  Hello Gog,

    After repairing a couple of these cheep inverters, and talking to a professional repair shop -- I have seen and been told, that there is only about three companies building these, and they build for many "brand" names !!

   After takeing several apart, I noted, inside, they were almost identical and appeared to originate from the same source !!

    I found them difficult to repair, and of the couple I did have success with, they didn,t last long, before other associated parts failed -- although the mosfets, seemed quite durable, other small parts weren,t -- just one thing , takeing out others !!

    I finally went to the heavy duty Tripp=lite unit, that weighs in at nearly 40 pounds !!   Expensive, but it lasts !!

    Other than that though, I would mention that a 1500 watt unit, seems fairly lite, to be running a freezer on and I,m of the opinion, that the cheep units, are more suted for running lights -- even though I used a 2500 watt "Mobile power", unit, to run a lot of drills, sabre saw, skill saw, and chopsaw -- it gave up after a couple of months of abuse !!

    The thing is though, you can buy an awfull lot of cheep ones, before you reach the price of a "good one"...Just depends on how important it is to you !!

   Good luck to you and happy building, Bill H......
« Last Edit: January 17, 2006, 12:36:11 PM by Experimental »

Jon Miller

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UPS
« Reply #8 on: January 17, 2006, 01:26:24 PM »
Just get an old UPS and use on of them, make sure its a transformer type i know other people on here like Mos fets but ill stick with a big lump of copper.  Plus there cheaper, cheap or even free ask at a local computer shop.  Saying that I have one to fix and am using a 24volt ups to power my CB equtiment, at least I can talk to people when the powers put :)


« Last Edit: January 17, 2006, 01:26:24 PM by Jon Miller »


ghurd

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Re: dead inverters
« Reply #9 on: January 17, 2006, 02:30:49 PM »
I too had bad luck repairing the cheapies, unless there was an obvious problem. Usually 1 part fails causing a cascade of other failures.  A semi common problem seems to be one strand of wire reaching where it should not.


Not sure how correct it is that there are only 3 companies building them, because I have seen 2 or 3 internal layouts (and quality of worksmanship) for the same part number and UPC. They were all the same on the outside. I kind of figured it was China's current form of a cottage industry?


We use a monster 12V 1100W Tripp-lite too. Not often, but it is Very abused when it does get used, large saws etc. Seems about bullet proof. It isn't very efficient for small loads. Cost is high. (This one was cheap at a pawn shop after Y2K, $40? brand new)


I would certainly avoid anything with a total no name brand, or a brand name that just imports a wide variety of unrelated low priced items for whatever the current fad happens to be.  That means they can make a fast buck selling pure junk.


I have an unproven theory most battery to inverter cables are too small causing problems.

G-

« Last Edit: January 17, 2006, 02:30:49 PM by ghurd »
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dinges

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Re: dead inverters
« Reply #10 on: January 17, 2006, 03:22:19 PM »
Repairing inverter-type power supplies is not trivial.


I have fixed a few switchmode power supplies, but often I failed. Tried my hand at two welding inverters, failed both times. They were 3phase / 380V too. Scary stuff.


The problem is that this kind of equipment is very critical; you'll probably need the schematic (problem 1). The switching transistors/FETs are sensitive and expensive (problem 2). When you replace them, and any other component (the root cause of them blowing in the first place) is still present, it will be a matter of microseconds before the new switchers blow too. It can get expensive very quickly.


Servicing these things is not easy. Designing them is even harder and involves lots of black magic, magic formulas and lots of luck :-/


But every once in a while I get lucky, and it's just a blown fuse, defect secondary rectifier or leaky capacitor. It's things like this that keep me trying to repair the b*st*ards.


Peter,

The Netherlands.

« Last Edit: January 17, 2006, 03:22:19 PM by dinges »
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ghurd

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Re: dead inverters
« Reply #11 on: January 17, 2006, 03:47:10 PM »
YES! Blown fuses.  Sometimes there is an internal fuse. Sometimes it just blew. Sometimes, change the fuse and all is good.

Watch out for the caps.

« Last Edit: January 17, 2006, 03:47:10 PM by ghurd »
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DanG

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Re: dead inverters
« Reply #12 on: January 17, 2006, 05:05:58 PM »
Assembly line "oops" (sabatogue!) probably kills alot of cheap electronics. Poor thermal bond of FETS, diodes, scrs, etc to their heatsinks is probably #1 killer; either through too light hand-tight tourqe or sloppy heastsink compound thinning out under load.


I just saw it again on a Honda clone sinewave generator - 20 in/oz tourqe on a 8x32 screw but too-thick HS compound that will flow away at operating temperatures and inevitably overtemp the component.


A 'good' invertor will have burn-in testing - the cheap ones are just checked for output. HS compund should be a very thin film, just enough to fill irregular surfaces and fastener should be tight. Even rechecking all the heatsink mechanical connections periodically isn't a bad ides.

« Last Edit: January 17, 2006, 05:05:58 PM by DanG »

Experimental

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Re: dead inverters
« Reply #13 on: January 17, 2006, 08:00:16 PM »
 YUP, pretty much what I,m saying ,Peter and Ghurd -- really difficult to repair, and the Chinese will not release schematics for these !!

The quality isen,t what I could call poor, as the components are pretty good, but close tolerence is very critical, and testing the many components is difficult -- I use a "Huntron tracker", that allows testing, in place -- but , you need a good part to compare test patterns against !!

    The problem is often found, then you need to check all associated parts as it only takes one weak component to cascade into others and all to often, that component checked out OK, untill loaded -- then you get to start all over again !!  AND, that is why I finally just went to the "heavy duty" inverter-- I have much better things to do than try fixing inverters --- Like, building new wind gens !!

    The hours I spent trying to fix the few, I managed to repair --- I would have been much better off, working for fifty cents an hour and buying a new one ....

I did  however, learn a lot about electronics and I still don,t know anything, but, more than when I started..

    I find I,m much better at mechanics, than I am at electronics -- so hopefully I can stick to what I know best -- I just hope that Trip-lite, keeps working !!!

   My best to all, Bill H........
« Last Edit: January 17, 2006, 08:00:16 PM by Experimental »

Gog

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Re: dead inverters
« Reply #14 on: January 18, 2006, 03:26:48 AM »
Thanks for the input guys.

Yes the connections are auto terminal type, firmly tightened.

It has the grand name of " Power Inverter"

Interesting comment about sizing, I'd thought 1500w  with 3000 w surge was going to be big enough for my

freezer which pulls about 185w running, I don't know the start current though.


Funny that they have both failed while running a small tv ( different one in each case )


LOL at the lightning comment , It doesn't descriminate, it has no respect for anything we make.


Cheers

« Last Edit: January 18, 2006, 03:26:48 AM by Gog »

ADMIN

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Re: dead inverters - GND-neutral bond?
« Reply #15 on: January 18, 2006, 09:01:30 AM »
Are you bonding your ground (bare wire) and neutral (white) wires together, for example in a standard AC breaker box? Many cheap inverters can't tolerate this! It might mention it in your manual, or it might not, or it might say it in really bad english. But I've seen the '7 days and then dead' syndrome before, and this can cause it...I had a client that replaced 2 Vector inverters before I figured it out. Un-bonding the bare and white wires means the system is running with a floating ground, but that's common on boats and RVs. The building inspector won't pass it, though.

ADMIN
« Last Edit: January 18, 2006, 09:01:30 AM by ADMIN »

coldspot

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Re: dead inverters
« Reply #16 on: January 18, 2006, 11:07:45 AM »
Are the "TV"s" that you are using very old?

Or large?

The older TV's have a HUGE start-up LOAD, (Anti-glazing Coils or something like that)

I have been told by an expert that you can un-hook these coils on your OLDER TV and

then they start-up with a little load. These coils are the ones around the front of the picture tube. And if after extended use you start to see the glazing on the screen-

take a "Soldering GUN", (Not iron) and with it powered up walk towards your TV, (Start all the way across the room), and swirl the gun around in front of you, (like clockwise turning it, start small but by the time you get to the TV the circles should be as large as the picture tube outside diameter or maybe just a bit larger than it).

Doing this with the set on and you will see the glazing dissapear from the set, I think you also need to walk backwards away from it doing the same untill across the room.

He even showed me that this works, (He was THE repair-MAN for SEARS for 30+ years)!

But I'd buy a NEW LCD unit and be happy with it, (My 5" Runs on 12 V DC and came with a FREE 100WATT Inverter, to power the DVD player with, Costed $50 USD).

Yea laugh about 5" BUT, with it sitting on Coffee Table instead of across the room the picture is GREAT, Sterio speakers Dual headphone plug ins, and can be watched from extreme angles with picture still showing well!


Just my $0.02

 

« Last Edit: January 18, 2006, 11:07:45 AM by coldspot »
$0.02

Clifford

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Re: dead inverters
« Reply #17 on: January 18, 2006, 07:52:03 PM »
On my first inverter, I tied the ground to the common...  not good.  Lasted less than one minute.


Oh..  maybe that was my second one.  The first one died with a feedback surge from a 120V charger that I was trying to use to top off my batteries.  It didn't like the common to ground thing, but marginally tollerated it.


Anyway, I've been running a 600W inverter for the last 2-3 months without issues.  I try not to tax it too much though.  I am surprised at how small the electronics are compared to a 1KV APC UPC.


There is an 8KW inverter on E-Bay for about $300 PLUS SHIPPING.  Might be worth trying out.  I got one, but haven't tried it out yet as my solar array is providing me marginal power as it is... The Inverter IS HUGE.  It is supposed to take 16KW Peak Surge.


http://cgi.ebay.com/8000w-power-inverter-12v-in-110out-power-jack_W0QQitemZ5855235815QQcategoryZ3281
4QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem


http://stores.ebay.com/POWER-JACK-SHOPPING-CENTER


Some electrical things are supposed to run with pure sine..   That will take some more testing and experimentation.  It shouldn't be the inverter that would have problems with square wave and modified sine, but rather the items you are feeding (unless you have issues like higher startup current).

« Last Edit: January 18, 2006, 07:52:03 PM by Clifford »

Propwash

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Re: dead inverters
« Reply #18 on: January 19, 2006, 07:50:13 PM »
I am on my third inverter in just a few months. My most recent piece of chinese wizardry is the (heavy duty) Power Express 2200 watt continuous model. It weighs 15 pounds and is quite large compared to the first two that I purchased. When I opened it 3 of the four screws that held the heat sink/casing on were laying in the bottom of the shipping box. I emailed the seller to notify him of this and have yet to get a reply. I purchased the unit on Ebay for 225.00 plus shipping. It came without cables even though the box said they were included. This was made clear on the sellers website. I put the screws back in where they belonged, made cables for it and hooked it up. It ran for about an hour before shutting down. I have found that the high voltage shut off mechanism kicks in at 13volts. I have yet to hear the fans come on but the unit has never even been warm to the touch. The only way I can get a good charge in my batteries is to unhook the inverter, let the mill charge the batteries, wait for the surface charge to soak in and then connect the inverter. I am not running a charge controller and I am sure I need one but if they work like the inverters do it seems like one more thing to go wrong. The inverter is labeled max 15volts and the book states this also. I assume something is wrong with the voltage measuring system in this inverter but I figure it will only be a matter of time before something more drastic will require attention.

   On the plus side I watched my mill in 70mph winds last night. I will admit I was hiding behind my truck a couple of times but she did just fine. My guages are mounted at the base of the mill in a battery box. The few times I dared to get close enough to check them I saw all three 50 amp guages slammed hard over. She was over revving a bit. The mill was furling but not quite early enough. A few tail adjustments will have to be made before the next big storm comes through. GridPower was knocked out here at about 4pm yesterday. It was time for my star to shine. My wife could finally appreciate why I bought all those boxes of magnets, coils of wire, multiple trips to hardware store, three inverters, six batteries, 250' of staywire, 4 turnbuckles, 50 wire grabs, 6 amp meters, 1 battery switch,electric heater,  1 bike speedo for windguage, 3 easter eggs, and lots of pounding, welding, soldering,and hollering.I scurried around hooking extention cords to power strips and running them out the windows to my inverter. Caulked around the cords with towels to keep the driving rain out of the house. I plugged in my electric heater, some lights, the tv and the satellite reciever.  I knew I had hit a home run when she said (that windmill will run our tv). Why of course it will dear and the microwave as well!!


                                  Kevin

« Last Edit: January 19, 2006, 07:50:13 PM by Propwash »

FrankG

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Re: dead inverters
« Reply #19 on: January 21, 2006, 02:27:10 PM »
A "Huntron Tracker!?!?!"... I used to live & die by the Huntron in the days when a health living could be made repairing Monochrome Video cards and aligning the heads on floppy drives...


There are several "Public Domain" circuits that can be made for an O-Scope that approximate the Huntron, but nothing ever seemed to compare to the real thing.

« Last Edit: January 21, 2006, 02:27:10 PM by FrankG »

dinges

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Re: dead inverters
« Reply #20 on: January 21, 2006, 03:41:25 PM »
Frank,


I've asked the same question about a year ago on sci.electronics.design


I was looking at the time at building something like that myself (semi-conductor analyzer and/or hunter-tracker).


You're right, there are some very simple circuit designs around, but nothing that I'd consider worthy of my time/effort. More or less upscaled variants of the 'octopus', basically a transformer, plenty of hits when you do a google search on that term. I recall even some old Heathkit design. There was a kit available that looked pretty interesting (with a lot of possibilities), but the price, plus the fact that I usually only build from scratch and not kit, were the problem.


I'm from a generation that has never even seen a Wiltron hunter/tracker (a.d.1973), but everyone (read: oldtimers :) ) I speak on the matter is enthusiastic about them.


You wouldn't happen to have the schematic for one of those hunter/tracker units, would you? (can't blame a guy for asking...)


Peter,

The Netherlands.

« Last Edit: January 21, 2006, 03:41:25 PM by dinges »
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dinges

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Re: dead inverters - GND-neutral bond?
« Reply #21 on: January 21, 2006, 04:27:53 PM »
So,


does this mean that these pieces of equipment are not UL approved, then? In NL, everything needs a KEMA-keur (KEMA-mark) (or VDE-proof, the German variant) to be allowed to the mains wiring. Or you should arrange for being able to test yourself whether it approves. Yeah right..


And if it's not UL approved, is it allowed on the market?


If anything should happen (fire, caused by the inverter; not impossible), that may mean trouble...


Peter,

The Netherlands.

« Last Edit: January 21, 2006, 04:27:53 PM by dinges »
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FrankG

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Re: dead inverters
« Reply #22 on: January 24, 2006, 07:58:08 PM »
Peter,


No, I don't have any schematics, though I did see that there was a "Vintage" Huntron On Ebay yesterday that is wired for 50hz euro Voltage 240V(?)...


http://cgi.ebay.ca/Huntron-Tracker-Model-1005B-1ES_W0QQitemZ7583765159QQcategoryZ1504QQssPageNameZWD
VWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem


That is the exacty unit (though 60hz/115V) that I used... near featureless, but once you get a sense of the signatures of good, marginal and bad components it's a godsend...


It even has a compare feature, where by with a known good pcb for referance and a common ground you probe the brd pin for pin with a lead in each hand...


If I didn't already have too much on the go I'd seriously consider placing a bid on that unit... But have just recieved the parts I'd ordered to build 7 data logging temperature sensors (enough money spent for this month)

« Last Edit: January 24, 2006, 07:58:08 PM by FrankG »

BigBreaker

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Re: dead inverters
« Reply #23 on: January 25, 2006, 10:32:34 AM »
Just to highlight something said in passing about capacitors:


Inverters will almost always have large capacitors that can hold a deadly charge for days or even weeks.  Before messing around with a "dead" inverter, be sure to identify the capacitors and short them with a high power, low ohm resistor.  Too much current (IE from a short) can damage them.


PS Artic Silver is a thermal compound made for computer heatsinks that works VERY well as a thermal interface.  I recommend it for a loose inverter sink.


PPS It sounds like a home-brew inverter might be better than these chinese cheapies.  Any good plans floating around the internet?

« Last Edit: January 25, 2006, 10:32:34 AM by BigBreaker »

ghurd

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Re: dead inverters - GND-neutral bond?
« Reply #24 on: January 25, 2006, 11:12:06 AM »
Peter,

I have been thinking about this since you posted, but I am lazy. I finally went and looked at some of the smaller inverters.


Notepower 50W, Portawattz 140W, 300W, 600W, Vector 90W, 175W and 400W. I was seeing a pattern, and it is cold out there, so I can back in.


NONE I looked at have a UL, ULC (Canada's UL), CE or anything listed on the package, or visible on the inverters through the package. The Portawattz are well over a year old, so maybe something changed.


I have a feeling the UL is not required, if they are marketed for automotive use.

G-

« Last Edit: January 25, 2006, 11:12:06 AM by ghurd »
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Propwash

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Re: dead inverters
« Reply #25 on: January 25, 2006, 03:40:38 PM »
Thanks for the warning. In the last one I had apart the capacitor tops were popped open so that one must have released its charge ok. Do you think there is a remote chance that the high voltage cut out could be adjustable on this inverter that I am currently using?


                                   Kevin

« Last Edit: January 25, 2006, 03:40:38 PM by Propwash »

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Re: dead inverters - GND-neutral bond?
« Reply #26 on: January 28, 2006, 10:08:49 AM »
Yep, Glen - Exactly....marked for automotive or marine use only.

ADMIN
« Last Edit: January 28, 2006, 10:08:49 AM by ADMIN »

Nothing40

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Re: dead inverters
« Reply #27 on: February 03, 2006, 01:40:15 AM »
Here's A home-brew inverter I've come across online:


http://www.technology.niagarac.on.ca/staff/mcsele/i2k.htm

« Last Edit: February 03, 2006, 01:40:15 AM by Nothing40 »