Author Topic: Building a Fluorescent Inverter  (Read 9830 times)

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Norm

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Building a Fluorescent Inverter
« on: November 08, 2007, 11:55:34 PM »
I'm planning on trying to build a 12volt

flourescent driver like this:

http://www.talkingelectronics.com/projects/FluorescentInverter/FluorescentInverter.html

...but why do you need a ferrite core for the

transformer and can't you just buy one or are

they that expensive?

      ( :>) Norm.

BTW I took a monitor apart and saved all the

electronic goodies....but what do I do with the

CRT? Is it a no no to implode it in a cardboard

box and have it recycled as glass?
« Last Edit: November 08, 2007, 11:55:34 PM by (unknown) »

disaray1

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Re: Building a Fluorescent Inverter
« Reply #1 on: November 08, 2007, 05:55:35 PM »
 Norm, can't tell you much about the ferrite, but the CRT contains a bunch of lead and should be disposed of properly. Recycle centers take them here- maybe your place too?


 Ferrite...two kinds- soft and hard. That's about it. Hmmmm. Some one here will tell us.


  David


 

« Last Edit: November 08, 2007, 05:55:35 PM by disaray1 »

commanda

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Re: Building a Fluorescent Inverter
« Reply #2 on: November 08, 2007, 06:34:30 PM »
It's to do with operating frequency and hysteresis losses. Soft iron won't work at these frequencies. And fluoro's give off more lumens per watt when run at much higher frequencies than the usual 50 or 60 Hz mains.


Yes you can just buy one. Rat Shack or your local equivalent carry blank ferrite antennas. Or scrounge one or more next council cleanup day. Anything that looks like an AM radio should have one.


Amanda

« Last Edit: November 08, 2007, 06:34:30 PM by commanda »

Norm

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Re: Building a Fluorescent Inverter
« Reply #3 on: November 08, 2007, 07:03:32 PM »
Thanks Disaray1 and Commanda for answering both my

questions ...been wondering about them for some

time....now I know and maybe a few others will

also.

              ( :>) Norm.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2007, 07:03:32 PM by Norm »

terry5732

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Re: Building a Fluorescent Inverter
« Reply #4 on: November 08, 2007, 07:21:19 PM »
The flyback in the monitor has a ferrite core
« Last Edit: November 08, 2007, 07:21:19 PM by terry5732 »

JohnC

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Re: Building a Fluorescent Inverter
« Reply #5 on: November 08, 2007, 07:29:02 PM »
I have seen a simular circuit, but instead of winding wire around a core, you could buy a 120v ac to 6 v dc walwart.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2007, 07:29:02 PM by JohnC »

Norm

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Re: Building a Fluorescent Inverter
« Reply #6 on: November 08, 2007, 10:34:48 PM »
Is that the black plastic thing in an aluminum

enclosure? The flyback transformer? Know of a

link for instructions how to get it apart...

or do you just use hacksaw solder gun and stuff?

      ( :>) Norm
« Last Edit: November 08, 2007, 10:34:48 PM by Norm »

David HK

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Re: Building a Fluorescent Inverter
« Reply #7 on: November 09, 2007, 04:15:10 AM »
I have built four of these coils in the last few weeks using ferrite cores. I am told that ferrite cores possess the right Q factor - whatever that means - and is far superior to iron cores.


The circuit you are about to build is excellent and performs well.


I did post an entry on this site about a week ago entitled COIL NOISE, but the thought police seem to have erased it which I thought was a bit unfriendly.


Suffice to say that two of my coils run silently whilst the other two emit a slightly audible whine. Why is this and what can be done to stop it?


Finally, make sure you use some good size heat sinks because the TIP 3055 does get very hot to the point where the solder will melt thus relieving the contact wires from the TIP legs.


I will try and post some photographs in the next 24 hours so that this article is all inclusibe on the same subject.


One more request. Can anyone recommend the number of wire turns for this circuit to suit a 24 volt DC operation.


I hope you find my contribution helpful


David HK

« Last Edit: November 09, 2007, 04:15:10 AM by David HK »

Norm

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Re: Building a Fluorescent Inverter
« Reply #8 on: November 09, 2007, 06:56:32 AM »
David Hk, Yes quite helpful ....2 out of 4 quite

noisy, if they were all built exactly the same?

has to be something different about the 2 that are noisy.

Maybe the heat sinks are different and amplify

the whine?

Coil Noise I doubt if anyone removed it...maybe

it was just moved to a different section?

Looking forward to your photos sounds like you

are fairly new at this fluoro inverter business too?

 I'm a little dissappointed in some of these

CFLs.

        ( :>) Norm.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2007, 06:56:32 AM by Norm »

Jon Miller

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Re: Building a Fluorescent Inverter
« Reply #9 on: November 09, 2007, 11:51:25 AM »
Im waiting for flux


lol

« Last Edit: November 09, 2007, 11:51:25 AM by Jon Miller »


RP

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Re: Building a Fluorescent Inverter
« Reply #10 on: November 09, 2007, 02:15:23 PM »
The flyback transformer will be connected (through an in-line rectifier) to the side of the CRT.  Find the little suction cup looking thing on the side of the CRT and follow the (probably red colored) wire back down to the flyback.  The transformer will have a ferrite core in a rectangular shape.


NOTE:  The CRT acts as a high voltage vacuum capacitor and can store a lethal charge.  Before fiddling with the anode wire (the red one from the flyback), ground a screwdriver to the monitor chassis and stick the end of it under the lip of the suction cup connector to discharge the energy stored inside the CRT.


Yes, yes, maybe your CRT's been removed for 5 years or so but someone else googling into this thread may not know the dangers, etc...

« Last Edit: November 09, 2007, 02:15:23 PM by RP »

RP

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Re: Building a Fluorescent Inverter
« Reply #11 on: November 09, 2007, 02:17:12 PM »
The noise could be due to a crack in the ferrite causing an audible vibration or loose windings.  Anything unsecured can act as a speaker voicecoil.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2007, 02:17:12 PM by RP »

commanda

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Re: Building a Fluorescent Inverter
« Reply #12 on: November 09, 2007, 02:30:16 PM »
Can anyone recommend the number of wire turns for this circuit to suit a 24 volt DC operation.


Educated guess; double the number of turns on the primary, and double the value of the 180R.


As for the audible whine. Oscillation frequency is too low. There isn't anything much that sets the frequency, it just finds it's own. Make the 100nF smaller (47nF?). Try a different tube. Try a different transistor. 3055's aren't particularly fast. They don't even work that well in hi-fi audio. Last resort is to soak the coil in either varnish or hot wax.


Amanda

« Last Edit: November 09, 2007, 02:30:16 PM by commanda »

Flux

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Re: Building a Fluorescent Inverter
« Reply #13 on: November 10, 2007, 02:36:04 AM »
Jon you shouldn't do this. I had no intention of replying to this.


I abandoned those crude fluorescent drivers about 20 years ago. Amanda has summed it up, there is nothing defined that determines how the things work. Any flyback converter that drives spikes of high enough voltage across a fluorescent tube will light it in some form.


These things work well enough to get you light at low cost but the efficiency is low and on many low powered systems lumens per watt is the thing to aim for. if you have excess power and go for cost these things may suit your need.


The best thing is to build batches of these things all with the same components and when you have got it right then it is usually repeatable. The ferrite core is mainly the thing that determines the operating condition and even identical looking ferrite rods from different sources may not even be the same. Any attempt at replacing an open ferrite rod with a closed or partly closed ferrite core will need complete rehashing of the other components.


Even when using identical components the operating mode may not be the same for all units, transistor gain has tolerances even if you use the same transistor type. Changes in the number of turns or positioning of the feedback winding also drastically affect things.


Cold striking tubes is bad, but as the rest of the circuit is bad then it may be justified. Even with tube heating it is nearly impossible to get current flow in both directions and the tube blackens at one end from the dc component.


Squealing is due to too low a frequency, but these things often work in several unstable modes and some will shift mode and squeal sometimes and not others. Amanda gives advice on this and I also agree that the TIP 3055 is not a good transistor for this job.


That circuit will never drive 20 or 40W tubes to full brightness, don't even try. It does seem that running a few watts on large tubes gives far better tube life than running little tubes at correct power. The little camping units driving small tubes near rated power seem to blacken them in a few hours running.


Change to 24v, I agree with Amanda's starting point, but don't be surprised if it decides to work in a different mode and you may have to change lots of things.


Driving fluorescents properly is not easy and I have never seen a single ended converter that does it well.


Flux

« Last Edit: November 10, 2007, 02:36:04 AM by Flux »

Jon Miller

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Re: Building a Fluorescent Inverter
« Reply #14 on: November 10, 2007, 03:58:40 AM »
"Jon you shouldn't do this. I had no intention of replying to this."


Hi Flux,


I look forward to reading you comments as your broad knowledge and clear explanations make it easy to grasp whats what.


Sorry about pressuring you.

« Last Edit: November 10, 2007, 03:58:40 AM by Jon Miller »


Norm

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Re: Building a Fluorescent Inverter
« Reply #15 on: November 10, 2007, 05:44:53 PM »
Flux, But thanks for replying to this ....I'm

glad you did...you did me a great favor...so

I guess I'm better off just using the 12 volt 225

watt Vector inverter that I already have

to drive 2-40 watt tubes.

I didn't realize it would be such a pain and not

worthwhile ...I just got caught up in all the

hype ...as usual.

   Thanks again for taking the time to set me straight.

            ( :>) Norm.


 

« Last Edit: November 10, 2007, 05:44:53 PM by Norm »

JW

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Re: Building a Fluorescent Inverter
« Reply #16 on: November 10, 2007, 08:12:33 PM »
Ahh-HAAA,


 THIS IS WHY IM HOTTTTT.


I preiffer using the IOTA(high-watt) solid-state ballast, since its produces no RF interference(at least detectable)(with my make-shift antenni[probe] hooked into Fluke 123 scopemeter within close proximity).


 I have a Garmin 392 GPS-MAP(marine) hooked up within 6inchs of my compass that has a small watt(maybe 5watt) incandesnt lamp.


 Im running 7200Lumans of light from 2 FO40T8's(60" 6500k) on each side of a 14ft skiff boat, driven by 2(stand-alone) 48 watt ballasts(12v), in an un-grounded, aluminum housing about 4inch by 3inch by 11inch. and this is within 2feet of the GPS.


  Since the outboard has a zinc, I see no other reasons to attract a lighting-strike in a storm. However I can do atleast 20knots on a full plane. Besides I have not found a GFCI that will trip-out at 600v. So, quite frankly, I see no way to groud-falt the fluorescent HV-circuit.


 But my GPS MAP seems to work ok. While the fluorescents are running. Let alone my compass, atleast if everthing else shorts-out.


JW

« Last Edit: November 10, 2007, 08:12:33 PM by JW »

JW

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« Last Edit: November 10, 2007, 08:46:49 PM by JW »

wooferhound

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« Last Edit: November 11, 2007, 05:07:34 PM by wooferhound »

JW

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Re: Building a Fluorescent Inverter
« Reply #19 on: November 12, 2007, 12:59:51 PM »
Hi Woof,














This ballast is totally freaking me out, I measured ac volts across the ends and its like only 102vac. I will have to set the scope up on this, and take a pic of the waveform.


My best guess, at this point, is that the ballast is totally digital(invertor type). That would explain the lack of anytype of detectable interference.


:)


JW

« Last Edit: November 12, 2007, 12:59:51 PM by JW »

JW

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Re: Building a Fluorescent Inverter
« Reply #20 on: November 13, 2007, 05:46:57 PM »
So I hooked up the scope,


 I cant get anytype of voltage reading off the thing. So Im dead in the water on this one. Sorry guys.


 


I will either have to open it up and change the voltmeter fuse or have someone else do it for me. I have changed the one on my fluke 88 many times, that worked out ok. But im a little shy with the 123. I will get this up and running soon.


I know its set for dc, I was doing some trouble-shooting and I cant even read that(dc), funny thing is, I can test diodes, use the continuity tester and ohm-meter.


JW

« Last Edit: November 13, 2007, 05:46:57 PM by JW »

JW

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Re: Building a Fluorescent Inverter
« Reply #21 on: November 13, 2007, 06:51:05 PM »









I installed 42 of these FO30T8's in a paint spray booth that we use at work, last week. I upgraded the ballasts aswell, They are intellivolt AC balasts single phase that operate from 110vac to 277vac.


 This IOTA(high-watt) solidstate 12dc ballast behaves exactly the same as the'solidstate AC' intellivolt.


 When I make and brake the connection, to one end of the bulb, the arc I pull from the gap is totally identical, in both color and intensity.


 With the DC ballast there is less flicker from the bulb, and I think its abit brighter. but the ark is identical.


I have to be careful when I pull an arc of the end of the bulb, the wire lead to it gets mighty hot real fast.  


 When I set the scope on this bulb, im going to take and compare the readings from both AC and DC ballasts.


JW

« Last Edit: November 13, 2007, 06:51:05 PM by JW »

claude

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Re: Building a Fluorescent Inverter
« Reply #22 on: November 19, 2007, 11:54:49 PM »
Hi Norm,


As Flux pointed out, these are crude inverters. God knows I had my share of hand winding ferrite cores for that circuit. I tried different shapes and sizes, they all work (in principle) as long as you keep the no. of windings as requested.


For me, best results came out by using a ferrite ring (I think it was a filtering ferrite ring. Hand-winding that was a real torture, took me 2 days and had to make a special tool (a long nail with all the wire on it that I was able to squeeze thru that ring's hole). The resulted transformer was whining but after trying different cap values I found one that stopped that noise AND made the transistor much cooler. However, 12V gave out blinding amounts of light but quickly heated things up. Best use for mine was at 6V, with a smaller 4W tube, and it doesn't even need a heatsink. That was almost as bright as the AC inverter I had for that tube.


Eventually I managed to fit the entire circuit inside a 15W CFL bulb base and re-used the tube from that bulb. It works fine, taking 0.5 Amps @ 6V but the light wasn't quite up to the 3W it used.


Later I purchased a 12V/5W CFL solar bulb and a 12V/8W CFL tube inverter too and realized that my best efforts couldn't match the amount of light or the efficiency those things exhibited. I realized that the time I spent trying to make mine was more expensive than the commercial unit's price. Eversince, I'm a buyer.


Claude

« Last Edit: November 19, 2007, 11:54:49 PM by claude »

Electron Skipper

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Re: Building a Fluorescent Inverter
« Reply #23 on: March 08, 2008, 12:55:51 AM »
There is nothing wrong with building experimental circuits, as these lead to innovation, and really should not be discouraged.  One thing I would add to the circuit though is to include a 2 Ohm 10 or 15 Watt resistor in the supply line.


I see the plans as an excellent tool for educational purposes for exposing kids to many of life's lessons.  I am glad it was posted.


I salvaged a number of "Emergency Ballasts," removed the charging aspects of them, as well as the boiled out nicads, and most worked well straight off 12 volts, but a few died quick deaths, but the replacement transistors had enough design difference from the originals, that a 2 volt resistor of significant wattage was needed.  These are typically a double ended system.  But are only rated at 70 Lumens on a 4 foot tube.  But they work well on the 20 Watt tubes down to some undercabinet T12 types.


The emergency ballasts lighting circuit is essentially upsized from the Zetex circuit I have mentioned several times.  Which BTW, is not much more than a freerunning inverter supply.


"Q" is in an oversimplified way- how sharp can you tune your tuned circuit?- which is what you actually have with florescent lighting.  Which also explains in a nutshell most of the problems people have described so far.


BTW, Lead in CRT's is actually the clarifying agent for glass.  If your monitor is a CRT, you are reading this through fine lead crystal.  Between 2 and 6 per cent content.  Anything higher leads to weak glass and an implossion hazard potential.  Most of what you read on CRT's is circular hype by someone who meant well.  Nipping the end seal where the pins are is a reasonably "safer" method of dealing with the static charge they may hold, as well as eliminating the implosion hazard, and there is no mercury in a CRT.


On matters of noise: In the audible spectrum, been covered well. In the RF range- most electronic ballast circuits will emit Amplitude Modulated noise.  It's inescabale  Put an AM pocket radio next to one, and you should hear a whine.  It is a matter of where you locate your operating frequency for your lighting circuit that may or may not interfere with some modes of communications.  GPS is not an AM signal, so it will be immune.  Longer wavelength HF can be where you will hear your RF interference- when my batteries get low, tunning below 5 MHZ is tough.  HF gear is in an oversimplified description an AM mode reciever.  


For migrane sufferers- florescent lighting may not be the best choice, no matter how they are driven.

« Last Edit: March 08, 2008, 12:55:51 AM by Electron Skipper »