Author Topic: Why not take advantage of all energy sources?  (Read 2440 times)

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TorchLitHill

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Why not take advantage of all energy sources?
« on: September 15, 2006, 04:24:50 AM »
Although this has probably already been suggested , I wouldn't have a clue on what to search for, heres the premise, everyones looking for a way to squeeze as much energy out of anything we can, I have to ask, for those persons on city utilities, has anyone considered putting a turgo or something from the main, so anytime the water is used in the house you can get atleast a little generated power from the water companies PSI?
« Last Edit: September 15, 2006, 04:24:50 AM by (unknown) »

TorchLitHill

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Re: Why not take advantage of all energy sources?
« Reply #1 on: September 14, 2006, 10:34:32 PM »
For that fact, why isn't there a hydro generator at every blocks intersection?

« Last Edit: September 14, 2006, 10:34:32 PM by TorchLitHill »

stevesteve

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Re: Why not take advantage of all energy sources?
« Reply #2 on: September 14, 2006, 10:58:38 PM »
It's a nice idea but unless you are a really high volume water user I suspect that the system would yeild very little power.

Also it would have an adverse effect on your water pressure. Probably not a solution that would pay for itself and very intermittent.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2006, 10:58:38 PM by stevesteve »

DanB

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Re: Why not take advantage of all energy sources?
« Reply #3 on: September 15, 2006, 12:03:18 AM »
Hi Torchlit -

this has been brought up/slightly discussed before.  Its not very practical stuff - theres just not much energy there to be had compared to that which people are consuming.


On a different note...


You put up two other postings that I just deleted.  The forum here is really about practical stuff, that works.  It's possible that your two other postings linked to that sort of thing(I didn't click on the links), but in the future if you want to post here we need a bit more than just a link to another website to have it be interesting.  A link - by itself, without much description is 'spam' in my opinion (and I'll delete it every time to keep the board a bit more interesing).  (just so you know)  

« Last Edit: September 15, 2006, 12:03:18 AM by DanB »
If I ever figure out what's in the box then maybe I can think outside of it.

DanB

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Re: Why not take advantage of all energy sources?
« Reply #4 on: September 15, 2006, 12:08:24 AM »
Because so little power is available I expect it'd take 100 or more years before more power was generated than it took to build the generator not to mention recovering the other costs involved.  It's not practical - there's little bits of energy all over that are not cost effective.  We should worry about the huge amounts of energy that are available and could be used.  (#1 is probably that huge amount of 'free energy' that would be available through conservation)
« Last Edit: September 15, 2006, 12:08:24 AM by DanB »
If I ever figure out what's in the box then maybe I can think outside of it.

maker of toys

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Re: Why not take advantage of all energy sources?
« Reply #5 on: September 15, 2006, 12:21:51 AM »
in a (made up) word: TANSTAAFL (there aint no such thing as a free lunch.  thank you heinlein or nivin, I forget which)


take a step back and look at the system engineering approach.


while what you propose COULD be done, it would be a net energy LOSS, not a gain.


(except in  certain very small cases, like individual homesteads where the conditions are just right; and there, the intermittant and very small (on an energy production scale) flow rates don't justify the expense of the installation.  

as an example, calculate the amount of energy available in any reasonable water pressure (say 4 atmospheres, (equivalent to a head of ~120 ft or ~40 m) which is a high average municipal pressure) at a flow rate of (say) 100 gallons (~400 liters, or .4 metric ton) per day.  the proof is left as an exercise for the student.  <G> (hint- the answer is not in kWh/D, even if there is no residual pressure for the point of use-  no showers and no water on the second floor at all))

(100gpd is higher than MY total water consumption, and my biggest vice is longish showers. . .)


as for "why not generate power from 'domestic water' supplies:"  in most urbanized parts of the world, water is supplied from wells (requiring much energy just to pump the water to the surface), rivers (requiring pumps just to create flow and to feed any sanitation plant) or from distant reservoirs (requiring much engineering to get the water to where it's needed with minimal pumping- as an example, san francisco's water travels something more than 100 miles from point of collection to point of use)


in any event, the amount of energy required to get the water to point of use has been optimised to its lowest value consistant with reliable supply.  


as a matter of fact, the most of the earliest portions of the industrial revolution was tha application of fossil energy to the movement of water and sewage. (pumping water out of coal mines . . . . followed by pumping river water for domestic use and then pumping sewage back into the river for disposal;  the energy contained in urban water systems was put there through the planned action of mankind.  THERE IS NO EXTRA, or the design engineer/s will be looking for a new job.  (as a Walmart greeter, perhaps?)


just to drive home the point, and to paraphrase the laws of thermodynamics:


you cannot win (gain energy over inital conditions)

you must lose (no piece of equiment is 100 percent efficient,)

and you cannot get out of the game (all energy conversions suffer from entropy generation; i.e. all conversions are a net loss over and above the machine loss.)


so, the energy you wish to capture must be put into the system at some point.  a positive pressure is maintained so that any leaks do not provide an entry point for pathogens; that positive pressure requires additional power input.

flow losses eat some (most) of the input power. (come to that, leaks do too)

and running a turbine on the residual loses some to entropy, some to efficiency, and lowers the pressure you need to get your toilet to fill, etc.


the upshot: there simply isn't any addtional energy to be had in a large municipal system, and further, an electric power line is a lower-loss tranmission system than any large-scale hydraulic system can hope to be.


however, it may interest you to know that a freind of mine, who builds and maintains the controls for a large municipal sewage treatment plant, reports that said plant is totally power self-sufficient by the simple expedient of burning the methane produced by the sewage in large piston engines.  (think of the size engine that powers a container ship)  they even manage to sell a small amount of power back to the grid to offset the cost of running the plant.  (waste-water treatment is a growth business, gang. . . more toilets are connected every day!   he considers it to have been a short week if he works less than 90 hours)


-Dan

« Last Edit: September 15, 2006, 12:21:51 AM by maker of toys »

DaveW

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Re: Why not take advantage of all energy sources?
« Reply #6 on: September 15, 2006, 03:20:27 PM »
RAH, may he rest in peace.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2006, 03:20:27 PM by DaveW »

Ungrounded Lightning Rod

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Re: Why not take advantage of all energy sources?
« Reply #7 on: September 15, 2006, 06:35:36 PM »
Regardless of how the energy got into the water - from a motor driving a pump, from water flowing down a hill from a reservior that was filled by rain, or from some other source - it's there.  Thus it's potentially harvestable.


But household water pressure is typically in the vicinity of 30 PSI, or about the equivalent of 60 feet of head.  The tiny amount of water that represents the house's daily use, at that sort of head, produces negligible power.  Not worth the equipment to try to recover it.


But there IS a reason for going after it in certain situations:


Some electronic automated valves require a very small amount of power.  Batteries would run down every year or so and require replacement (rendering the valve inoperable meanwhile), while providing line power to every valve is a pain (and might leave you with no access to water in a power failure.)  So some manufacturers put a small waterwheel and generator in each valve.  Flushing the toilet or running the water also recharges the supercapacitor (or whatever) in the valve, providing power for the next run or flush, plus extra for idling until it's needed.


(If the water has been unused for a long time and the charge is getting low, the valve can chose to flush the toilet or run the water for a few seconds to recharge itself.  Running the water or flushing the toilet every couple weeks or so is desirable anyhow:  Keeps the toilet/sink trap from running dry and letting sewer gas in, and helps keep the bowl from getting a hard-to-clean coat of minerals from evaporation.)

« Last Edit: September 15, 2006, 06:35:36 PM by Ungrounded Lightning Rod »

kenneth keen

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Re: Why not take advantage of all energy sources?
« Reply #8 on: September 26, 2006, 03:34:49 PM »
Now THAT is a smart bit of thinking, the small amount of energy available can be used to recharge some device which is essential to the system (such as a valve) and the inconvenience of having to deliver power with electric cables or via human intervention is avoided through the installation of a small charger driven by the water flow through the system - I commend you on your intelligent use of limited power.

« Last Edit: September 26, 2006, 03:34:49 PM by kenneth keen »

alancorey

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Re: Why not take advantage of all energy sources?
« Reply #9 on: October 22, 2006, 11:27:05 AM »
We have these in the building where I work.  The urinals have some sort of motion detector or proximity sensor that causes them to flush when you back away.  I remember when they weren't there, and there's no new wiring to indicate they're powered by anything other than water.  For a couple of weeks there were some on the toilets, but they got yanked off.  They'd trigger too easily and whenever you leaned forward to get the toilet paper or something this massive flush with about 80 PSI would happen underneath you and you'd have to reach for the toilet paper all over again to dry off.


  Alan

« Last Edit: October 22, 2006, 11:27:05 AM by alancorey »