alaska hydropower blues

[tonzi]

So I just got a estimate on a complete hydro system and man was it depressing. So I am seeking the knowledge of you guys in something the common man can afford and build. I have been through this message board and a few other and have got lots of good info but nothing that fits my site. Which is this. 60'of head, 15-25GPM flow, 150' of pen stock, and about 50' transmission line to my cabin. All I run is a couple of lights, radio, and a laptop sometimes, about 350 watts perday. Have a decent supply of 12v deep cycle batteries and a 800watt inverter. Any info to push me in some direction would be great. Thanks.

[dnix71]

Alaska is a big place without roads to most of those places. The cost of transporting something may be your biggest expense. Will you have to fly it in?

Second, what's the weather like? Just cold, or with lots of ice/snow and wind?

How much of the year does the water flow?

If you stay during the winter, solar won't be much help and if the creek freezes, then the only free electric will be from wind.

You could run low voltage dc easily 50 feet. 48 volt or less. A 48 volt dc setup would be more efficient. If your appliances are 12v just tap out one battery at a time.

You have to have a way to dump the excess power when the batteries are full, just like with wind.

[ghurd]

Pointing out the obvious?

Guessing that means 350 watt hours per day.

Add 10% for slop for 385WH.

With 12V, that's 32AH per day.

And 24/7, so 32AH / 24H = 1.34A into the battery.

That is easy.

Joe's Water Wheel for example.  2A with a furnace blower, Ametek, and log that fell in the stream.

http://www.otherpower.com/otherpower_experiments_waterwheel.html

I wouldn't use an Ametek, because of the brushes and sort of high coil resistance.

I would probably use a GE ECM, because no brushes, less coil resistance, and the long shaft.

It doesn't need to be big or expensive of the business end.

I have a 3.5 x 3.5" mini-ECM motor which makes more power than you are asking for.  I would Not use it either, but it gives you the idea.

The fun part is deciding what you do Not want to use, then seeing what is left!

G-

[hydrosun]

You have enough head to use a pelton and an unmodified car alternator to produce 12 volts. Get an older non internal regulated alternator like the Motorcraft 70 amp. Either buy a pelton from Harris or do like I did years ago and force thread a soft aluminum pulley onto the shaft of the alternator. I cut slots around the pulley and epoxied  sheet metal that I then bent into small buckets. The alternator could be mounted on a lid of a bucket and the nozzle aimed through the side of the bucket. I had some simple nozzles that were threaded end caps on 3/4 inch pvc pipe. You could buy brass nozzled from Harris for $5 each, but it's not necesary  Nothing fancy or as efficient as a real pelton with a permanent magnet generator but you would still produce enough for your needs. With 15 gpm and 60 feet head and 30% efficiency you would produce 60 watts and 1400 watthours per day.  With a Harris Permanent Magnet system the output would more than double but if you don't need the power what for.

Chris

[zeusmorg]

 You have enough hydroelectric there to build a decent sized system, which is probably what you were quoted..

 Your resources could easily get you a 65 w system, 47 KWH a month.

 So it would be relatively easy to build a less efficient system that would easily handle your needs.

 You could use a pelton wheel and a redesigned alternator (automotive) which is common,

maybe even an overshot wheel and a 3 phase motor, those are easy conversions too.

 Your biggest problems would be freezing in the winter, which you would have to take into consideration when designing your own system, which I'm sure you've already realized.

 It would mainly depend on your abilities to construct things, and what you have easily available.

 Once you've read up on hydroelectric designs a bit and have some ideas as to what you want to construct, drop your ideas here, and we'll do our best to help you with the finished design.

[dnix71]

Here is a bucket micro hydro used in Guatemala with a modified car (permanent magnet) alternator.

http://blog.makezine.com/archive/2008/06/bucketborne_hydroelectric.html?CMP=OTC-0D6B48984890

has more details.

He had more head to work with, but it doesn't cost much to make.

[ghurd]

Hard freeze seems to be a common concern.

Is the installation near Fairbanks?  South-East of Glacier Bay?  North Slope?  Aleutain Islands?

They told me Cleveland gets more snow accumulation than Sitka, because it gets and stays colder in Cleveland.  Their words.

G-

[jonas302]

a good build page with lots of pics

http://www.otherpower.com/scotthydro1.html

[tecker]

There's some good hydro designs on youtube .

[Todd a]

I think the one on that link above my post is a good design.  They had to increase the air gap to get it to spin faster.  The had a much lower flow than it sounds like you have.    You might be able to make a wider version and get get much higher RPM and use a tighter air gap.  Something like that should be able to do 1kw easy.

As an option and since you are using 12v batteries you could just do a car alternator.  It already comes with a voltage regulator and is cheap.  Go to a junk yard and get a few pulleys and a belt so you can gear up the RPMs on the generator (car alternators require pretty high RPMs, but can output quite a lot of power).  This is not a good idea for wind power as the car alternator requires power for the magnets and when the wind is too low it will drain the batteries.  With a water wheel you get constant power.  The problem is that car alternators are not made to run 24/7 for years, but you can get them cheap and likely get5 about a year out of them.  Even new you can score some for $50 online.

The other thing you might consider is to place the invertor near the water wheel as DC run over longer ranges requires thicker cables and increases the voltage drop.

[tonzi]

I have been looking around for a EMC motor, but there a lot of shapes and sizes. What in important to look at when getting on. Also I was thinking of welding a pelton wheel to the shaft. how far should the wheel be from the motor? Is it important to keep the motor dry. Thanks.

[ghurd]

The size and shape of the Motor is always the same.  I think.

I have at least the 1/3, 1/2, 5/8, 7/8 and 1 HP versions.  At least they are very close.  Too cold for me to go measure them.

The "Brain" container changes.  The older style has a white cast AL end cap.  The newer style has a black or grey tin can.  Another style has the brain in a seperate can, connected to the motor with a wire.

Higher HP is more efficient at lower output.  It is easier or more efficient to get 5A from a 1HP than a 1/3HP.  Not much difference at the low power levels you are asking for.

I never did hydro.  No falling water around here.

I would want my motor dry!

I would Not weld to the shaft.  The bearings will need changed sooner or later.

The shaft is 1/2" dia D-type, 5.5" long.

I would put the water parts on a shaft and bearings.  Then couple it to the motor shaft.

My understanding is the factory-made Peton is designed to run very fast.  They are very balanced and exact, meaning expensive.

ECMs do not need much speed.

A factory wired 1/3HP reaches 12V charging voltage at about 130 RPM.  

Basic Jerry Rig (one snip and add 3 wires) will be better output for 12V and reaches charging voltage at about 220RPM.

The over 1/2HP should have much more internal wiring modifications.

Some kind of home brew Banki-Michell would be cheap and easy.  I recall someone here posting their PVC version that worked well.

That said, I have seen very old Peltons that didn't look built to very tight specs.

Saw some big ones in Juneau, Gold Creek Salmon Bake / Wagner Mine.

http://www.otherpower.com/images/scimages/2050/LgPeltons2.JPG

Hydrosun's couple pulleys and some home brew buckets would be simple enough?

Lots of options.  About anything will get you the 2A, with a bit of tinkering.

G-

[ascii122]

Your setup sounds like mine and I make around 90 watts, but i'm upgrading to 2 inch soon.

I built mine out of a wind blue PMA and a pelton wheel cased in an olive barrel.

http://www.homebrewhydro.com

Once you can turn a shaft you can make power -- those off the shelf systems are probably better but they cost big $$$$

hope that page helps

-z

[spinningmagnets]

tonzi, I haven't built a hydro system yet, but I hope to own one when I retire.

With all the central heat in buildings in Alaska, I would assume that Ghurds ECM motors would be pretty common, and easy to get parts and replacements for.

I would recommend designing to follow some well-established principles. Most Pelton/Turgo's Ive seen have a vertical shaft with the gen on top, and are direct-drive. Its not hard to find industrial motor shaft couplings, they look like two hands with fingers interlocked with a rubber "star" in the middle.

I would not hesitate to use wood and plastic in the prototype phase, there will be changes along the way. Once you have it sorted to your satisfaction, you can make a significant one with proper materials.

You said you have a penstock, is there a diversion creek for excess overflow (fish regulations vary?) or do you have an overflow pipe passing through your dam?

Even with the top half of your penstock freezing solid, I would have assumed your turbine feed-pipe draws water from a middle elevation of the penstock level. Below the bottom of the ice, but above the mud-floor?

60' of head is very useful, but on a slope, I'm assuming its a 200' (or so) run of pipe to the turbine? I'm going to guess the pipe must be insulated to prevent freezing in winter.

I don't think it would be too hard to build a Turgo from scratch. The way I understand it, A Pelton has split cups and the water jet shoots at the rim inline with the disc. Half the jet water flows to one side, and half to the other.

A Turgo has only one curve. On a vertical shaft hydro-unit the jets would be in-between the gen and turbine, the water would shoot down at a 45-deg angle, flow through a smooth 90-deg curve, and exit out the bottom. Using at least two jets (one on each side) would remove any side-loading on the bearing.

The prototype could use PVC pipe sections as the turbine blades, but stainless steel hydraulic tubing could be acquired for a more substantial unit. It would look something like this:

http://www.fieldlines.com/comments/2007/3/1/5259/19738/25#25

Buying properly engineered Pelton/Turgo "spoons" to attach to your own disc should be relatively affordable, but I was shocked when I saw the prices for these injection-molded plastic items. You could buy one, and make a silicone mold, then cast your own aluminum/brass (from cartridges?) using "lost-wax" method.

http://www.artesanto.co.uk/ho