Semi homemade hydro power

[Oregonorganic]

 I am setting up my new home for power, it has never been on the grid and never will be. Solar will provide all my power from May-October, but will be very hit and miss the rest of the time. Wind is not a option since I live in one of the most windless areas of Oregon.

 So I am planning to create some kind of a Hydro-electric system over the summer. I have been evaluating the waterflow across my land since Novemeber, and have found a site close to my home with 100' of head and volume in excess of 20 gallons per minute(it averagesmore like 40 gallons per minute) through most of the wet season.

 Shopping around has shown that I can buy a Harris Turbine that will produce plenty of power on the above specifactions. The catch is that it will cost me $1500-$1800 for the complete unit, a large chunk of money for a poor country boy like me. Its especially insulting since these units used to cost $999 just a couple years ago, it seems many retailers are trying to gouge us now.

 I can still get the Harris Pelton wheel by its self for less than $300, and a Harris nozzle for $10, which leads me to my main question here...... If I purchased a over the counter Motorcraft or Delco Alternator at my local autoparts store, and built a system using all these parts(Harris wheel, nozzle, and alternator), would it be possible for me to generate anywhere near the 200 watts that a Harris built turbine could with my head and water volume?

 Harris turbines are advertised as being custom wound for each customers specifacations(the alternator), how much difference would it make if I just used a over the counter alternator? I am sure my homemade unit would not compare exactly with one made by experienced craftsman, but I'm not to concerned if its not perfect, I just need a practical unit.

 Anyone have any input for a poor country boy?

[Flux]

Not sure what speed the turbine runs at but at 100 ft head it should be fairly fast.

With 20 gpm you have over 400w theoretical, turbine should exceed 80% and a car alternator within its reasonable speed range may manage 60% so that should bring you into the 200W category as long as you can regulate the field efficiently to run the turbine at optimum speed. Even exciting with resistors and no technology you should manage over 150W.

With a decent pmg built to match the operating speed you could probably manage over 300W but it violates your simplicity requirement.

You really need to find the turbine speed, any form of belt drive will knock your power down if you need to speed increase.

Flux

[Oregonorganic]

 The pelton wheel is threaded to attach directly to the alternator(just as the original Harris turbine works), there will be no belts or gears between the wheel and the Alternator.

 What does "PMG" stand for?

 The Pelton wheel is 5", I'm not sure how to do the math to figure out how fast it would turn with 20 gallons of water per minute and 100' of head(230 PSI?).

 Thanks for your comments so far!

[Oregonorganic]

Oh, and the wheel has a 4" pitch diameter if that means something......

[TomW]

organic;



What does "PMG" stand for?

Permanent Magnet Generator. Well alternator to be precice as it makes Alternating Current.

TomW

[Flux]

jet velocity will be less than root(2gh)

So at 100 ft head velocity will be less than root (64 x 100) or 80ft/sec.

The pitch circumference of the wheel is 4 x 3.14 "  just over 1ft.

Speed will be 80 rps approx max theoretical on no load. Probably run at half that so that gives 40 x 60 rps  or 2400 rpm. Nicely within the range of a car alternator assuming you are using 12v.

Don't know how long bearings will last in such close proximity to water and continuous duty.

Flux

[Oregonorganic]

 Thankyou so much, this is the kind of info I was looking for.

 I would be building a frame with a waterproof shield to keep the alternator dry and isolated from the turbine. I suppose that if I had to change the alternator out every few years, or replace the bearings, that is a expense I can deal with. But I can't deal with the price gouging going on these days on this type of equipment.

 I'm going to pick up some good books on the subject so I can understand the engineering a bit better, but you have certainly given me hope, thanks!

 I would also be interested to hear from anyone who may have done something like I am describing.

[Warren]

Hello,

I ran a system similar to what you are trying from 1990 to 2007. I just upgraded last year. Here is a brief outline of that system: Total length of 4 inch pipe 4400 feet, total head 160 feet, nozzle size 1/2 inch, turgo turbine pitch diameter 4 inch, 66 amp Delco alternator.

The Delco produced about 37 amps at 13.7 volts at the battery. This system used a controller to vary the field coil amperage so no diversion load was used. The field coil used less than 4 amps.

The brushes and slip rings lasted about 6 months. Actually only one brush and ring lasted 6 months the other brush would last 12 months and the corresponding ring was never replaced. The bearings were only a problem once. I may have gone through three different alternators because of winding problems. They were all reconditioned units, about $100 each.

The main problem with an auto alternator is they are meant to be turned in the 5000 rpm range. A 4 inch turbine will not turn it that fast under load.

While changing brushes and rings isn't a big thing I usually found the problem would occur at inconvenient times.

Eventually I got tired of replacing the brushes and ring so I changed over to a 3 phase induction motor system. You may find an induction motor system will cost you about the same as using an automotive alternator since you would only need a one horse power 3 phase motor instead of the alternator.

Warren

[Oregonorganic]

 Very interesting Warren! As soon as I read your post I went looking for info on using these motors, but I am coming up short on info.

 Where would I get one of these motors? And what would be the best type for my use? Do they require any modification or extra electronics to use in place of a 12 volt alternator?

 Sorry for the questions, I am learning so much here.

[Oregonorganic]

Is it possible to generate 12 volts DC with a 3 phase induction motor? I'll need to use the system to charge batteries, what will be needed to do this with this type of generator?

[Flux]

To use an induction motor as it stands you must run it as a self excited generator with capacitors. You don't have a lot of range with operating speed and you have even less choice with voltage. the only way to charge 12v would be to run the motor near nominal volts and use transformers to step down and rectify at 12v. Possible but you need to know what you are doing.

The other way is to convert the motor by adding permanent magnets ( look at motor conversions here). Again the standard winding will not conveniently lend itself to 12v at the speed you will be running. You will have to do a lot of serious re connecting or go the transformer route again.

If you decide to go the motor conversion route from the start, are you stuck with 12v?

Flux

[wdyasq]

Good advice Flux. With a 4 Pole 3 Phase motor or PM conversion of such a motor would allow transformable frequency current. The higher voltage and alternating  of such a device would allow inexpensive transportation of the energy to transformers at the power storage facility.

If a higher than 12V system is selected, wiring costs and losses will be lower. 24V and 48V systems are far more practical than 12V for all but the most primitive electrical systems.

Ron

[spinningmagnets]

Probably the most common induction motor that is thrown away on a regular basis is inside a washing machine, but once you start looking, they are all around you in a variety of sizes. When someone uses the phrase "induction motor conversion" they can commonly mean two things.

One is adding capacitors to store some energy so the motor will have some power going to the spinning armature just for start-up. Once started, the armature draws a small amount of power from the field coils to continue running. I've heard they need to be spun at 10% over the design RPM when using a motor as a generator, but I haven't tried this yet.

The other definition is when you take a motor and put permanent magnets on the armature to convert it into a PMA, which makes it useful for not only constant speed hydro/diesel/steam, but PMA's are the best way to harvest variable RPM wind energy.

The early promoter and engineer of PMA conversions of induction motors is a man named Zubbly, who has sadly passed away. Calling this a "Zubbly conversion" helps differentiate the two. I wish I could've met him.

Here's a couple links from my research file

http://www.qsl.net/ns8o/Induction_Generator.html

http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_2/chpt_13/7.html  

adding capacitors to make an induction motor a self-excited generator/welder

[ghurd]

I don't know anything about hydro, other than it would be nice to have.

Just tossing a thought out there.

Wondering about using a 1HP GE ECM?

Someone got 400W with wind.  Must have been running slower than 2400RPM?

Slower may make it last longer than an auto alternator.

No brushes.

Most (all?) have a long shaft, maybe ~4", that could be supported with extra bearings, and give it a bit more distance from the water.

Still has the higher voltage options.

Might have less losses than a car alternator, but would need some kind of control.

Plus they are only rated at 1400RPM.

G-

[Warren]

Hello OregonOrganic,

It does help if you know something about electricity. You may want to purchase the following book "Motors as Generators for Micro-Hydro Power" by Nigel Smith. It will give you the basic system.

Generally the system involves a 3 phase motor with capacitors connected to provide self excitation. The AC power is sent to a transformer then rectified and sent to your batteries. A controller is used to take any excess power to a diversion load. The capacitors also allow you to maximize the amount of power produced.

A 3 phase motor is used instead of a single phase such as a wash machine motor, because of the smoother rectified power. The 3 phase motor to use should normally turn at 17-1800 rmp and should have more than 3 wires to connect to (dual voltage motors). 3 phase induction motors can be picked up at scrap yards or electric motor rebuilders.

In my upgrade I got a 2 hp single voltage (575 volts) 3 phase motor, so I had to go inside to the windings and bring more leads out and get the voltage down to a useable level( 120 volts). The motor is excited by three 9 micro farad motor run capacitors. The power goes into a 10 to 1, 3 phase transformer then through 3 full wave bridge rectifiers and to the batteries. Control of the system is provided by two C 40 controllers.

The motor used is rated for 1725 rpm. I have a 3.69 pitch diameter turgo turbine and under load it spins the motor at about 3000 rpm. Ideally I should have a larger pitch diameter but the frequency of the power does not really matter.

The hardest part of the setup was to get the right size of capacitors. There are formula and graphs but it still ends up trial and error. I currently produce 50 amps at 13.8 volts. I am waiting for spring to play around with the capacitors and increase the amperage.

Hope some of this makes sense,

Warren

[Oregonorganic]

 First, thanks to all who have posted! I appreciate all of the ideas and directions you have pointed me!

 Using the 3 phase induction motor sounds like a good project for me for down the road, for now it may be overkill for me, my present talents, and my limited pocketbook.

 If I needed to transmit the electricity further I would be all over that motor project, but since the hydro unit will be only about 10-20' from my battery bank the higher voltage is not needed. Also I am only needing about 400 amps per day at the moment.

 Using the motor sounds like it will involve a more expensive charger(MPPT?), and more knowhow with electicity than I have at the moment. I'm going to pick up the book that was mentioned and take a look, but for now I think I am going to do some research and find the best ready to use 12vdc alternator I can buy.

 Anyways, I have all summer now to research and build the system, in the meantime my solar panel will maintain the system well. And hopefully by the time the clouds come back in Fall(and block my sunshine), and with it electricity producing rain water, I will be ready!

 Again, thanks to all!!

[Oregonorganic]

 Hmmmm, I have been doing some looking around, and have found some information concerning Amp production of Delco alternators at different ranges of RPMs. Here is a graph:





 This shows several Alternators, and the power production curve for each over the range of RPMs.

 From what I have learned here, my 100' of head plus my 20+ gallons of flow per minute should allow me to spin a alternator @2200 RPMs.

 My projected energy needs are 400 Amps per day, or 16.66 amps per hour, according to the chart I should be easily able to produce the needed power and more with the larger stock Delco alternators. And it looks like there will be room for more improvement.

[Oregonorganic]

Hmmmm, I have been doing some looking around, and have found some information concerning Amp production of Delco alternators at different ranges of RPMs. Here is a graph:

 This shows several Alternators, and the power production curve for each over the range of RPMs.

 From what I have learned here, my 100' of head plus my 20+ gallons of flow per minute should allow me to spin a alternator @2200 RPMs.

 My projected energy needs are 400 Amps per day, or 16.66 amps per hour, according to the chart I should be easily able to produce the needed power and more with the larger stock Delco alternators. And it looks like there will be room for more improvement.

Sorry I reposted this, I didn't know the last post would be so high.

[hydrosun]

I made several hydro units with the Harris wheel screwed on a Motorcraft 70 amp alternator. I mounted the alternator on the lid of a square plastic bucket and cut holes on four sides to aim pvc pipe with 1/2 inch thread to screw in the old style Harris nozzles. I used pieces of inner tube attached to the lid to try to keep water out of the alternator bearings. Stock alterators will produce 12 volts efficiently at 100 feet head. I did find rewinding sources for 24 volt stators.

 I've since upgraded to the more efficient Permanent magnet Harris units. I've been very pleased with the extra power and less maintainance.  I can still get them direct from Don Harris because I'm a repeat customer for years now. I have seen the price rise substantially if I bought it from my usuall wholesale supplier of alternative energy parts.

  If I was trying to build a homemade unit today, I'd try the Fisher/ Paykel washing machine motor. Do a google search and you'll find someone making hydro kits using those motors. You can buy all or parts from the kit.

 The problem with any non adjustable permanent magnet is it is at it's peak efficiency at only one rpm and power output. It's more efficient than the alternator but not as efficient at varying flows. So in the fall when the stream is just starting to flow and the sun hasn't been seen in 2 weeks the batteries are going to be low. Because I've never had a backup gas generator it has been great to start the Harris hydro with 3 gallons/ minute and have enough power to keep the lights and refrigerator going.  With the old alternator system I usually would have to resort to unpluging the refrigerator to keep from totally draining the batteries. I consider the money spent on the PM unit the best investment I ever made.

 I had alot of fun trying incremental improvements in the hydro and other parts of my system over the years.  I learned alot and so will you.

Chris

[clflyguy]

Hey Oo,

  Try Googling ZENA alternators, very high quality automotive style with some very

nice electronics available with them to vary amps and such. Some are used for

welding. I have 2, one is 12v 150amp and the other is 24v 80amp.

[Oregonorganic]

 Thanks guys, from the looks of things a basic $100 Delco alternator is going to supply the 400 amps per day I need for my very modest needs.

[ibeweagle]

sorry to here about comments for newbies but would never but you down or look down on anyone that wants to be more green we all are learning and to your?  would also like you to try a 3 phase cheeper motor induction motor at 1800rpm that would self excite at 2000 rpms will help if you need some more info wish I had a hydro resource only live in town but have turbines on father farm will send new links about 3 phase motors alot of machine shops use ones to convert 1phase to 3 phase for there shops and also some that use them for hydro good luck ibeweagle@hotmail.com PS Electrician for 16 years cheers Mike

[ascii122]

Just came across this post looking for a nozzle source.  I built a home made hydro system using a pma

You might want to check it out

homebrewhydro.com

which more or less shows the steps in how i made mine.

I had some issues with getting the right coupler for the shaft for direct drive to GM alternator etc.

Might be of use

cheers

z