Author Topic: Reinventing the siphon  (Read 3415 times)

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TorchLitHill

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Reinventing the siphon
« on: August 27, 2005, 02:24:33 PM »
Another hypothetical siphon question, if like a bullet exiting a barrel of a gun is more efficient in its velocity and trajectory coming out of a spiral cut barrel, would a siphon be more efficient if a helical pattern was in the outcharge flow tube, over a fair distance?
« Last Edit: August 27, 2005, 02:24:33 PM by (unknown) »

TomW

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Re: Reinventing the siphon
« Reply #1 on: August 27, 2005, 08:32:44 AM »
TLH;


I think you seriously misunderstand whats going on with a rifled barrel and said projectile.


T

« Last Edit: August 27, 2005, 08:32:44 AM by TomW »

Nando

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Re: Reinventing the siphon
« Reply #2 on: August 27, 2005, 09:58:10 AM »
The spiral cut in a rifle barrel is used to maintain the bullet in a flatter trajectory.


If you take a liquid and forced it to move in a "spirally" way, the friction and the drag will spray the stream all over when exiting the nozzle, instead of the stream coming out straight when the nozzle is internally straight.


One needs to remember that it is a liquid and not a solid.

Liquids are not very "obedient" followings certain "directives".


This reminds me of a country in Europe/Asia assassin secret agents that had guns frozen to be able to shoot some kind of bullets that when warm melted and evaporated therefore leaving no bullet traces in the wounds.


Nando

« Last Edit: August 27, 2005, 09:58:10 AM by Nando »

Phil Timmons

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Re: Reinventing the siphon
« Reply #3 on: August 27, 2005, 12:07:01 PM »
Whether a spiral makes a difference or not, I have to give you credit on creative thinking.  I enjoy that.


Can you bring me up to speed a little?


I follow that discharge nozzle shapes can create different: flow speeds, volumes, distance of discharge . . . .


Is the object of more energy in a siphon to create:


A.  A stronger "draw" or suction?

B.  A stronger discharge?

C.  Both

D.  Neither, instead it is _______.


Thanks.

« Last Edit: August 27, 2005, 12:07:01 PM by Phil Timmons »

Ungrounded Lightning Rod

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Re: Reinventing the siphon
« Reply #4 on: August 27, 2005, 12:37:45 PM »
The spiral cut in a rifle barrel is used to maintain the bullet in a flatter trajectory.


And also a more controlled trajectory, making successive rounds from the same barrel hit in a tighter grouping, allowing better aim.


It does this by spinning up the bullet so that it acts as a gyroscope and keeps its narrow face toward the apparent wind of its motion rather than tumbling randomly.  This steals some of the energy from its speed initially, and it travels more slowly down the barrel and in the early part of its flight.


But the gain from lowered drag soon surpasses this loss, so it travels farther and arrives moving faster (as well as closer to the aim point) after a long flight.  Meanwhile, the energy initially stolen for the spin is still essentially all there, rather than having been lost to air friction, and is delivered into the target along with the energy from the remaining forward momentum.


Spinning the water in a siphon will likely just slow it and give it more friction with the pipe, reducing both flow and outlet pressure.

« Last Edit: August 27, 2005, 12:37:45 PM by Ungrounded Lightning Rod »

rotornuts

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Re: Reinventing the siphon
« Reply #5 on: August 27, 2005, 03:31:34 PM »
It's possible maybe that a spiraled flow may achieve a higher velocity in the pipe thereby improving suction at the intake end. Since you care little about the what happens to the flow when it leaves the pipe I say do an experiment.


Mike

« Last Edit: August 27, 2005, 03:31:34 PM by rotornuts »

TorchLitHill

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Re: Reinventing the siphon
« Reply #6 on: August 27, 2005, 08:20:36 PM »
The answers C if at all possible.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2005, 08:20:36 PM by TorchLitHill »

maker of toys

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Re: Reinventing the siphon
« Reply #7 on: August 27, 2005, 11:33:54 PM »
artistic merit:  10/10

logic: 2/10.


having the brains to ask some other people  "hey, whaddya think of this?"  before building something that won't perform as expected:  +20 bonus points.


<I'm laughing at myself here. . .  I can remember when I'd have gone through 6 hardware iterations of something like this before I realized my theory had a flaw in it. . .>


all other things being equal, a flow that rotates as it travels down a pipe will have a higher velocity relative to the pipe wall than one that does not. this is not an efficient state of affairs.


to see the effect of a water stream rotating as it leaves the nozzle, look no further than the nearest airless squirt bottle. . . the kind used for windowcleaner, etc.  

the liquid is caused to rotate so as to improve atomization using centrifugal effects. . .  and you can feel the difference in back pressure between 'stream' mode and 'spray' mode when you pull the lever.  so, in the case of a nozzle, you would actually dissipate energy with a rotating jet.


in fluid dynamics, you will find that the most efficient way to move a fluid is to do everything you can to reduce turbulence.  turbulence, in some ways, resembles a rotating flow; it has the property of transferring energy from the body of fluid out to the 'boundary layer' which is slowed by friction with a surface and viscosity effects.


the usual ways to reduce turbulence losses are to use very smooth surfaces in contact with the fluid, and to minimise the area of that surface.  also, reducing the the number of turns and cross-section changes will help.  Reducing the velocity gradient is important, too--  if you start by acknowleging that the fluid in contact with a surface (pipe wall, mill blade, wing, duct, stream bed, car body, whatever) is traveling at zero velocity relative to that surface, and think about what viscosity will do to a higher-speed flow further from the surface, the best course of action should be obvious and logical. . . . get as much of the flow as far from any surface as possible.


in our terms, all of ^^^that  effectively means using the biggest diameter, smoothest pipe that will flex to follow your routing that you can afford, and to use it in the longest runs between manditory joints that you can manage.  


my first choice if I were aiming for maximum energy capture (and hang the cost), would be large-diameter thin-wall copper refrigeration tube, well protected fom dents, and rolled into place from a spool. . . .  though sch 40 PVC of the largest practical size would work well, too.

« Last Edit: August 27, 2005, 11:33:54 PM by maker of toys »

hobot

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Re: Reinventing the siphon
« Reply #8 on: August 27, 2005, 11:42:07 PM »
Actually concept is correct in as far as a stablized

bullet is more streamlined than a tumbling one but maybe

if there were a LOT of tumbling bullets as in molecules or

particles some rifling would indeed speed the flow for power.

Picture water drains or emptying a jug.


I think this site is along the lines orginal poster was seeking.

http://www.frank.germano.com/waterpower.htm

Victor made his fame by building log chute in Mt's using minimal

water source and lumber using rifling and grooves to swirl water

and lift and transport heavier that water logs that all thought were

over size to even fit in the chute.

'Living Water' book has fascinating insights that extends to the

use of iron tools in the soil and how to grow stuff where it otherwise

couldn't, hoow to preserve springs and more.


Vikor used the velosity princile so again rifling concet could

apply here too as in better sealing for more bang for the buck?


Thinking out the smooth bore barrels on vertical vs horizontal turbines

and riding high in like rag doll in a big spinnaker sail

What IF a power turbine/altenator was placed in a spinaker like

wind funnel to focus the velosity/power concentration?


hobot

Arkansas

« Last Edit: August 27, 2005, 11:42:07 PM by hobot »

TorchLitHill

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Re: Reinventing the siphon
« Reply #9 on: August 28, 2005, 12:20:57 AM »
Yea, I've already found his work, and am enjoying it, am reading his theoriums on vorticies, pretty interresting stuff.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2005, 12:20:57 AM by TorchLitHill »

TorchLitHill

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Re: Reinventing the siphon
« Reply #10 on: August 29, 2005, 06:25:47 AM »
Has anyone out there made a hand pump siphon out of, say, 2 inch pvc useing a large home made squeeze bulb, or bellows type config?

If did, how did it work?

On the matter of SPEOS, IS THERE ANY ENERGY IN THIS CREEK? has anyone heard from him, I sent him some pictures I drew up because I couldn't get them to upload to this forum, but haven't heard any reply.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2005, 06:25:47 AM by TorchLitHill »

ghurd

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Re: Reinventing the siphon
« Reply #11 on: August 29, 2005, 08:16:17 AM »
I made some long ago. Piston type.

They worked OK I guess.

My problem fitting parts, as everything had to be off the shelf parts.

Rubber washers for the 'piston rings'.

Rubber washer in a PVC reducer coupling and a marble that gravity held sealed, for the valves.

Once it was flowing, it could have been turned upside down to get the marbles out of the way.

Maybe it'll give you an idea.

G-
« Last Edit: August 29, 2005, 08:16:17 AM by ghurd »
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Phil Timmons

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Re: Reinventing the siphon
« Reply #12 on: August 29, 2005, 10:31:18 AM »
hmmm, pondered this a bit . . .


No bright ideas on increasing the suction side (with its own energy)


However on the output a rather high boost is possible.  What comes to mind is some sort of "flow-by" for the main portion of the fluid, but using that flow-by to power a pump to increase the output pressure from the portion that was not allowed to flow-by.  


Another output pressure enhancer could be air bursts -- I think that is sometimes used by firefighters to increase the range of their hoses/nozzles.  Again this could be powered by the "flow-by."

« Last Edit: August 29, 2005, 10:31:18 AM by Phil Timmons »

TorchLitHill

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Re: Reinventing the siphon
« Reply #13 on: August 29, 2005, 10:38:59 AM »
Thankx for the marble concept, I'm going to start on that design, do you have any pictures of it?
« Last Edit: August 29, 2005, 10:38:59 AM by TorchLitHill »

ghurd

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Re: Reinventing the siphon
« Reply #14 on: August 29, 2005, 10:53:37 AM »
No photos. That was maybe 20 years ago.

Just looked like something from under a sink, with dishwasher and icemaker drain, installed by someone who didn't know how to do it. LOL.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2005, 10:53:37 AM by ghurd »
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TorchLitHill

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Re: Reinventing the siphon
« Reply #15 on: August 29, 2005, 11:40:36 AM »
The reason that I ask about the large pcv siphon is that I've got a weighted impeller that I am going to attach inside the bottom of the input, seeing that once it starts to spin and gains some momentum, whether it has any marked improvement, it may not but it seems like an interresting concept?
« Last Edit: August 29, 2005, 11:40:36 AM by TorchLitHill »

TorchLitHill

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Re: Reinventing the siphon
« Reply #16 on: August 29, 2005, 11:41:19 AM »
I mean pvc...
« Last Edit: August 29, 2005, 11:41:19 AM by TorchLitHill »

french town

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Re: Reinventing the siphon
« Reply #17 on: August 29, 2005, 08:09:24 PM »
    M.O.T.

  I like your thoughts,(makes sence)even if you could get the entire body of water to twist (I think not) it would be greatly slowed. would it not?

  I have a question everyone but me may know the answer to, but it troubles me, given a pipe 10in dia. 50ft long 8ft of head, were in the pipe is the most power, can a draft tube be too long?. can a bell shaped intake realy increase press. my thinking is to create a non turbulent flow in the pipe under water, put a prop in the pipe, the flow in the pipe should be faster then the outside water.? would the prop still read a head?.

                          woundering Sam.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2005, 08:09:24 PM by french town »

maker of toys

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Re: Reinventing the siphon
« Reply #18 on: August 30, 2005, 03:03:15 PM »
I'm assuming that the slope is more-or-less linear on the 10" pipe. . . and that your rotor will be completely submerged.


in that case, you can extract the most energy (all other things being equal) at the lowest point in the system, as you will have the most static pressure, and can develop more differential pressure across your rotor before running into cavitation.  (which WILL occur any time you have a pressure (dynamic OR static) in the liquid lower than the local vapor pressure. . . and is a frequent problem for grid/ commercial hydro)


if you are running an 'impulse' turbine (where the water only impinges on part of the turbine's rotation,) then there is no other place to put it than on the bottom.


a bell-mouth ('inducer') is useful for reducing turbulence due to change in cross-sectional area in higher-speed flows.  (like maybe 10f/s or higher in water . . . depends on the shape of the bell, etc. where the benefit would start to accrue.  for a 50' pipe, a inducer would be a minor improvement at best, as the long wall would quickly override any gains from the initial laminar flow.  (but try it. . . your milage may vary, and an inducer can't HURT anything)


However, the longer the pipe, the more wall friction/ turbulence you're going to encounter, so I'd mimimize the length as best i could.


(for a hydraulic 'ram' pump, there may be some benefit to a longer inlet pipe-  but I dunno much about those pumps, and besides, that's getting off topic.)


-Dan

« Last Edit: August 30, 2005, 03:03:15 PM by maker of toys »

TorchLitHill

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Re: Reinventing the siphon
« Reply #19 on: August 30, 2005, 08:44:13 PM »
any thoughts out there on this latest aberration?

I am deffinatley into learning more about siphons and how they might be looked at differently.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2005, 08:44:13 PM by TorchLitHill »

Kwazai

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Re: Reinventing the siphon
« Reply #20 on: August 31, 2005, 10:33:37 AM »
I suggest you look at the hydraulic ram pump- the stirling pump detailed in another post is a good example.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2005, 10:33:37 AM by Kwazai »