Ready to start hydro, a few ??'s

[scesnick]

Hello All,

I have been lurking for a while now and finally joined.

I am getting ready to start my micro hydro project in the spring and have been researching this subject for about a year now. I know this forum is mostly for the D.I.Y.er's but I don't really have the time and/or the knowledge to build my own turbine so I am going to buy a manufactured one. First off here are my streams measurements:

• 360+ GPM down to about 100-120gpm in the dead of summer.
  
• 52 ft. of head, possibly more but that would start to run away from my garage where the battery bank will be
  
• I will probably need about 600 ft of penstock to get the 52 ft of head.
  
• the turbine will be about 300ft from my garage.
  
  

I have a few questions that I seem to get different answers to from different turbine producers so, I figured I would ask you guys who would be a neutral and educated party.

I like the Stream Engine for its price and ease of maintanence but I was told I would need atleast two turbines to get the full potential out of my stream. Any thoughts?

Also, I'm not sure if I would want a 12,24 or 48 volt system? (not really a electrical whiz, But I'm learning)like I said my garage and battery bank will only be about 300 ft away.

What about the freezing of the water in the winter? Will running water freeze? I know this depends on the climate but the stream usually does not freeze solid.

I am on the grid right now but want to get off of it. I can net meter a wind turbine in my state but not sure about the micro hydro.

What about the flow decrease in the summer? Can I just change nozzles for the lower flow? Or do I just want a single nozzle with a single setting

One last question and I will quit for now. My stream picks up more volume as it runs toward my proposed turbine spot. Is it adviseable to start at the beginning and then put a "Y" in the pipe to get more flow?

As you can see I am full of questions but I can'

t seem to track down any "Honest" answers to these questions...

Thanks for taking the time to read this long post.

[Nando]

What is you name ?.

Your site, may produce a good power level, specially during winter for heating or additional electrical energy.

The Stream Engine may be good, though if You plan the system well, you may get a lot more with less money expense using something different like visit www.h-hydro.com and see the Turgo turbines Joe Hartvigsen sells that with a generator You could make one with much less money.

First: accurate measurement of the head and the water volume.

Second: Since Your area freezes in winter, a good analysis to determine if your stream does not freeze to see if you have the capability to run the pipe in the stream to keep the pipe from freezing in winter and at the same time to have the pipe protected from high water levels during the wet season.

Maximum head is the first consideration, then water volume to harvest the highest possible watts generated.

For Your case, MORE head even if you have to move away from the garage, think in producing high voltage converted where the load is if such is the case, THINK as well the possibility of NO batteries if the proper system is built.

Or a marriage of low and high voltage, since your home is already GRID tied, you have the high voltage in place.

I assisted a fellow to produce around 1 KW during the dry season, high voltage directly connected to the house wiring with a battery pack to additional power when needed.

The Turbine was 250 meters (800 feet) away.

In winter time he got 3 to 5 KWs, enough to run the house and heating energy.

Piping under the stream most of the run with some covering in a non-possible place of about 50 meters before arriving to the turbine house.

This type of set up may have higher labor to insure the pipe is well placed, so the benefits must be balanced to the added labor.

Get the measurements then send a message to me and we see what can be done -- my address is in my message, correct it for spam protection.

Nando

[scesnick]

My name is Shawn by the way, ( sorry Nando)

It is hard to get an accurate measurement of the flow. It varies so much. the closest I could come is what I posted in the original post. 120 gpm is the minimum.

I could go down stream more to gain more head but I think I would only gain about 10-15 more feet before I ran off of my property. The the wire and Penstock would cost quite a bit more $$$.

I am electrically challenged and only know the basics. but i am learning as I go.

Thanks for the reply Nando. I could use all the help i can get..

[Nando]

Shawn:

The wire cost would be minimum if the power generated is with the proper voltage, for the moment do not think about batteries, think what is the best hydro system,then we solve the battery charging.

Keep a good data, 10 feet in 50 feet represent a good power increase, 20 % higher for the same water volume,

Important is minimum and maximum water usable during the different seasons.

Nando

[scesnick]

Nando,

Are you talking about using an AC system? the way I understand it is that an AC system takes ALOT of volume. More than I have in my stream. So, my only other choice would be D/C which means a battery system. Especially since my flow decrease to about 120 gpm in the summer.. I already have twelve large batteries anyway. Just need to use them for something..

[Nando]

Shawn:

It takes the same water power to generate the same AC or DC power.

Your system can have around 770 watt for each 100 GPM at 67 feet head,

so if you get 360 GPM you get 3.6 times more power.

Also, you will be able to place the turbine far away from your load if such is needed using regular home wiring (like 12 gauge) and not the ARC welding wire if a low voltage power source.

I have done Hydro since I was 14 years old and I am now retired.

One done in Canada not long ago, the turbine was around 300 feet away from the load -- I suggested 120 volts 3 phase for a 120 watts power source and it was low cost.

Ask questions, put aside your thinking and wait for responses that may give you the best hydro arrangement -- make sure what you think is the right thing and question every step for your own good.

At 67 feet and 360 GPM you may get around 2.8 KW in winter -- good for anything including heating since it represents 67 KWhour of energy and if just 100 GPM it is 18 KWh of energy

Do NOT short change Yourself.

Nando

[scesnick]

Nando,

That is why I posted this question, to learn what my options are.

From what I have learned elsewhere ( and this could be totally wrong)in order for me to use straight AC power I would need alot more flow than my 120 minimum flow. I am all about saving money on this project.

So I guess what I am asking is for you to lay it out for me, in laymens terms,

What turbine would you suggest and is it AC or DC ? Are you saying that I should go totally AC without the batteries and inverters? Or just go AC from the turbine to the batteries and then convert it to DC to store in the batteries and then put that DC power into the inverter to make it a steady 120V AC power??

Is that what you are suggesting? I am just trying to figure it all out..  

I am very glad to finally talk to someone that knows what he is talking about and does not have an agenda ( sell me their product)

How did you come up with the 67 KwH ?? I thought the formula was as follows: 67ft of head X 360GPM = 24120 /9 for friction loss ( roughly) = 2.6 Kw. How did you come up with the KWH

BTW, I tried to email you and I could not do so..

One more

[scesnick]

sorry I re read your post and now I see how you got the KwH.

Can use an AC system and have continual power even with the summer flow of 120gpm without a battery system? Or would the battery system be necessary? I'm getting confused about the different system requirements for AC and DC.

[Nando]

First: I do not sell anything, I give suggestions based on my Hydro experience.

Think in power ( watts , kilowatts ). Forget DC or AC & batteries for the moment.

With 67 feet head and 100 GPM you get 770 watts times 24 hours = 18.48 KWH

I added the extra head You can get with lower turbine anchoring.

With 360 GPM, 3.6 times more energy.

Your site is good for a Turgo Turbine, like the ones that You could get from www.h-hydro.com.

Do not buy a finished product that will cost You at least 3 times more if You do a good amount of work.

Depending on your necessities if You can live with 770 watts, You do not need batteries.

In winter, You could have excess power for HOT water, house heating, cooking etc, when You need the greater power to live with more comfort.

You need to calculate what savings You could have in propane ( if used) or wood (labor or buy) for heating purposes to define what could be Your best investment for a system that fills a lot of gaps and savings.

In the dry times, depending on Your usage You may need a battery support, though if living is well planned You may suffice with 770 watts ( 18.48 KWH /day)

It is always a trade off.

A friend in South America wants a minimum of 10 KW in summer and about 3 times in winter -- so each searches for its best aims -- He is looking for a land that gives him such water volume and head to attain his desires.

Ready when You ready.

Nando

[scesnick]

Nando,

I wasn't implying you were selling. i just meant that I was a relief to talk to someone who is not selling something. Sorry for the confusion. I understand a little better now what you are saying.

I don't need to use ANY of the micro hydro power for heat or domestic water. I have a wood/coal boiler and it heats my house and domestic water already. I will need to use some of the power for the furnace blower 220v ( I have a forsed air system ) and the boiler pump.

I need to get as much power as possible for my home. I have 2 small daughters and a teenage son and none of them know that thre is an off position on the light switches. So, I think i would need the batteries...Or just net meter the MH power and if i still need more power just use the grid.

Are there instructions on how to assemble the Turgo off the site you gave me? I'm always willing to save some $$$

Thanks again...

[Nando]

Net meter the MH ?. Explain !!!

Where are You located ?.

Can You, as well, inform what type of cost involves to have a boiler run by wood or coal ?.

You better supply ALL what you have in your mind to avoid making assumptions that may not be valid.

Connect to www.h-hydro.com and get the info, it is a simple system.

Nando

[TomW]

Nando;

Net meter the MH ?. Explain !!!

There are those shortcuts and abbreviations causing confusion again. Makes for a lot of extra time posting for clarification when things are not clear.

MH is Micro Hydro I think anyway.

Anyway just thought that might help.

Cheers.

TomW

[veewee77]

Following is my opinion. YMMV. . .

The very first thing you MUST do BEFORE even considering a RE system is to conserve. It is FAR easier to save energy than it is to produce it. Get the daily watt-hours to the minimum that you can and then start to build your system. Don't even attempt to build a RE system to provide for current needs unless you are already ultra-conservative in your energy usage.

Then. . .

If you already have batteries and an inverter/charger, put in a turbine that will provide the watts you require (AC or DC doesn't matter, but you will need to rectify the AC one to charge the batteries) and let it charge the batteries through a charge controller. Then let your inverter power the loads as necessary from the battery. If you remain grid connected, your inverter/charger should handle this for you. If you intend to get off-grid, put in your system and when you think you have it right, pull the main breaker from the power co and see if your system meets your needs for a year. If it does, you made it. If it doesn't, either conserve more or add more system.

Not too technical, but just for thought. . .

[RP]

I'll just interject here:  

Many people assume that an AC system will have to supply peak power under all conditions and therefore will need to be larger (higher volume of water) to handle running the vacuum cleaner, hairdryer and well pump at the same time.  This can be gotten around by planning and management of your electrical usage.

A typical DC system with batteries has an advantage that it is storing up power at night and while everyone's at work, school, etc. so the batteries can supply your peak load when needed.

Of course if the terrrain of your propery allows, you could use a holding pond to essentially "store" power in the form of water at the top of the hill and have a higher volume to draw on when needed for an AC system as well.

I think Nando will get into this later after learning more about your site and your needs.

[scesnick]

Nando,

It cost me about $250 a year to heat my house, 30x40 garage and domestic water with my wood/coal boiler. my house is on a VERY cold and windy mountain at and altitude of 3,000 ft. i usually burn aoub t 5 ton a year @ $50 a ton.

I was under the impression that i could "net meter" or grid tie my Micro Hydro. ( MH ) There again maybe what I was told by other sourses was wrong.

YMMV,

Thnak you for the expaination. that is what I was looking for. So, I figured I could use a rectifier to change the AC to DC. I really would like to use batteries for a few reasons but mostly because, (and again this is just what I have read,) it is a more dependable system and I also get quite a few power outages living on top of a mountain.

I have already conserved as much as i can without the wife throwing a fit. I have all flourescent lights and switched to heating my domestic water with my boiler.

I have a large family with a 3,600 sq.ft. log home that has PLENTY of light switches for my little ones to leave on all the time.. I'm not looking to go totally off the grid, i would just like to cut my bill down or try to eliminate the bill in the winter when my water flow is the highest.

I would just like to thank you guys for all the answers I have gotten just in this one post. I have been researching this for about a year now and this is by far the best site I have found. Please do not assume that I am disputing what any of you guys tell me. I am by no means even close to an expert on this subject. I am just trying to learn about this exciting alternative to my $175+ month electric bill.

[scesnick]

I can't seem to find the edit option on this forum, oh well,

I forgot to mention that I am located in Western Md. right on the Md/ Wv. border.

[Nando]

FINAL CLARIFICATION:

Yes, you can make the system to be tied to the GRID, this would be the cheapest way with the capability of reducing the $175 monthly charges to a bare minimum, like connection cost only, since the power You can generate will produce enough power for You and GRID $ costs recovery.

A grid tied system is a Turgo attached to an Induction motor that once it has its RPM above the RPM+slip will start to produce energy sending it to the GRID at the power level that the water source is capable to provide.

If the GRID drops the generator will immediately stop producing energy and in this case, additional circuit is needed to disable the power lines feeding the house and enabling the induction motor to produce the electrical power for local use; this is done with additional equipment.

If You take the larger system option, then You may, practically, eliminate the boiler's fuel cost and the labor involved to "feed" the "firing stomach", since you have enough energy to heat the house and the water as needed, specially in winter.

Most important, You could be in an area where the GRID may drop in certain times and may take several days for the GRID to come on-line again, with the larger system You will be able to have the necessary electrical power to keep Your comfort at the same normal level.

If You can afford the pipe for the extra length and water volume GO for it.

Nando

##################

To solve the spelling problem, go to Your USERNAME BLOCK and click on DISPLAY PREFERENCES, then search at the bottom: SPELLCHECK POSTS BY DEFAULT and Click on the square to enable it. SAVE PREFERENCES

Every time you WRITE a response to a message and send it, the spell check comes IN and gives all the American Spelling errors for you to correct, once you have a "clean" spelling, then just above the POST square there is the "Spellcheck text(will force a"Preview"): SQUARE with the check mark, remove it and click the POST square to send it.

When composing a NEW ONE, the spell checker is on the top of the message, a bit hidden around subject line, un-check it once you have a clean message.

Nando

[scesnick]

Thanks Nando,

That is where my confusion was. It is now clear what my options are. I appreciate your time and sharing your knowledge.

I think it will begin constructing my site this spring. Most likely a grid tie. I might upgrade to a battery back up system at a later date.

[Nando]

Do not start constructing.

Inform what you want to do, step-by-step, then the proper suggestions will flow from those with high experience.

You need to define too many parameters, like pipe size, intake etc.

You can connect directly with me, this message has the email address that has to be modified (spam protection).

Nando

[scoraigwind]

Hi

If you had no grid power then I would strongly recommend a battery system for your site.  The battery allows you to run a fridge for example, which would not start up well on a turbine theat is producing (say) 1 kW.  You might get more in times of high flow (a lot more) but a fridge needs power all the time, especially in summer.

Since you are grid connected, the most effective way to use the power is to have a grid tied turbine.  But of course the economics depend on the deal you get with the utility.  And you will have expenses associated with legally connecting a turbine to the grid.  They are fussy about controls.

You can use direct AC, with a dump load to regulate the voltage.  This will work well for lighting etc and keeps you out of all the paperwork of grid tie.  The dump load can give you all your hot water and maybe keep a small space a little warmer.  Any power you do not use will go to heat.

However it will not be easy to find a product on the market that does AC power at such a low level.  A bigger unit would be expensive.  There are some small chinese turbines that would suit, and they are low cost.  But quality of manufacture will be poor.  Nepal is another source.

I hope this helps.