Author Topic: question on my wind turbine  (Read 3896 times)

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sregit

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question on my wind turbine
« on: August 08, 2007, 09:19:54 PM »
I finally got my turbine up and as I write this I have good winds of about 15 to 20 miles an hour but the blades will not spin at all. I checked them before I put it up to make sure they spun freely with no hang ups, the turbine moves in the wind fine with the tail fin but the blades do not at all. The only thing I can think is the pole I have it on is not exactly straight, would this be the problem? If so why?


sregit: I think you will get a lot of questions asking for more details. I pushed this to the Front Page so we can get you up and running. T

« Last Edit: August 08, 2007, 09:19:54 PM by (unknown) »

vawtman

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Re: question on my wind turbine
« Reply #1 on: August 08, 2007, 03:30:50 PM »
Hi Sregit

 I think only Ron could answer this.Tha rest of us would need more info and a pic maybe.Im not a hawt guy but maybe it cant furl or find the wind properly if not straight.I would say the first thing to do is level it.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2007, 03:30:50 PM by vawtman »

sregit

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Re: question on my wind turbine
« Reply #2 on: August 08, 2007, 04:06:57 PM »
Here is a pic<BR><img src="http://www.otherpower.com/images/scimages/7569/A__MVC_057S.JPG" width=80%><BR>
« Last Edit: August 08, 2007, 04:06:57 PM by sregit »

sregit

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Re: question on my wind turbine
« Reply #3 on: August 08, 2007, 04:09:18 PM »


« Last Edit: August 08, 2007, 04:09:18 PM by sregit »

CmeBREW

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Re: question on my wind turbine
« Reply #4 on: August 08, 2007, 05:04:19 PM »
Hello Sregit,

    Do you have a close up picture of the turbine.  Is the generator straight up and down even though the pole is bent? I believe that could cause it to not be directly in line with the wind- and/or the mill would have problems turning (yawing) correctly. Or, the problem can be many possible things. What kind of a generator is it?. How big are the blades? How many blades? Do they have a pitch to them? A close up picture will most likely reveal the problem.  
« Last Edit: August 08, 2007, 05:04:19 PM by CmeBREW »

sregit

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Re: question on my wind turbine
« Reply #5 on: August 08, 2007, 05:32:56 PM »
I have a 30 vdc Ametek motor and the blades are only about five feet diameter the pitch I don't know but the tips are very thin. The pic is as close as I can get without taking it all the way down.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2007, 05:32:56 PM by sregit »

sregit

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Re: question on my wind turbine
« Reply #6 on: August 08, 2007, 05:36:40 PM »


« Last Edit: August 08, 2007, 05:36:40 PM by sregit »

CmeBREW

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Re: question on my wind turbine
« Reply #7 on: August 08, 2007, 05:50:24 PM »
Wow- thats really strange. Those are nice blades and 5 feet diameter--that mill should be really spinning fast and making good power in that obvious good wind. Are you sure there is no short in the wires touching together anywhere? Standing straight underneath the mill, does it seem the mill is pointed directly into the wind? Is there anyway you can manually turn the mill (perhaps by pulling on the wires?) to see if it makes any difference?  Other than that, got me baffled!!
« Last Edit: August 08, 2007, 05:50:24 PM by CmeBREW »

vawtman

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Re: question on my wind turbine
« Reply #8 on: August 08, 2007, 06:10:39 PM »
Oh boy i think the blades are too thin to overcome the slight cog these have.I Think


 Where did you get the blades from?Are they designed for the Gen?

« Last Edit: August 08, 2007, 06:10:39 PM by vawtman »

TomW

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Re: question on my wind turbine
« Reply #9 on: August 08, 2007, 06:15:54 PM »
segrit;


If it is an Ametek and the diode are on the ground try just bypassing the diode put some D.C. voltage into it and see if it will motor.


Just an idea.


Cheers.


TomW

« Last Edit: August 08, 2007, 06:15:54 PM by TomW »

sregit

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Re: question on my wind turbine
« Reply #10 on: August 08, 2007, 07:06:04 PM »
I got them off of ebay and the company that sells them say they work real well with the ametek motors.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2007, 07:06:04 PM by sregit »

vawtman

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Re: question on my wind turbine
« Reply #11 on: August 08, 2007, 07:16:32 PM »
A possible link to the co.


 Sorry to be a bother but you will be asked in time.


 Its cool to see a guy hang in there and not leave things hang out in the open.


 The more you ask the more help.

« Last Edit: August 08, 2007, 07:16:32 PM by vawtman »

sregit

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Re: question on my wind turbine
« Reply #12 on: August 08, 2007, 07:30:04 PM »
The name of the company is survival unlimted its easy to find on the web. they sell lots of stuff for turbines and other things
« Last Edit: August 08, 2007, 07:30:04 PM by sregit »

sregit

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Re: question on my wind turbine
« Reply #13 on: August 08, 2007, 07:38:24 PM »
No I made real sure there were no exposed wires they are wound together and have the electric cover on both wires. And I have tried moving it around from the ground with no luck.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2007, 07:38:24 PM by sregit »

sregit

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Re: question on my wind turbine
« Reply #14 on: August 08, 2007, 08:11:01 PM »
I did and it moved around just fine.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2007, 08:11:01 PM by sregit »

CmeBREW

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Re: question on my wind turbine
« Reply #15 on: August 08, 2007, 08:33:48 PM »
Sregit,

    I see the blades you got here:


http://www.survivalunlimited.com/windpower/turbineblades.htm


They say these are the 'better' Air-x replacement blades. Who knows.

However, I don't believe the Airx has any cogging whatsoever.  Probably the 6 blades would have worked far better with the slight cogging of an Ammetec motor. But I don't think its worth the money. Like Vawtman said, Those blades are high rpm blades, but have very little surface for start-ups in lower winds, especially a cogging type motor. It looks like they exaggerate and mislead some on that website. (just my opinion)

Even though, it still looks like there is a very steep 'starting angle' on the inside root of the blades near the hub to help start-ups some. I would think even those 3 blades would start-up in a 20mph strong wind.

You may want to make a lower testing pole and see if it will take off after you manually spin it. Have you done such a test?

 Have you considered making simple PVC blades? They would start-up WAY easier and have the generator running much more often. (in lower winds)

 Just some thoughts.

« Last Edit: August 08, 2007, 08:33:48 PM by CmeBREW »

luckeydog

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Re: question on my wind turbine
« Reply #16 on: August 08, 2007, 10:12:19 PM »
I agree with what Tom W said to do.


bypass the diode with a jumper wire while connected to a battery and

see if the the motor will run. I am wondering if you have a shorted wire or

have a seized motor that wont turn. you might also check to see

if the arbor shaft is pushed to far down on the motor shaft causing it to

rub agents the motor housing.


Luckeydog

« Last Edit: August 08, 2007, 10:12:19 PM by luckeydog »

pepa

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Re: question on my wind turbine
« Reply #17 on: August 08, 2007, 10:26:44 PM »
open the motor and make sure the magnets are glued tight. i bought one off ebay and it acted like yours, it would turn by hand but but would not turn with blades. one of the magnets was loose and i put the magnet back with jb weld and it was good after that. be careful if you put power to it as a motor because the loose magnet will damage the windings if thats your problem. pepa
« Last Edit: August 08, 2007, 10:26:44 PM by pepa »

richhagen

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Re: question on my wind turbine
« Reply #18 on: August 08, 2007, 11:57:03 PM »
The non-level tower top may keep the blades from facing directly into the wind for lower wind speeds and certain wind directions.  Those look like high TSR blades, like 8 or 9 maybe.  They will need all of the help they can get with startup on that Ametek motor - depending upon the exact motor, and in low winds, I doubt it will start up very well.  Once spinning I would think they would do OK though perhaps a bit noisy because of the high TSR.  Rich
« Last Edit: August 08, 2007, 11:57:03 PM by richhagen »
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ZooT

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Re: question on my wind turbine
« Reply #19 on: August 09, 2007, 01:15:00 AM »
Quote: I would think even those 3 blades would start-up in a 20mph strong wind.


Yeah....in a sustained 20mph wind they'll do just fine......but not in 20mph gusts coming from everywhere which direction....in a wind like that the genny will just wag it's tail seeking but never finding.......and it can't spin up until it finds wind in long enough spurts to spin up

That's a problem I have here running a short tower (14 foot) poking up between 10 foot tall trailers.....


I've got a set of either those blades or something very similiar (from ebay)....and in clean steady wind they're great........I don't get clean steady wind but maybe once a month or so......and a wind genny that's just sitting there doing nothing is as boring as watching PV's.....


Just out of curiosity I wonder if one could use a wire as a momentary contact switch to bypass the blocking diode and use motoring to get the thing started....or whether it'd turn in the wrong direction......and if it did that could be remedied too...

« Last Edit: August 09, 2007, 01:15:00 AM by ZooT »

coldspot

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Re: question on my wind turbine
« Reply #20 on: August 09, 2007, 01:41:42 AM »
My

$0.02

Can you use a long stick, pole, ect..,..

to try ti flip the lower blade and see if it can turn?

 Did the hub slide back? (and be touching the motor front face and hanging up the blades?)

 Bent tower- When down, prop up the curved out side and walk/jump on or set some weight on it to help straighten it up.

:)
« Last Edit: August 09, 2007, 01:41:42 AM by coldspot »
$0.02

DanB

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Re: question on my wind turbine
« Reply #21 on: August 09, 2007, 04:48:06 AM »
I don't know about the AirX - the older Air403 does cog though.  Anyone who sells those sorts of blades as some kind of 'improvement' for the Air X or the 403 is wrong in my opinion-  they're just too large and they'll run more slowly.  I've seen those sorts of blades before and I don't care for them.  On the ametek you'd do much better to carve a  wooden blade that's a bit wider and starts more easily.  Those black plastic ('carbon composit'?)blades are really poor in my opinion.  They're larger than stock Air 403 blades, but much more flexible and much lower quality.


There is a lot of bad stuff and wrong ideas for sale these days on the web.  Lots of people will say whatever it takes to make a sale...


The tower not being vertical is also quite possibly a problem.

« Last Edit: August 09, 2007, 04:48:06 AM by DanB »
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Ungrounded Lightning Rod

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Re: question on my wind turbine
« Reply #22 on: August 09, 2007, 06:02:07 AM »
Anyone who sells those sorts of blades as some kind of 'improvement' for the Air X or the 403 is wrong in my opinion-  they're just too large and they'll run more slowly.


Looks like they compensated for that by using a very high TSR.  But that means virtually no starting torque from the bulk of the blade - it all comes from the fat secton near the hub, which has little leverage.  If you have even a small amount of static imbalance and friction it probably won't start.


The low torque continues until the blade is up to speed and the lift kicks in - which means if it's still in stall at cutin and the turbine has enough static imbalance and friction it will probably stop again even if you motor it up.


The high TSR also means a slight error in the angle of the blade along the blade's own axis has an enormous effect on the angle of attack, and thus the TSR.


= = = =


Segit:  Did you make your own hub?  Is it strong and flat, so the blades angle around the axis of their length is correct?  Did you check the static balance?  (Even a very small error from 120 degrees in the blade's plane will cause a static imbalance.)


With this low starting torque and a high TSR on thin blades making stall continue almost to dead-on-at-TSR spin, static imbalance is not just a vibration problem.  It also acts as cogging.


When you motor it up and then disconnect the diode bypass does it stop in some arbitrary position, or does it always stop in the same position?  If it's always in the same position, does it gradually slow down and stop, maybe moving a tad backward right at the end, or does it brake down and stop quickly, with no backup at the end and maybe with a jerkiness as it stops?


I'd pull it down and check a couple things:

 - Static balance will have to be dead-on with these blades.  Spin it by hand (in a location with no wind, like inside a garage) and see that it stops in several different positions.  (With cogging it will have several "favorites" evenly spaced around the circle.  But it should pick all of them with equal frequency.)

 - Test for friction by spinning it up to a high speed with your finger.

 - Test again by pushing hard on the prop (to model wind drag) and turning it through a full turn, to see if something is rubbing under load.


With that low starting torque this turbine will also have to track the wind very well.  A small error in tracking direction might make the section near the hub have a selective drag (due to the blade roots on top and bottom presenting different cross-sections to the side wind) that produces a torque which counters the airscrew torque and leaves you with nothing to start the blades, or even a braking effect that stops them.


To get it to track correctly you'll need to get that tower essentially vertical and get the center of gravity onto the yaw axis so any residual error in tower angle doesn't foul you.

« Last Edit: August 09, 2007, 06:02:07 AM by Ungrounded Lightning Rod »

Slingshot

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Re: question on my wind turbine
« Reply #23 on: August 09, 2007, 03:35:29 PM »
I don't think your problem is choice of blades.  Those look identical to the blades found on hydrogenappliances.com.  Your source is probably a reseller of these blades.


The hydrogenapplicances.com blades are my first choice for pairing with Ametek motors.  They work fine in that application.


I'm puzzled by the discussion of "diodes" in series with the battery.  You should only need one "diode".


Do you possibly have some strange arrangement of diodes that is shorting the generator output and preventing it from turning?  You need only one diode, in series between the Ametek motor and the battery.  I'd also look for a short somewhere in your wiring, as this would also prevent the generator from starting to turn.

« Last Edit: August 09, 2007, 03:35:29 PM by Slingshot »

TomW

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Duih
« Reply #24 on: August 09, 2007, 03:51:45 PM »
Sling;


Diode


In case he had multiples.


I guess you have to hit every single detail or someone finds fault.


Your welcome.


Phhttt.

« Last Edit: August 09, 2007, 03:51:45 PM by TomW »

sregit

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Re: question on my wind turbine
« Reply #25 on: August 09, 2007, 03:52:01 PM »
Actually I did not put the diode on it when I put it up I wanted to see if it would turn if so then I was going to put the diode on. And I made sure there was no exposed wires before I put it up.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2007, 03:52:01 PM by sregit »

DanB

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Re: question on my wind turbine
« Reply #26 on: August 09, 2007, 09:35:30 PM »
Hi Ungrounded...

"Looks like they compensated for that by using a very high TSR."

I don't think so..  they are wider, and longer than stock Air 403 blades.  The Air 403 needs to cutin at 400 rpm and it's rated at 1800 rpm.  Even though these blades are rediculously thin/narrow (and floppy I might add...) - they are bound to be much slower than the stock blades for the 403 which are even thinner and narrower and smaller in diameter (and less floppy).  Yes - these will get an air 403 spinning when it wouldn't otherwise be - but overall I expect they perform much worse.  The only real testing I saw to suggest that these were ever an improvement over the stock blades was open circuit voltage and short circuit current which is meaningless.  I've seen these blades before and I really dislike them (assuming they are the same thing I've seen on Hornet wind turbines).  Even more.. I dislike the way in which they are marketed.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2007, 09:35:30 PM by DanB »
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richhagen

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Re: question on my wind turbine
« Reply #27 on: August 09, 2007, 10:27:06 PM »
Here is a picture of a similar blade compared against an AIR 403 blade which was posted on the internet on an ebay ad here:


http://cgi.ebay.com/60-403-Wind-Turbine-Generator-Blades-Rotor-airx-AIR-X_W0QQitemZ290144365753QQihZ
019QQcategoryZ121837QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem


It may be useful for comparative purposes.  The seller qaz661 claims to have made over 1600000 wind turbine blades, and is, I think, the maker of the Hornet blades.




« Last Edit: August 09, 2007, 10:27:06 PM by richhagen »
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Slingshot

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Re: question on my wind turbine
« Reply #28 on: August 10, 2007, 08:28:35 AM »
If you did not have a diode in the circuit, and the battery, wiring, and motor are all good, then the blades should turn even in no wind because the battery would power the motor.  If this does not happen, you definitely have a problem.


I suppose another possibility is that your connections and direction of rotation were such that the battery-driven motor is opposing the wind.  Because several circuimstances would have to be "just so" in order for this to result in no motion, I'd say it's unlikely.

« Last Edit: August 10, 2007, 08:28:35 AM by Slingshot »

Slingshot

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Re: question on my wind turbine
« Reply #29 on: August 10, 2007, 08:31:38 AM »
I think he noted elsewhere that his "test" was with no diode in the circuit.  Since it did not motor from battery power, he has either a wiring or motor/mechanical problem that prevents the motor from turning.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2007, 08:31:38 AM by Slingshot »

ZooT

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Re: question on my wind turbine
« Reply #30 on: August 13, 2007, 10:42:34 PM »
Both of my ametek 30 volt motors have three wires........does this one also have three wires?


And if you connect the wrong wires it won't do anything even if you try to "motor it".

« Last Edit: August 13, 2007, 10:42:34 PM by ZooT »

fungus

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Re: question on my wind turbine
« Reply #31 on: August 14, 2007, 04:53:45 AM »
It's the same with my motor, black, white and brown. Turning in a clockwise direction, iirc positive is black and negative is white, the brown wire is simply a case ground.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2007, 04:53:45 AM by fungus »

wooferhound

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Re: question on my wind turbine
« Reply #32 on: August 14, 2007, 02:49:43 PM »
Is the Battery dead ?

that will cause it not to Spin or Motor.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2007, 02:49:43 PM by wooferhound »