batteries in the basement

[GeeMac]

Is it okay to have deep cycle batteries in my basement or is there a danger from hydrogen gas build up?

[luckeydog]

Yes it is ok. the amount of hydrogen released by the batteries during charging is so small that it dissipates quickly. just don't keep the batteries in an airtight container.

[RogerAS]

GeeMac,

I would not place flooded, sealed or any type of lead acid bateries in my house. There's more to it than hydrogen, but that's enough. A tiny bit of highly explosive gas leaking is no big deal, but a thermal runaway, dead short or other condition might arise that results in the batteries venting a great deal of hydrogen very quickly. Remember the German airships? KABOOOM!!!

The fumes contain tiny droplets of sulphuric acid as well as hydrogen when being charged agressively, like during an qualization phase. I wouldn't want this anywhere in my house. The tell tale smell of rotten eggs is this sulphuric acid or sulphur dioxide which will recombine into sulphuric acid when contacted by water. Even the humidity in the air will cause this reaction.

A pile of lead, a toxic heavy metal, presents a major problem to public safety workers. Would you want to release all that extra toxin should you house burn down? Would you want them to have to deal with that while trying to save your house? Also that lead mass is extended outside the plastic case to the cable lugs. Lead ain't good and if a little gets into the basement floor what then? Have you seen those disclaimers about lead when a house is sold?

Batteries have, do and will explode. I've seen it happen to my own car! Do you want that risk in your basement?

Moving heavy batteries into and out of your basement might be that big a deal to you, but if you become disabled the job falls to someone else. What then?

It's like in the movie "Jurassic Park": Just because you can doesn't mean you should.

My opinion is to build a very well sealed and insulated box outside and deal with those problems and keep you house, family and others as safe as you can from any possible dangers associated with the use of lead acid batteries. Why take the chance?

One mans thinking.

[luv2weld]

Here is a related post--

http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2007/6/27/7811/44777

Also you can Google search the board or look under the heading Storage(under the

D in Forcefield at the top of this page)

Ralph

[TomW]

Roger;

Very good points, indeed.

Too often folks jump in and give advice that should be questioned, regardless of some possibility of offending the poster. Some would call it being negative but I call it being honest.

Take an auto battery as an example.

It is pretty well ventilated under there. It is an extreme environment temperature wise. that gunk that builds up on the posts and anything near the terminals is the affects of recombined sulphuric acid vapors. Remember under the hood of the vehicle there is lots of air movement when in normal use. The corrosive action still occurs. Not many of us want that happening inside our furnace, water heater or wiring in the basement.

Box them and vent them is my advice and what I do, in fact, mine are in a regularly occupied space but with the box and venting I have no concerns.

Cheers.

TomW

[winston]

I placed my battery bank in the basement in plastic vented to the outside containers.

no problems in 7 years

btw be sure to put screen or some such over the outside vent to keep out critters

[kenputer]

Just a little more info would make it easier to help you out,

 are they just being stored or are they connected to a charging source and if so what is the source?

kenputer

[luckeydog]

"My opinion is to build a very well sealed and insulated box outside and deal with those problems and keep you house, family and others as safe as you can from any possible dangers associated with the use of lead acid batteries. Why take the chance?"

the above is bad advice

I have worked in the Battery business for years. I have worked in an environment where batteries are charged indoors (NOT! IN A SEALED CONTAINER) on a massive scale. only 2 batteries i have seen explode. out of hundreds of thousands. these were new and refurbished batteries. there is a lot of hoopla when it comes to the dangers of charging batteries. a gas stove poses much more of a threat to your self and family than charging a small bank of batteries.

Never charge batteries in a sealed container this is where the possibility of an explosion can occur.

[Devo]

"I have worked in the Battery business for years. I have worked in an environment where batteries are charged indoors (NOT! IN A SEALED CONTAINER) on a massive scale. only 2 batteries i have seen explode. out of hundreds of thousands. these were new and refurbished batteries. there is a lot of hoopla when it comes to the dangers of charging batteries. a gas stove poses much more of a threat to your self and family than charging a small bank of batteries."

Depends on the rate of charge going into the battery , charging a battery with a charger & having a run away wind mill without adequate dump loads & charge controllers is 2 different animals. I have had a bank of batteries boiling in my shed during  a heavy windstorm with no charge controller-thought the bank was big enough.The fumes where bad ,unbearable.

I also know a mechanic who had a battery explode in his face once when putting on jumper cables.

I,m not saying don't put them inside I'm agreeing 100% with Tom , If there indoors have them in there own container sealed from the basement & vented outside.

Devo

[RogerAS]

Lucky,

I misstated my poistion. When I said sealed I did not mean a sealed container as in a jar with no room for gas expansion. I meant like a sealed box, like a deep freeze that would contain the spills which could and does happen with batteries. In that regard I was indeed wrong, and hydrogen gas venting is absolutely required. I would hope the readers would have known this and I was wrong in that assumption. I would have thought my voiced concerns with this gas production in my post would have made this self evident, but apparently this was not the case, for all.

However were the situations where you saw these massive banks of batteries in a residence? Did these batteries or indeed the structure belong to you and were you responsible for any lead contamination that would have occured? Are you willing to assure that relatively rare event of a battery failing via explosion is nothing to worry about in the basement of a residence? Do you feel an ordinary home owner will have professional equipment, procedure and training at hand to deal with these problems. If you answer "no" to any of these questions I must take issue with your dismissive attitude. If I read your intent wrong feel free to correct my thinking.

Every house sale in the US now has to be either inspected to be free of lead or the seller signs a statement that lead does not exist on the property. This is not "hoopla" and the owner can be held responsible for certified cleanup in the event of lead contamination. This is NOT my opinion but federal law. If the house is worthless now means nothing. One cannot simply walk away, legally. If the property owner is found to have caused this contamination he/she is responsible. It seems a simple precaution to NOT put ones future into financial jeopardy for the sake of making the job of keep up with batteries easy.

I contend the statement that a gas appliance creates a greater risk cannot be backed up with statistical evidence, and is based on a straw man argument. How many houses have battery banks as opposed to those with gas appliances. Does the underwriter labs certify battery banks rigged up by an amatuer in his/her basement? Even if a hot water tank fails and burns the house down it does not add free lead to the environment and will not require special cleanup measures. I would ask my insurance agent and rely on neither my advice or anyone elses'. It might also be best to check with local/state laws regarding code issues.

Sheez, what has happened to this board in the past 2 years?

[erne]

listen to tom about the venting and remember batteries need to be kept warm inorder to maintain their a/h storage. -----erne

Battery Temperature Multiplier

 80°F/26.7°C  =1.00

 70°F/21.2°C   =1.04

 60°F/15.6°C  =1.11

 50°F/10.0°C  =1.19

 40°F/4.4°C    =1.30

30°F/-1.1°C   =1.40

 20°F/-6.7°C  =1.59

     The most common batteries for PV systems are lead acid storage batteries, similar to automotive batteries but use antimony lead instead of calcium sponge lead. The liquid is sulfuric acid and water. Both batteries produce hydrogen gas when nearing full charge. Lead calcium batteries can supply large amounts of current (amps) for short periods. They also retain more of their charge when left inactive for long periods of time. By contrast lead antimony batteries can be repeatedly discharged from 50 to 80 percent of their capacity and are the choice for off-grid systems. Their life will be greatly extended if the discharge rate is kept below 40% and the temperature is kept as close as possible to 80 degrees.

     The storage capacity of a lead antimony battery is expressed in amp-hours at a certain discharge rate, instead of cranking amps. This is the amount of time a battery can deliver its full rated capacity. Thus a 100 amp-hour battery rated at 20 hours can deliver 5 amps for 20 hours under ideal conditions. If the discharge rate is greater the amp-hour capacity will be less and if the discharge rate is less it will be greater. Thus 20 amps instead of 5 amps would reduce its capacity to 60 amp-hours. Battery temperature must also be considered in the design. The stated capacity of a battery (amp hours) is rated when the battery is 80°F. When the same battery is 40°F, its capacity is only 75 percent of its rating and at 0°F, its capacity is half of its rating. If the batteries will be located in an unheated area, the lowest temperature should be considered in the sizing of the storage system. The lower the temperature the lower the storage capacity will be. So this same battery being discharged at 20 amps at 30 degrees would be 46 amp-hours. This also reduces the life of the battery. You can see why it is so important to keep the batteries warm.

[vawtman]

Geemac

 If you are gridtied i would shy away from batteries and use water to store your energy.

 The turbine would be more efficient also.

 If not then you gotta due what you gotta due.

 My .02 worth.

 

[vawtman]

Oops DO, dah

[luckeydog]

OMG do you get any sleep at night worrying about these things.

my point is that lead acid batteries are as safe as any appliance in your home

this includes your refrigerator. children get trapped in refrigerators every year.

dose this mean you would not put it in your home..... no of course not.

I believe you probably have a greater chance of getting struck by lightning walking in a rain storm than getting injured by a properly maintained battery bank.

I know batteries better than most I know the small threat they pose. and that threat is  too small to lose any sleep over.