Hydro power in the Amazon

[Greeno1645]

Hello to everyone!

I need help and/or advice with the set up of a hydroelectric generator system for a cabin I'm building in Peru, South America.  My wife is from Peru and together we own about 20 acres of rainforest in the Amazon(near the central eastern border of Brazil / Peru).

I've emailed a few alternative energy companies to try and get some help and advice, but I think they're assuming that I'm someone playing a prank, or perhaps their is nothing to gain from responding to me, but I could really use some assistance.

Here's my situation.  It seems that supplies are readily available here in the U.S. but much of what I'd need to build the system is heavy and shipping would be expensive, so I would prefer to purchase as much of the materials as possible in Peru.  

Does anyone have a design that can be constructed from mostly automotive or hardware store parts?

I've read several times that car alternators that have been 're-wound' work well.  What brand/size of alternator and how do you 're-wound' them?

Since batteries are probably the heaviest component of the design, would car batteries work as a substitute?

Finally, I have two choices of possible water sources to utilize. There are a number of streams / waterfalls in the area that would offer really good head pressure because of the drop (100' or more), but I'd have to pipe the water to my land over quite a distance, perhaps as much as 500 yards.  The other choice is the river that forms the eastern border of my property.  It is very fast moving and high volume of water (about 20ft wide and 3+ feet deep), but the water is HOT!  The river is formed almost entirely by hot springs - in some places you can boil an egg!  Would the heat effect the components?

All advice and suggestions are greatly appreciated.  I have a few photos uploaded on my profile of the waterfalls and streams that are available to be utilized - I don't know how to share them.  If anyone wants additional photos, I have more along with some animal and landscape shots I've taken over the past ten years that we've been traveling to the Amazon.  Let me know and I'll e-mail them to you.

If anyone would be willing to offer their expertise and their time by coming down, I am open to discuss arrangements for paying for transportation and accomidations in trade for the help.  We always see a great deal of wildlife and fishing in the Amazon always great.

[drdongle]

Sounds like you need a Mitchal/ Banki turbine with a Hugh Piggot Alternator on the stream bordering the property. There is a lot of info on site ( use the search engine here) on The H. Piggot design as well as plans for sale on the sister site "otherpower" there are also Mitchal/ Banki plans available from various sources ( use Google for that). Both devices can be built from locally available material with the probable exception of the Neo magnets for the Piggot alternator ( these are also available from otherpower, as is magnet wire for the coils). You will need the assistance of a local machine shop to fabricate some of the mechanical components out of stock materials.

I highly recommend searching the archive here: key words: Piggot, Axle alternator,

Mitchal, Bankie.

Good luck

[scottsAI]

Hello Greeno1645,

You have some exciting options!

Even with all the info you have given, you have only touched the tip of the issues.

Some one will say this, So I guess it's my turn. You need to take time and read other postings here... The questions you needed answered would take a book to address.

This will be a big investment. Take time to read learn about it.

If you don't you will not get what you desire. Additionally the forces you will be dealing with can kill you if your not careful.

Hydro, always best to return the water back to the system it come from.

Cheaper to locate gen near stream then pipe it 500yd. Wire is usually cheaper.

Long distance wiring, the voltage needs to be boosted, using AC, then stepped down for use. (power losses)

Automotive generators are 54% efficient, as Dr D, said, making your own may be a better option. If you have excess power then the auto gen may be a good choice if much cheaper.

Looks like it gets down into the 40-50's there, the hot water may be a good choice for heating.

As usual I have jumped into it. The first question is how much power do you need?? then take a look at the power options yo have and how much your willing to pay to get it going....

Have fun,

Scott.

[wpowokal]

http://www.homepower.com/magazine/downloads_hydro_power.cfm

[hobot]

My goodness a river of HOT Water on site!

I'd be thinking of air conditioner type components

to create a head of pressure fed thru a compressor valved

to be a motor to altenator and air or water cool condensors

and return to cycle. Bump voltage up 115 or 240 near source

and standard wire off to home.

How about thermocouple piles, working ends submered floated

on insulation layer for air cooled temp difference.

Many common metal wires can be combined, like little cells

in battery till voltage level desired reached, in mutli

units as needed.

Stirlin engine sites have many designs that are home made

and make torgue and would love to have a temp difference

like your site to work with.

If you could damn up river a bit for a faster slot [or not]

a simple under shot paddle wheel could have a rim that an

above water small tire could run on to spin a generator.

Flood conditions must be provided for too.

I'm excited for your adventure ahead, best success.

hobot

 

[Greeno1645]

Thanks for the suggestions, scottsAI!

As an absolute novice, I didn't take into consideration the risk I'm taking trying to build my own generator - thanks for pointing that out.

I don't think my cabin plans are calling for a great deal of power at any one time so I was planning on about 500 watts, but maybe you can help me calculate how big I'll need to go.  

I'd like to have enough power to run a laptop computer with photo printer, charge small batteries (cel phone / flashlights / camcorder), ceiling fan, slide projector or television, and a small fridge (perhaps even just one of those Igloo coolers that plug into your car).  I intend to use propaine for the stove, but if you think that my list is not too demanding.  Do you think that a 500 watt system will surfice?

By the way, it does once in a while drop down in the 50's during the evening, but only during the month of July (that's winter time south of the equator).  How did you know?  I probably won't need any type of heating system, but even after living and working in the Amazon for nearly three years, I still need to have a hot shower in the morning - so, you can bet I'll be piping the stuff into the cabin first chance I get!

I'm really impressed by everyone's responses to my post - thank you so much!

[Greeno1645]

Thank you hobot!

Do you have some links for what you're describing?  It sound really interesting, but truthfully I really don't know enough about the engineering of generators to understand what you're suggesting (I need pictures - you know.....like a kid )   - Are you saying that there is a way to use the hot water's geothermic energy to generate electricity?  Would that be more practical than building a banki like some of the other folks suggested?  Would it likely have the capacity to generate 500 W?

[Greeno1645]

Thanks, drdongle!

I'm leaning towards the Banki design since there does seem to be a lot of designs available on the Internet (just as you and others stated).  I also think it is within my skill level to assemble.

Two questions if you don't mind:

I'm thinking that I'd like to try and build one here in the US, sort of a trial run, to make sure I can do it and so that I can ask questions as I make my first attempt.  But, how do you test the devices efficiency / effectiveness without a large stream anywhere nearby to give it a test run?

The design of the Banki turbine that I liked best shows two 12" steel discs used as the exterior parts to the 'wheel', and pvc conduit was cut to make the blades.  Any idea on how the plastic blades were attached to the steel discs?  Do you think I could substitute 1/2" acrylic in place of the steel discs to lighten the weight of the device (maybe then I could build the device here and bring it down with me).

Thanks again!

[Don Cackleberrycreations]

I could see an undershot wheel mounted on a floating barge

this would allow for flood conditions though a log diverter would need to be installed up river .

I have seen the Boat type propeller generators that float and are anchored in the current . the main fear with a floating whell/alternator would be the power cable being snagged by floating debri

[ghurd]

Keep reading.  You are in the right place!

Don't get overwhelmed designing the entire system at the same time.

I would have to believe it is better to make the alternator yourself. Then it will be understood by the end user.  If a $5 bridge rectifier fails, it is going to be a lot cheaper and easier to figure it out and change it, than trying to find someone qualified to diagnose and fix the alternator.  Same for a poor connection, worn bearing, etc.  And insight could make a 3 pound box of spare parts last for years worth of maintaince.

Water power is 24/7.  500W 24/7 is a lot of power if the end using the power is well designed.  Even 100W 24/7 would probably meet your defined needs, and more.

The choice of devices is important.

- CFL lights save 80% of the power, and last longer, compared to regular bulbs.

Good LEDs are great for flashlights, night lights, reading lights...

Good CFL and LED lighting is cheaper in the long run than kerosene/white gas lighting. Sure is easier.

• Switching regulators are much more efficient than standard battery chargers supplied with cel phone / flashlights / (most)camcorders. Not sure I would worry much about cell phone chargers if the phone was usually shut off.
  
• A DC ceiling fan will use a lot less power than a standard AC type.
  
• Those Igloo style coolers are very power hungry, inefficient, and 'limited' in performance, especially in hot weather.
  
  

There was a great post about a chest style freezer converted to a incredibly efficient refrigerator that used less power in 24 hours than the Igloo style cooler uses in 90 minutes, IIRC.  The insulation could be beefed up also.

WindStuffNow Ed, Jerry, and others, re-made more than re-wound automotive alternators. I don't believe they do it any more, if that says anything.

Zubbly style, Jerry's Garbogen, Hiker's Maytag, etc, conversions are cost effective and easy.

Car batteries are a very bad choice.  Golf cart / floor scrubber style 6V batteries seem to be available about everywhere. 'T-105' or similar will be much cheaper than car batteries at the end of a year or 2.

Maybe someone can find the link to the chest freezer post. I can't find it.

G-

[Gordy]

Chest fridge is at http://mtbest.net/chest_fridge.html

Gordy

[Gordy]

NO offence to hobot,  I think/hope he ment that as humor

But forget most of what he said!!! Unless you are an enginier, machinest, jack of ALL trades, ect.... OH yes and have lots of money.

From the way you discribed your property a water turbine or wheel wil be the easiest and cheapest way to go.

Goto the top of the page and click on the Other Power logo. At the bottom of the page that open , there are links to a wealth of info you may need including a artical on water turbines.

Also check out http://www.homepower.com  They will have achives and links for hydo unit.

Happy Hunting,

Gordy

[ghurd]

Thats it! Thanks!

G-

[wdyasq]

Green presents some interesting challenges and problems.  He has a few options on how to get power.  Here, he gets a batch of 'expurts', some knowing what they are speaking about, some not, some recommending what will be impractical or impossible.  

Availability of repair parts will be one major consideration - well it should be a consideration of someone many days of travel to  town or city of a size just to talk to someone about getting replacement parts from cities and industries possibly unknown in the area. ScottsAI, Gurd and Gordy have given some good links and building your own means you have a direct link to the manufacturer and designer. One must also remember a 24/7 system runs over 8,700 hours a year.  Whatever is built, it needs to stand that use.  IMO there are no automotive alternators up to that kind of use/abuse.

Here is  list of things I would or would not consider, and why or why not:

       I would not consider any kind of heat engine.  In a remote location one would be a mechanical nightmare.  They require considerable expertise to setup are not, as far as I know, available as a reliable 'Hook it up and it runs' unit. A shame as a running hot river is a lot of energy.

    Small turbine running on a 'head' of water.  Good option, as said, run wires to where the power is needed. You will be able to get part of the 'power run' by diverting the water in the direction of where the power is needed.

    'I have seen the Boat type propeller generators that float and are anchored in the current . the main fear with a floating whell/alternator would be the power cable being snagged by floating debri.' -      This and the floating undershot wheel are similar in problems.  I might look at one of these or a Gorlov turbine if the hot stream was a lot closer than the high-head turbine option.

For generators/alternators I would look at, in this order, 'dual rotor' core-less as commonly shown on Otherpower site for wind machines.  A motor conversion as shown and done by 'Zubbly' might make good sense if motors are available for conversion in the area.  They could also be  setup so a quick interchange would be possible.  Backup parts and pieces are essential in remote locations, as well as needing a mechanic.  In these cases, one best be the builder, trouble-shooter and repairman.

There should be a local source (or near local for the boonies) for deep cycle batteries.  If one has a 24/7 power source this can be minimized.  Then the battery only has to supply the surges and short overloads and power for maintenance or breakdown.  

I don't have the link to the US government appliance energy requirement for appliances.  I will not be completely applicable for South America but should be informative.  Your inverter will need to supply not only your load but also be able to handle the starting loads of appliances including whatever is running at the time.

Gorlov turbine http://www.commondreams.org/headlines01/0517-05.htm

Ron

[Greeno1645]

I like your idea of using a barge to keep the device afloat regardless of the water level, but do you think I could use a benki instead of a propeller?

[Greeno1645]

Okay - everything you've suggested is making sense.  Also, I checked out several of the designs for homemade alternators.  Automobile rotars seem to be the standard for mounting the permanent magnets and I'm starting to grasp the design concepts.

Question:  What polar direction do the magnets need to be mounted - in other words, do you point the positive end of the magnet toward the center of the rotar and negative pointing out? Or, are the magnets polarized in such a way that the positive side faces down (touching the rotar) and the negative side pointing up?

Do you follow what I'm saying?

Thanks!

[Don Cackleberrycreations]

I'll have to see what a benki is first .

If its a wheel I see no reason a wheel couldnt be mounted between a pair of pontoons or the back of a  raft. I suppose you could even go for a side wheel steamer look .

the tricky part is a good anchoring  system . preferably higher than the flood levels and out of the path of floating debri.

   Now an idea for a simple cheap wheel would be a bike wheel with tin cups rivited on it  or two bike wheels with  pipe halves attached between them (hey it provided good speed on my homebrew water trike)

[wooferhound]

The Magnets will alternate "North, South, North, South" all the way around a homebuilt generator. you should use t disks of magnets with coils of wite in the middle. The disks of magnets will be attracting each other in this design.

Here is a link to some of the simpler methods of building a generator by yourself.

http://www.otherpower.com/otherpower_experiments.html

[Vtbsr]

Hi Greeno, Take look at the Harris pelton . The automotive alternator will run for a year. Then you have to put new bearings and brushes and run for another year. This is a small unit that you could fly down with. You could get a spare alternator just in case.Then in peru you would have to locate the pipe (penstock),and the golf cart batteries. Go with the 100 ft drop idea on the small stream. I think it would be easier.

[hydrosun]

 I agree with the post  saying that the most important issue is reliablility and ease of repair. I've done some home built hydro and none of them were high on  these criterias.  The main advantage of homebuilt is the cost, but that may be outweighed by efficiency.  A manufactured unit has been tested in  the real world and the bugs worked out.  I now install almost exclusively the Harris permanent magnet  generators. The bearings, common ones  readily available , are well protected from moisture and should last three years in continous use. That is all that is routinely repaired.  Don Harris can put together the best unit if you can tell him the head and flow that the unit will work with. I'd reccomend a 48 volt system to keep the cost of the wire to move the power.

 Another possibility is to run an ac direct system if the resource is large enough to run the biggest loads. Or try to feed back into the grid input of a Xantrex inverter. Hugh Piggot has done some work with that design.  If you can post the gallon per minute flow rate of the 100 foot drop stream I could give you a more concrete design.

When I first read your post last night I thought it would be a great adventure to visit your site and help design and build your system. I've put together over a dozen systems here in the states and would love to go some place warm for the winter.  But it might be enough to be available as an advisor by email or phone.  You can contact me directly at embodyjoy@earthlink.net.

Chris Soler

Soler-hydroelectric

[

[Gordy]

Tim,

The poles of the magnets are generaly  refered to as (N) north or(S) south. You can use a cheap compass to determen which is which and then mark them N or S with a permanent marker.

You want your magnets layed out with oposite poles facing up, like N-S-N-S-N-S ect.

Gordy

[ghurd]

Stray thoughts...

Reliability. Replaceability.

Stuff breaks. Fuses blow. 'Ship' happens.

A small, like under 1kw, 48V inverter is hard enought to get in the States. Same for CFLs, LED lights, AA battery chargers, DC/DC converters, cell phone chargers...  Should Green take 3 of each?  If the 3 he takes are junk, can they be replaced?  Do they even make all that stuff?  Is it availablable within 500 miles?  How much more does it cost to buy, and then ship?  And the down time could be incredible.  I am in the middle of the USA and it takes me a minimum of 5 days to get a small 48V inverter.

If a 12V E27 CFL fails, there are many places down there to get a 12V E27 incandescent.  An #1156 could be fixed for lighting in 3 minutes, if the system is 12V.

A 12VDC TV, VCR, or DVD can be had from Wally-World. Do they even make a 48VDC TV, VCR, or DVD?

That leads to inverters.

Is it best to use an inverter to change 12/24/48VDC to 120VAC, to use a wall wart to change it to 6, 9, and 12VDC?  A 45% efficient, 59 cent, 7806 and resistor would be far more reliable and efficient for the flashlight, camera and cell phone, than an inverter could ever hope to be.  A dozen spare 12V to 9V regulators are small, cheap and easy.

I just can't believe in this situation that 48V is the best way to go.

Seems to me like 3 of every 12V part is going to be cheaper than every single 48V part.

Green (sorry dude) is obviously not overly concened with the cost, so I don't figure a few bucks in bigger wire is going to harm the project. As long as it is reliable, and quickly / easily / cheaply fixable when it is not reliable.

I have installed quite a few systems where if something fails, someone dies. They are all 12V. With every spare part readily available, and user understandable.  No one has died due to a system failure.

Knock on wood.

Wish I knew more about hydro because I'd love to fish for Peacock Bass.

G-

[Greeno1645]

Actually, it was my research into Pelton wheels that led me to this board.  I like the simplicity part of being able to just buy a unit, but there are two aspects that have me a little worried about going this route.

First, the Pelton looks awfully heavy and I'm sure I'm going to get hassled going through customs - not to mention paying a hefty duty.

Second, if it breaks, then what?  I'd have to fly back to the U.S. to get another.  I've shipped things to Peru before and if it is something other than letters or documents, it doesn't always arrive.  If it does arrive, then customs imposes a huge tax based on what they think the device is worth.  

I sent $50 of clothing that I bought from the Salvation Army to send to some family and friends - about 10 shirts and 10 pants.  The wanted me to pay an additional $200 in tax!  I didn't pay it and abandoned the clothing.  Funny thing was that my friends told me that the employees in customs were seen wearing the clothing several weeks later - go figure.

[Greeno1645]

Read the article - WoW!  It's on my list of things to build! Thanks!

[Greeno1645]

Okay...thanks.

[Greeno1645]

ghurd is correct, budget is not as much a factor for me as EASE of repair and reliability.  In fact, if I loose power a few times a year because a part fails, it really is no big deal as long as I can replace it - I've been going to the Amazon without any ammenities for the last ten years.  

The big issue is if a broken part will require me to fly back to the good ol' USA.  I'm more than happy to jump on a boat and travel back to town for a few days to gather supplies - that's part of the adventure!

ghurd - The peacock bass are great, but if you get the chance to go, you'll have to try fishing for arapama  - grows up to 12 FEET long and weighs as much as 500 Ibs!  Locals use a harpoon like spear to catch them when the fish comes to the surface to grab a breath of air (it is very primitive and has modified lungs rather than gills).  I don't fish for them myselfas the big ones are getting rare because of over hunting, but they are incredible to see.

Wouldn't I want 220 VAC (S. America)?  Or, should I use a converter for locally bought appliances?

[BigBreaker]

I would consider dropping batteries with a hydro setup like that.  Water power is available 24/7 unlike solar and wind (seasonality can be important however).  Building a bigger gen for peak loads will probably be cheaper and easier than maintaining a battery bank.  That would avoid a whole mess of problems.  I'd think about having a fuel powered gen as a backup instead.

It's probably too advanced for you at this stage but you could have a really sweet setup with a big enough gen and the control system to hold 50/60hz 220/120VAC service through your load requirements.  I'm envisioning a great big flywheel integrated into the axial gen's rotor plates with a water valve control to follow loads.  With your modest needs and such a great hydro resource your options are truely great.

That hot spring is a fantasic resource away from its hydro value.  You can use it to heat a small distrillery ('still) to make your own ethanol to power the backup gen among other things.

[ghurd]

''Wouldn't I want 220 VAC (S. America)?''  

I would go 220VAC.  Or maybe even both 220 and 120? Depending on what you bring from home. Decent inverters of the size required aren't that big or expensive.

[Greeno1645]

I forgot to ask a fairly important question...how much do you think a 200-300 Watt / hr system will cost (including EVERTHING)?

[Greeno1645]

No batteries, huh?  Sounds good to me.  Which of these items do  you think would have the highest peak load:

fridge

laptop

ceiling fan

battery charger for cel phone / camcorder / flashlight

How many watts do you think I'd need to shoot for?  What volume of water given 100' of head pressure?

As for brewing ethanol.....I'm sure I'd end up blowing myself up.

True story....one of my trips to the hot water river I saw two kids walking down to one of the hot springs.  One kid took out two chicken eggs from his pocket.  The other kid took off one of his socks and tied it to a stick.  They put the eggs into the sock and lowered it into the hot spring.  In about 2 minutes, the pulled the egg filled sock from the water, cooled it off in a cooler part of the stream and peeled the boiled eggs and ate them for lunch.

[ghurd]

Too many variables to guess.

Like can you do machine work and welding, how much wire costs down there, etc.

I still have a feeling 200-300W is VERY oversized. Better to be too big than too small, and who knows what is going to be a neccessity in 5 years.  A laptop and cell phone wouldn't have been on the list 10 years ago.

Just guesses. Not figuring inverter and battery losses, etc.

Laptop, 60W x 4 Hours = 240WH

Camcorder, 60W x 4H = 240WH

Phone & flashlight, 5W x 4H = 20WH

DC ceiling fan, 12W x 12H = 144WH

Two DC CFLs, 11W x 4H x 2 = 88WH

LED nightlight,  2WH

DC water pump = 60WH

Fridge () = 500WH (the one in the link uses only 100WH)

Thats around 1.3KWH/day, 54W/H.

If the fridge is the 100WH one, charge the camcorder once a week, use the laptop only 2 hours every day, now it's 600WH/day, or only 25W/H.

A 250W 24/7 system would run some peoples homes.

A 400W system would run my power-hungry, 3 person home.

[wdyasq]

The starting load of my small freezer that runs at 100W is 1100W.  Watever system is designed, starting loads of any devices including the 'base load' must be addressed.

Ron

[scottsAI]

Hello Greeno1645,

I posted originally, because your question generally does not get much of a reply.

With 30+ post, not bad, some great info is presented.

The reason so many comments: You have an AUSOME site location for power.

You have POWER to BURN.

You do not need CF lighting if incandescent is much cheaper.

You can use a regular refrigerator, etc. What ever is cheaper.

Power generator will need to be bigger, The real cost of the system is putting it in, 2x will not cost 2x, nor will 4x cost 4x. For example: 3 in pipe cost vs a 6 in pipe, may be 20-50% more, caries 4x water.

Figure out the Load cost using very low power, and again with regular stuff. Then compare the system cost with a low power generator vs higher. You may find the higher power gen is the lower system cost option.

Points about 12v vs 48v are very good.

Or, even 220vAC, with no battery. AC only requires the gen to produce max load at any time, a hydro system handling varying loads is a b*tch. Requires a water governor, not simple, as a control system presents many problems. Can be controlled by the load, burn off in a resistor bank what you don't need. You already have hot water so this will be just waste heat.

Points about DC + inverter, COST, availability.

The way I design things:

Pretend there are no limits, what do you ideally desire?

-Design the system, can you afford it? (power and loads)

-Design it again, many ways to do things!

-Keep doing this until no new ideas.

If you realize you can't then go back to your list and make changes. Design it several times. Show the idea to others ask their...

Keep your work, you will find it much faster to design each new idea by working off your old ones.

Be detail in the design. Simple global designs to start then get more detailed. Final should include nut and bolts! I happen to enjoy the designing as much if not more than building it. I'm very happy with my results when I do this. Even after doing all this I will learn enough to know it could have been better. There comes a point when it's time to get it done. So set time limits.

Anybody around your area that has done what you want? The best advice comes from people that have achieved what you want. Best to only ask them.

Make a list of what you can get locally, work with it to design your system, may not be the most efficient but the end result is what is important.

Last point, Remember – once you get power you will find more things you just have to have. After you build it. Since you have the power, plan to use 2-4 times your originally planed needs for expansion.

Have fun,

Scott.