Author Topic: I need a "lift" and your help (Read 5032 times)

Linda · « **on:** September 28, 2005, 05:56:48 PM »

Damn this Western drought! My beautiful spring fed pond is drying up. I'm looking for ideas on how to get water from the nearby fast moving stream into my pond. The stream is about 4 feet below the pond level, so if I could lift the water this high I could the let gravity and a pipe transfer the creek water to the pond. This needs to run year round, and the stream is year round but in the dry season it's only about 6 inches deep. I can easily get a foot or so of drop by felling a tree over the stream bed, and this will give me a little more depth too. What is the easiest way to convert the force of stream flow into lift?

Linda

cr8zy1van · « **Reply #1 on:** September 28, 2005, 01:09:01 PM »

I couldnt find the exact name for this, but I have seen these used in the past. Not sure how effective they are

Basically, a waterwheel, with scoops/buckets attached to one side. As the waterwheel rotates, it drags cups/buckets that fill with water. These then deposit the water into a collector one cup at a time, a few inches/feet higher. Of course there may be more effective options out there, but this has been used for years.. Apart from a functional water lifter, it would also be a conversation piece!:)

crashk6 · « **Reply #2 on:** September 28, 2005, 03:02:35 PM »

Hey Linda,

If you can get any head from the stream you might be able to use a hydo-ram pump. If you have the needed conditions it would work well, be an easly managable size to construct, and need absolutly no electric power.

--

crashK6

hiker · « **Reply #3 on:** September 28, 2005, 04:49:48 PM »

heres a simple fix--they used this idea for gold dredging years ago--[high pressure water hose]..or your dam idea should work if you tap the bottom of the dam where the high pressure water is..[you can make water travel uphill]..........

excuse the crude picture--never could draw.....

tinker · « **Reply #4 on:** September 28, 2005, 07:39:25 PM »

http://www.ata.org.au/articles/65watwel.htm

wdyasq · « **Reply #5 on:** September 28, 2005, 08:19:18 PM »

http://www.animatedsoftware.com/pumpglos/ram_pump.htm

http://www.lifewater.ca/ram_pump.htm

good places to start,

Ron

pyrocasto · « **Reply #6 on:** September 28, 2005, 09:47:22 PM »

What he said, I've got one and it works great. Any height you need, or any flow.

If you just need a couple of feet though maybe go with the first picture. Spiral pump if you need to go up a good few feet, or a good few hundred feet.

Flux · « **Reply #7 on:** September 29, 2005, 02:01:56 AM »

Several good ideas here. In your case I don't think the ram will do it with the head you can get.Pity as it is the easiest.

The 6" water level is a restriction but with care you could get by with the dipper wheel or the spiral pump. the other option is a paddle wheel driven Archimedes screw and may suit your low head better than a spiral which is better suited to greater head. If you start with a plastic drain pipe about 8" diameter and long enough to give your head at an angle of less than 45 deg you can wrap 3 or more plastic tubes around it and fix with cable ties.

You will need to keep your paddle wheel fairly well up so that you have enough torque. If you could run the paddle wheel in a gap in your log dam where velocity is higher it would give you more speed and output.

Flux

MaxFlow · « **Reply #8 on:** September 29, 2005, 07:54:04 AM »

Useing the above diagram, instead of useing buckets, you can wrap a spiral of flexable pipe around the wheel, and each time it goes back around it pushes water back up through the tube, at the axel you would have the exit point of the flow.

You could use the plastic pipe used for diverting gutter water, I know it comes in 4 inch diameters around here, if you have enough flow force, just wrap another concentric winding and get double the flow.

Do you have a picture that you can upload of the stream, closest to where you want to divert it.

PS, someone might say that you would have to have the water piped out of the axel, but thats not nessesary if on the outflow side of the wheel the axel is longer to the brace, you could have a collecter and diverter between this.

If your interrested in this thought let me know, I'll draw you up a picture of what I mean.

MaxFlow · « **Reply #9 on:** September 29, 2005, 08:05:39 AM »

sorry didnt see Wild in Alaskas link, http://www.ata.org.au/articles/65watwel.htm, before posting.

MaxFlow · « **Reply #10 on:** September 29, 2005, 09:25:47 AM »

Another good link on the spiral pump, http://www.lurkertech.com/chris/eco/pump/tailer/

Linda · « **Reply #11 on:** October 01, 2005, 12:42:50 PM »

Thanks dcr8zy1van for the diagram, it is somewhat like what I'd envisioned. I like the concept of combining this with the spiral pump and will persue this further. Linda

Linda · « **Reply #12 on:** October 01, 2005, 01:02:11 PM »

MaxFlow,

Thanks for your help, and yes I sure would appreciate a sketch. This "spiral" pump sounds like it operates on the same principle as a "sling" pump, have you heard of this? I ordered a sling pump and tried it and had only one problem, the pump is secured at only one point (up stream) and then it floats free in the creek and rotates. With each rotation the hose inside takes a gulp of water followed by a gulp of air. The pump was able to lift water to about 8 feet which was great, but since the device floated free it would wave back and forth in the creek bed, bottoming out and not staying parallel to the flow thereby stopping operation. If I can build a device that will be firmly anchored on each side of the creek, using the paddle wheel method I can then hold it secure. I'll look for a picture of the creek for you. I would go take one now, but have misplaced my cable for uploading my pics from my camera, How aggravating! Where can I go for detailed designs on a spiral pump? I'll check out the links that you and others have posted.

Thanks, so much,

Linda

Linda · « **Reply #13 on:** October 01, 2005, 01:08:42 PM »

CrashK6,

A ram pump was my first thought too, so I bought a book "All about Hydraulic Ram Pumps" and learned that I need 4 feet of head. Unfortunately the only way I can get 4 feet of head is to run a supply pipe up creek into my neighbor's property! I don't think he'd like that too much. So I'm going to have to persue the spiral pump or the "Archimedes" method. Thanks again

Linda

Linda · « **Reply #14 on:** October 01, 2005, 01:11:45 PM »

Another good idea, but I think this will again put me in my neighbor's pasture! I've got to stay a little closer to home.

Linda · « **Reply #15 on:** October 01, 2005, 01:14:12 PM »

Chris,

Which one do you have? Please explain more

Thanks,

Linda · « **Reply #16 on:** October 01, 2005, 01:18:13 PM »

Flux,

I'm intrigued by the "a paddle wheel driven Archimedes screw". What is this, How does it work, and where can I get more information and some designs? You guys are all great, what ideas!

Thanks so much,

wdyasq · « **Reply #17 on:** October 01, 2005, 08:36:51 PM »

Linda,

I helped a friend play with ram pumps long enough ago I forget the numbers - But, it was well under one foot and we pumped over 20' - IIRC. The secret was a straight run on the 'ram line', a sweep to a vertical 'head' pipe and an output pipe to the tank. I doubt we were pumping 2% of the pipe flow but we had an unlimited flow and it ran 24/7.

Ron

pyrocasto · « **Reply #18 on:** October 01, 2005, 09:22:27 PM »

I've got the spiral paddle wheel type. http://pyronet.50megs.com/RePower/pump.htm

Though not enough water flow for a paddle wheel so I put a water wheel with it. Mine has 100 ft of pipe and will pipe up to 30 or so feet vertical. Very easy, and very nice to have for the right situation, such as where nothing else pump wise will work. (like my place)

Flux · « **Reply #19 on:** October 02, 2005, 09:59:59 AM »

This one is driven by a small dc motor fed from a windmill. You could do the same with a solar panel, but you could extend the shaft to the right and add a paddle wheel to drive it, we didn't have enough water to do it that way.

<BR<p>
There is also a small ram supplying the same lake. This has a head of 2 ft and is about the minimum for totally reliable operation. I have run them at 18" head but you need a fair delivery head to keep them reliable at that. In your case with plenty of water, efficiency doesn't matter much and a ram may still be possible but if the head changes much with stream flow it may cause you problems. Without special valves and a lot of care 3 ft is desirable for a ram.

Flux

Nando · « **Reply #20 on:** October 02, 2005, 02:02:22 PM »

LINDA:

First tell me what is the head from the edge of your property to the end of your property including the length of the stream between both points.

Second: when measuring the head keep track of the head along the measurements to determine possible places for the Turbine placement.

Just with a few feet of head you may have enough to send water up the pond ( also I need height differentials and length of possible pipe.

I have done, what you want several times, with heads, as low as, 2 or 3 feet.

Regards

Nando

Linda · « **Reply #21 on:** October 02, 2005, 02:21:29 PM »

Ron,

That sounds like a possibility, I think I follow it, but, it would help if I had a sketch, can you draw me one? One more question, I've been told that Ram pumps make a BIG BANG while they are operating, is that true?

Linda · « **Reply #22 on:** October 02, 2005, 02:29:16 PM »

Flux,

Thanks so much for this info. Is the rod shown in the picture wound with a "hose"? Does the Archimedes Screw operate on the same principle as the Spiral Pump? Do you know of any websites that would provide deatiled information and design info. on this? Do you know if a Ram pump will make a lot of noise? I've been told it does.

Thanks again for the help.

Linda · « **Reply #23 on:** October 02, 2005, 02:34:40 PM »

Chris,

Thanks so much, with all the great information you guys have I've become very optimistic that I can solve my problem. Last night I dug out and dusted off my old college physics book and now I have to dust dust off some old brain cells too. LOL I'll let you all know how things progress as I learn, build and test. This is great fun.

Linda · « **Reply #24 on:** October 02, 2005, 02:44:20 PM »

Nando,

I'm headed outside right now to do some estimating and will provide you with more data. I don't have any sophisiticated equipment to do these measurments but I thought I'd rent a surveyors laser level tomorrow and get some accurate numbers. Also I am going to do a crude flow measurement today, so I'll be getting back with you on this. Thanks so much.

Flux · « **Reply #25 on:** October 03, 2005, 01:35:53 AM »

Yes the central steel tube (industrial extractor pipe) is wound with hose used for pond pumps( cheap and easy to bend)

The spiral and screw pumps work on a slightly different idea. In the screw pump there is no compression. A quantity of water sits in the low point of the pipe and is "screwed" up to the top where it runs out. Each loop of pipe has a moving pool of water.

The spiral pump is intended to pump to a head and each successive spiral has a portion filled with air and the rest filled with water( like the screw) but each column of air is slightly compressed ( like a manometer) and the sum of the compressions gives you a head that it can pump to. If the head is too great the air will blow back.

You could probably make a single turn spiral pump that would deliver to shaft height without compression then it would be similar to a screw . You could fit several single turn spirals round the wheel. May be easier than a screw as the paddle axis is vertical.You may need 2 turns if your intake level is low.

The Hydraulic ram makes two sorts of noise, mechanical and hydraulic. If you follow the usual crude plans there will be a lot of clanging from the metal valves.

If you use rubber faced valves there is little mechanical noise. Hydraulic noise is caused by shock in the drive pipe when the waste valve closes. At high heads it is considerable and can't be avoided but at heads below 3 ft it is negligible. The ram I mentioned is almost silent, but we did bury the drive pipe as that is the main source of noise.

If you Google search the net for spiral pump or Wirtz pump ( the original inventor) you will find a few articles, mostly on the compressing spiral pump, a bit of emperical design but nothing detailed that I have found. Nothing useful on low head hydraulic rams and not a lot on the Archimedes screw except for large scale drainage with rotating screw in a stationary tube( not what you want).

Flux

Flux · « **Reply #26 on:** October 03, 2005, 10:32:00 AM »

Linda

Just found this on the Glokemann pump, its a compound ram, don't know why it should be better than a simple one. Another line of attack.

http://www.rpc.com.au/reindex.html?http://www.rpc.com.au/specials/glockemann/glock_special.html

Flux

ghurd · « **Reply #27 on:** October 04, 2005, 12:21:15 AM »

Very interesting.

Looks to me like a basic hydraulic (floor jack) idea.

Not so much inertia driven.

Any thoughts?

G-

Kwazai · « **Reply #28 on:** October 04, 2005, 06:12:18 AM »

http://www.motherearthnews.com/library/1979_May_June/Mother_s_Hydraulic_Ram_Pump

Linda · « **Reply #29 on:** October 04, 2005, 07:32:18 PM »

Thanks Flux, I've begun reading up on the spiral pump, starting with the very good links provided by you and the others who've responded to my post. I'm working on a materials list and will be making a trip to the city soon. I'll report on what I'm doing and my successes/failures as I go. Thanks again

Linda · « **Reply #30 on:** October 04, 2005, 09:10:25 PM »

Nando,

Well I wasn't able to get a laser but I did get more data for you and I've put it into this sketch. I hope this is readable. Thanks for your help.

Linda · « **Reply #31 on:** October 04, 2005, 09:22:00 PM »

This was my first attempt at posting a pic, and it looks like I didn't work, so I hope that attaching thing link to my pic which did upload will make the pic accessable.

http://www.otherpower.com/images/scimages/4556/Creek_1.jpg

GeorgeT · « **Reply #32 on:** October 05, 2005, 03:32:25 PM »

The level of the stream may change season to season so the means to pump water from a higher or lower head and flow rate is an issue. While there are many good solutions, mayhap simplicity is the issue at hand. While not efficient, a simple paddle wheel driving a small piston pump that intakes water through a flapper style valve would be sufficient. By paddle-wheel I mean a number of convex paddles attached to the end of a hub, with the hub attached to a short axle that operates like a windshield wiper motor (or bicycle peddle being driven by it's chain). Then the off-set is used to drive a small flapper-valve pump. Small! Your not after quantity with something like this, but constant operation instead.

For reference, we did this in Tennessee when I was a kid (76-81) useing wood and sheet-metal to get water closer to a new tobacco patch, raising water 16 feet from the level of the creek before sending it along the way in a 1/2 pipe.

Made of sufficiently light materials a paddle wheel will operate in shallow water. The pump; driven by the paddle wheel would have to be quite small to ensure operation in a low flow situation, but usually constant flow from a source is preferred to intermitant operation. I would start with a paddle about 12 inches by 12 inches in a stream such as you describe. Attach the paddles to a series of spokes around the driven axle. 8 to 12 paddles seemed to be the number we used on the farm.

If your pump stalls the paddle-wheel and you can't get anymore water on the paddles, then you need to start again with a smaller pump.

The simple pump I am referring to is a couple pieces of pvc, one sliding inside another. The inner piece would have a flapper valve at the base to cycle water inside when it is drawn back by the paddle-wheel. Then as it is pushed in the other direction the flapper closes and the water is pushed along the pipe. The two pieces do need to be a loose fit and should move freely making a little sanding necessary on the inner pvc pipe a times. It functions the same as an old fashioned bicycle pump. The entire pumping affair is submerged.

As the idea is to get water up and over the hump so to speak, I would pump up to a "slew" that feeds something small. A typical garden hose in size would be good for testing and using a slew (box) would allow for a place to filter and remove debris before it gets a chance to clog up the works. The shorter the distance to the slew, the better.

Alternate pump - While I doubt the type pump that is driven by a drill (available at Lowes, Home Depot, etc) would work efficiently driven by the paddle wheel such as I am speaking of, it may work reasonably well if it were completely submerged.

If I have made this terribly complex please let me know and I will try to draw it out. Good luck.

GeorgeT

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Author Topic: I need a "lift" and your help (Read 5032 times)