What kills CFLs?

[pyrocasto]

I've had 2 CFLs less than a year or so old go bad now. One happened after I put a light sensor on it, so when the sun came out it would turn off. When it was near light or near dark it would flicker alot, which caused it to last a couple of weeks max before it died.

Now, I have another one that was used in our garage for almost a year and it apparently died as well. Under normal use, they are supposed to last 6000-10000 hour right?

Both of these were either Lights of America, or GE brands so they werent flea market for $1 brands.

Anyone else have any problems with CFL longevity?

[DanB]

I think lots of on and off is bad for them - I think your light sensor was definitley a culprit.

Strong magnetic fields...  Ive learned that they dont like to be stuck to tools with strong magnets.  Sometimes a strong magnet will just make them not light up while near the strong magnet, sometimes it kills them for good!

[fishfarm]

Your post got me curious because I have used several in my house for more than 5 years without a problem (they are GE). I found a CFL FAQ and as usual, learned something. They don't recommend using them with sensors or timers unless designed for that application.

"Customers are advised to exercise caution and diligence when selecting timers and photocells for use with CFLs. Photocells contain a silicon chip that converts radiant energy into electrical current. Most photocells today do this in a manner that is incompatible with CFLs, resulting in a shortened lamp life. Timers are devices that allow trickle voltage to cycle through the lamp when it is off. This causes the lamp to try and start itself when there is not the proper supply voltage present. This also shortens the lamp life."

"In both cases CFLs are labeled as unsuitable for such use, because the user would not realize the average rated life from the bulb when used in this manner. Using CFLs in a manner inconsistent with their design voids any warranty. Customers should only use timers and photocells that are rated for use with CFLs."

http://www.penlight.org/pages/faq_pgs/cfl_faqs.html

[jimjjnn]

Cold also causes failure as most CFLs electronics are cold sensitive. There are some CFLs that are designed for outdoor cold weather use. I used a CFL as a porchlight for ten years . Then my daus started turning it off every day. It lasted only a year more. Not real sure that was reason for failure or end of life. Turning CFLs off and on is biggest reason for failures as the same porchlight CFL inside and being turned off and on fails in less than a year. I tried the autmatic turn on sensor and found that there is a voltage drop across the sensor. Lost 2 CFLs in 6 weeks before I read the instructions for the Sensor.It stated that lights would be dimmer cause of this and said "Do not use for FLOURESCENT lights". I have 2 globe shaped CFLs that are in a bathroom that is not used that often and they are still burning after 10 years.

Just sold house so I won't be able to see how long the last now.

[crashk6]

Looks like you've had a quick lesson in combination of electronics.

Yes it's true, a standard CFL should never be used with timers, dimmers, photocells, or computerized ambient light building controll systems. And can cause an electrical fire if improperly mated. But then so can any device if improperly deployed.

However there is hope, first I'll tackle your photocell issue, there are photo cell fixtures that are designed as florescent fixtures or to work with CFL's. Before replacing the whole fixture for one of the previously mentioned units you may wish to try one other route.

Look for a "dimmable" CFL or one certified to work with incandescent light controlls... these particular bulbs have a much more sophisticated voltage sensing electronic ballast and may solve your photo cell trouble... but all photo cell circuts are a smidge different so I can't guarantee it will work in you particular fixture... but it works for 80% of the ones I've fitted. The others simply don't light up... I only had magic smoke from one, but I already knew it would happen... Why some people ask for your expertise then ignore it and insist the opposite must be done is beyond me!

Anyway, and as the name implies dimmable CFL's may be used with most light dimming systems.

However timers are just as tricky as photocells as some will pass voltage and some will not. About two years ago I had to solve these same issues for my mother who rang me complaining her plant lights were eating up huge amounts of power... my first suggestion was a large wall of triple glazed window with thermal shades... I was even willing to speak with her landlord who for the record has been very understanding about all the other "wacky" changes... she didn't bite on that one...

She wanted electric lighting but wanted to switch the plant lights to fluorescent to save on usage, this was all logical to her as she had been using fluorescent for years for everything else... but there was a catch she wanted it to all be automatic... that's right... a timer!

The solution here was a fully digital appliance timer.. an appliance timer of this type is different from a mechanical lighting timer, as it uses a rely to switch things on and off. It is also has very low standby consumption and doesn't play with the voltage at all.

I mounted track lighting with large style fixture heads and installed dimmable CFL flood lamps in those to prevent the short ripple from the relay and the reactive current from the "shop light" type fixture over her african violet table from blowing the ballasts. And so far everything is behaving.

Anyway enough of this.. hope it helps a bit,

--

crashK6

[pyrocasto]

I wonder if that's it then. I dont turn the one in the garage on and off much, so I'm still not sure since the ones in the house are all doing great and some have been used long than that easily.

I like cfls, but not when they have a less or same lifespan as incandecent. I guess I'll have to do a few tests on it on temperature and moisture if I get a chance.

[FishbonzWV]

Chris

I've found they don't last in a globe fixture either. Must be the heat build up inside. I have one in a laundry room that burns 24/7 and it lasted about two years before failure. I probably have 20 others in the house and have had no failures.

At the camp there are 3 outdoors and have no failures, just a little slower to warm up in the cold.

Bonz

[nothing to lose]

I have one of those circle tube CFL lights that screws into a lightbulb socket. I got it back when we got the first trailer house and used car batteries and a 300watt invererter, I guess that was around 10 years ago maybe 11, it was before we really even moved here permanant. Used it on several inverters, crappy grid power, on and off allot, and perhaps even tossed in a box and forgotten about for a year at one time. I am not sure but I think I "might" have replaced the circle tube last year, really not sure if this is a new tube or the same one it came with

I never used timers or dimmers on it though. I only had one standard screw in type go bad, and that was my fault. I had it in a drop light hanging outside in the yard and forgot about it. It got very wet in a storm, water got inside the fixture, it only has a bright glow in one tiny spot now. Actualy I have not been using this type longer enough to know what life to expect, used them well over a year now though.

Perhaps the answer is use the timmers light sensors on a relay? If off the relay is totally off, if on then full power is on. None of the in between stuff of a tiny bit of power when off or less than full power when on. With a relay set up for totally off and totally on maybe they will last longer and still be controlled as wanted.

As for the cold effect, all I have ever noticed myself is they are harder to start when cold and also burn dimmer untill they warm themselfs up. I have been around alot of the long straight tube types for years, business, carnival rides etc.. talk about outdoor use, put a few on a 30' tall ride then spin it fairly fast like a Skydiver or Ferris wheel

Hot summers, cold rain, cold spring and fall in the north usa, etc...

Most I ever saw was sometimes having to rub them gently in the cold with your hand to get them started up. For the business ones they were fine and lasted many years and worked normall durring normal weather. Carnival ride tubes have a short average life not because of use abuse, because some clod drops a bull pin or hammer and it smashes 3 or 4 tubes on the way to the ground durring setup or teardowns.

[jimjjnn]

I had 2 globe lights in a bathroom that are still running great adter 10 years. just sold house so can't monitor anymore.

[ghurd]

I'll bet it is heat for sure, in a closed or restricted fixture.

I bought some of those 5W and 7W candelabra base CFLs for an upsidedown tulip globe. They cooked fast, like a maybe a week at most?

Generic Chinees regular bulbs had the glue between the glass and the brass base melt in a couple days use at most.

USA made regular bulbs last for years.

We used a mix of CFLs and regular in the same lights for a while.

Name brand 9 and 13 watt CFLs (like GE at least) are fine, with not a single replacement so far. At least a year now for the decent CFLs, compared to sometimes less than an hour for Regular bulbs before the glass fell out of the base.

Also.

Hours of life for a CFL are based on the hours of use per lighting. Meaning how many times it is turned on and off. That flickering surely shortened the life by a long time.  Maybe because of heat generated by the turning 'on' or 'open' cycle.

It seems some CFLs do net get along with inverters.  I would recommend getting a good quality 12VDC CFL for 12V battery use.

G-

[scottsAI]

Two things effect a CFL bulb's life.

1. Being on.
   
2. Turning on.
   
   

Each time a CFL is turned on reduces it's life.

Cold CFL starting reduces life even more.

If CFL is flickering, then it's going to dye soon.

Hot CFL reduces it's life. (not as bad as starting, unless hot hot)

A CFL turned on/off 4 times/day will have a shorter life than one left on all the time.

Most dimmers work by chopping the AC wave, CFL doesn't like that at all.

Most Photo switches use the same circuit as a dimmer. CFL don't like.

Some CFL work fine with modified sin, others do not.

If CFL makes a buzzing noise, it's complaining, turn off:-)

Instant on or ones with an electronic ballast, seem to last longer.

I do not like to walk into a dark room, which happens with the slow start.

My voltage is 120 to 126v. Long life bulbs last about 3-6 months.

CFL last years, even the ones turned on/off.

I would not use CFL with any cover, Restricts the light if nothing else, most likely will make it run hotter, thus shorting it's life. Most of my lights are florescent of some kind. I buy CFL by light color and eff.

100w => 1600 Lumans, max 23w CFL. I do not like the yellow CFL.

Have fun.

Scott.

[witapple]

We have run most every brand of cfl made in our barn. Right now the longest running was an Earthlight that made over 32,000 hours but there are several different brands at this point going on 26,000 hours. One out of 15 running continuously is getting dim and one failed within the first 3 months. In the house I have had some make 10 years and others not make a year but the worst track record of any brand is the Lights of America... i have not gotten any of thier new series bulbs to make more than 2000 hours and many of them failed in a matter of days. I got no response from their customer service when i contacted them.

I am sure the contiunuous running adds alot to their life.

Dan

[pyrocasto]

I'm suprise as I've had no problems with heat build up. I have two rooms with fixtures, each fixture holds 3 15 watt cfls inside a globe completel surrounded by glass or ceiling. Never over heated on me or burned out there yet.

[hiker]

i droped one on my work bench-looked ok so i screwed it in--left the shop for a while..

came back in and it was really dimm and pouring out smoke..don"t know if it would have caught on fire just glad i walked in when i did..now im kind of leary of them......

[Nando]

There are several types of CFLs.

One type using a magnetic choke to limit the current and operating at the AC voltage frequency. ( Mag CFL)

Another type is using an electronic ballast doing the job of the choke many times better. (ELCT-CFL)

The MAG-CFL hates MSW converters and may die soon, sometimes around less than 1000 hurs of life.

ELECT-CFL works with MSW well if the internal circuitry has a good storage capacitor to operate during the time the MSW waveform is not present.

Phosphors: there are two types of Phosphor CFLs.

CFLs with single Phosphor that have a much lower life, around 4 to 6000 hours.

CFLs with tri-phosphor that have a long life up to 12000 or 18000 hours with a much better white color.

Heat is the killer for a CFL lamp, specially if the lamp is down and the socket is up ( the electronic ballast is located between the socket and where the lamp tubing placement, with the circuit encased by a very small plastic form since the electronics is simple, two high voltage transistors with a small starting circuit and the storage DC Voltage capacitor.

Multiple ON-OFF switching is another killer that really shortens the lamp life, I do not remember now the life of the lamps versus the ON-OFF cycles but is quite damaging.

ELECT-CFLs with tri-phosphor should be the ones we should buy, though the cost is higher and one needs to find the right one.

The ELECT-CFLS do operate well with DC voltages ( 120 to 200 volts DC) for the 115 volts.

There is a third type and it is the electrode-less lamps that have more than 100,000 hours of life.

These lamps have a very special ballast, it is a Radio Frequency generator and the coil of the generator is wrap around the donut lamp that makes the RF to excite the mercury inside causing the phosphor to light up -- expensive and difficult to find because there is problems with the RF generated that is as well transmitted causing RFI ( Radio Frequency Interference) in radios near by.

So look for a lamp with tri-phosphor and electronic ballast for best life and light output, pay the added cost.

Regards

Nando

[electrondady1]

 i put a cfl in a cieling box light. it works ok, but when i turn it off it pulses on, just a flash of light maybe every ten seconds   for a few minuets , this is with the power off .  very strange!  any ideas?

[Nando]

The switch is leaking and you may have a CFL with an Electronic ballast that allows the storage capacitor to slowly charge and once it has enough energy the circuit tries to operate for a few short moments.

Also, some lamps without heaters are the ones that most of the time behave like that.

Regards

Nando

[steak2k1]

Kinda a curious on the Cold weather kills em..?

I have three 27w cfl's in outside carriage lamp type fixtures.  Avg winter temp in the evening (S. Alberta), is -15C to -25C. These lights are turned on/off probably 2-3 times a week or more.  They have been in there since Oct 2001...still going strong and give much better/stronger light than the 90w clears that were origanlly installed.

The attached garage has 2 - 27w inside and they get turned on 3-4 times a day...also been in there for 4 years.  Rest of house is pretty much cfl with many in fixtures that are smnoked glass covered.  

So far have only had to replace 2 and those ones were in a dining room fixture that was actually open. There I think the problem was that the flou tubes (spiral type), were touching the glass Chandelier as well as my hitting my head everytime I stand up from the dining room table.!

2 upstaris bathrooms had, when we first took possession, those 5 -6 light above the mirror type fixtures...with 90w incandescents..heck that is 450w to brush yor teeth. We replaced them with 12w cfls and have not had a problem since..more light too.!

Even if I have to replace 1 or 2 every couple of years, I will stick with cfl's for sure. they make a difference.

stk

[FishbonzWV]

The globe that really eats these...two hours max...is one that holds the bulb verticle with the base above the bulb on grid power. The one at camp is a horizontal globe fixture with 2 '100 watt' bulbs run throught a msw inverter and have had no burn outs. All my ceiling fans have the metal cone shaped holders with the base above bulb and no problems there. Seems like a little air keeps them cool enough to last.

Bonz

[richhagen]

Dan, it is amazing that you can use them at all with all the magnets you have out there!  I had some sylvania CFL's and the package specifically said not to run them through dimmers, and one light sensor I had said not to run CFL's.  I have a CFL in a different sensor in my entryway light, It's been up for a while.  It is a 'Phillips' and it doesn't seem to mind.  The Sylvania's wouldn't work right and would burn out quick, I believe I had the same issue with the GE ones.  So in conclusion, I think it differs with design and brand.   Rich  

[richhagen]

At my parents house, they have a recessed lighting fixture.  It is an older square box type fixture, that is embedded in insulation above it.  It gets real hot and Ive not found a bulb that can tolerate it for more than a few months.  Lower wattage regular bulbs do the best, the compact flourescents cooked as well.  Rich

[ghurd]

Everything I said was in different ceiling fans. I drilled a dozen 1/4" holes in the metal cups. It helped, a LOT.

The candelabra bulbs bases still got hotter than I wanted to touch. And they are not very bright. They look like regular bulbs from a distance. They must be more for 'candle' looking fixtures.  Maybe its just the quality at 'Big Lots'? hehe.

The one in the living room has 2 'Ikea'(sp?) 7W, (3 were just too bright). One empty socket.  The 2 7W are far brighter than 3 at 5W.  We don't use the light often.  The empty socket and long protruding bulbs don't show much, as the whole thing is white. (Yee-Haw!)  Took a while, but my wife got over it.

[ghurd]

Try a 40W 'appliance bulb' for driers / ovens / etc.  The clear ones are better than frosted.

[Ungrounded Lightning Rod]

I've had a lamp do that too.  It was in a circuit with three-way switches on opposite sides of the room, and the fixture fed from the "upstream" end with one switch at the end of a "spur line" (so it had three "hot" wires and the only ground was the drain).

I've always assumed the problem was leakage across the switch - capacitive coupling from the long wire run or maybe dirt, moisture, or an ant in the switch - coupled with no drain resistor across the cap, or a combination, so the leakage would charge the main cap just enough to make the light do a single-cycle blink occasionally.  (Only noticable at night.)

Changed to a different make of bulb and it stopped doing that.

[Ungrounded Lightning Rod]

Now that I think about it - one of the switches was the "illuminated" type, with the neon bulb across the contacts powered by lamp leakage.  That could have given it enough of a base charge to get it most of the way toward a blink.

[whatsnext]

I'm not too sure if cold really kills them. I have a few that have run a few winters in the garage without problems. I do notice that some of my older twister style bulbs have  little black, hard bits floating within the tubes. I'm kind of curious where that stuff is coming from. I've also notice that if you leave the cheap blue-light chinese ones on long enough they eventually loose most of the blue and become a pretty nice white, once warm. Also I have yet to have one of the chinese cheapies fail and my house has very high line voltage. 125-128VAC.

John.......

[nickelbender]

They don't like heat so don't put them in enclosed fixtures.

A Chinese company called "join-luck" manufactured a series of light sthat had a recall on them a coulpe of years ago that were sold under the brand name "Globe". They were junk and burned a few homes.

I have some older 9 watts I use out side with but they use a transformer ballast I still prefer that..

[richhagen]

I might have to try that, but it is over a table and they have usually had a 100 watt incandescent or equivelant, so I don't think they will like the reduced output.  Personally, I'd replace the fixture and patch the ceiling, but it's not up to me.  Rich

[maker of toys]

before you do that, try just replacing the socket portion.  I've run into a few fixtures where the socket was not making good contact with the wire. . . loose, corroded rivets, that sort of thing. . . . makes for a flickery incandecent- sometimes so fast that you can hear the flicker but not see it.  that'll kill just about any bulb pretty fast.  the problem seems to crop up with fixtures that have been heat stressed at some point in their life. . .

Just a thought.

[maker of toys]

If there's inductive coupling ('crosstalk') between the wire serving that fixture and another line that is carrying significant current (say to the HVAC plant, electric stove, fridge or other motorized device), you could see the same sort of behavior.  the solution there is to seperate the wires in question by a few inches (6-8 cms.) along their entire length.

You can diagnose a cross-talk situation by turning off the breaker to the fixture and looking for more than 10VAC present across the legs of the circuit in the fixture.  Or, you could see if the problem persists with the breaker off. . . . which is definitive.

Nando-

I've not encountered enough 'leaky' switches to diagnose one.  what are the earmarks?

-Dan

[JYL]

IKEA CFL with a Plastic globe covering the lamp are very hot puppy compare to any other CFL I have seen.

The IKEA 7W candelabra and also 13W E27 Based using this same soft clear plastic are both very hot and low efficiency.  They are also slow to start up.

For example, the 13W might be good to replace a 40 Watts incandescentlight ... No more.

I have some Globe 7W (with glass cover) that offer better and more light.

[ghurd]

BIG Mistake.  

The 5W 'Big Lots' candelabras. They are marked '7W Lights of America'.

I did get them at Big Lots.

They have a plastic globe to look like a regular frosted bulb.  

They are horrid. Hot. Dim. Full brightness doesn't come for 2 or 3 minutes maybe.

There is NO way 3 of these are as bright as a single 9W Ikea (without a globe).

I always liked everything I had from 'LoA', until just now.

My (4 or 5 year old) Ikea's are just the straight tubes. No plastic globes.

They run quite cool. Nice color and bright.  They do delay start, but I don't care where they all are used.  Due to the nature of Ikea's business, I doubt they still use the same supplier that made the bulbs I have.  They didn't have globe styles at the time.

Cheapest I ever saw CFLs at the time, so I bought half a truck full.

G-

[ghurd]

Getting shocked is how I know. Hehe.

'Glow' switches do it too.

G-