Newcomer to off-grid

[aguillar]

Hi everyone!

Rather hoping there might be some advice on what route we should choose for a wind turbine..

Background; Bought a barn for conversion apx 1 mile from nearest electricity supply, on the edge of England and Wales. Currently living in a caravan next to the barn. Water pumped from surface spring with manual boat pump, home-made composting toilet working well, candles recently set aside for a 15W solar panel charging an old car battery and running 12v DC compact fluorescent bulbs.

We have planning permission to convert the barn and erect a wind turbine on an 11m tower.

We've been looking at various turbines [don't want to build one as I really should be dedicating my time to the building work and we don't have an alternative source of power if a home built one breaks] such as the Wren Merlin, Proven 2.5, Skystream 3.7, Inclin 3000 and many more. About the only option that looks like it would still be working in 20 years is the Proven, typically the most expensive. There is a local installer who has quoted for this and some Rolls 6CS21PS [x8] cells to go with a 3kW Outback. We don't plan to use much power overall [~900kWh/yr including an A++ fridge and freezer one day] but do have a reasonable site for wind [although the NOABLE database only predicts 4.5m/s average at 10m, we suspect we should get more than this]

We have foundations for a guyed tower - 4 guy point concrete foundations in heavy soil 3' deep and bell shaped with bases 3'6" long/ 2' wide, pointing at a centre foundation 2'6" deep and 2'10" a side, also bell shaped. Approx 1/2 ton of concrete went into each guy point hole and slightly less into the centre hole. It was possible to stand on the 6-12" soil overhang of each hole before filling without any collapse [yes it was fun digging in such soil by hand!] The site slopes so the anchor points vary in distance from the centre from 4 to 5.5m. If I've done my maths correctly all the guys will be at the same angle. Each guy anchor point has a 14"x1" gate hinge [acting as an eyebolt with the eye projecting and a 4" square steel washer secured to the embedded end] concreted in at an angle leaning away from the centre. The centre foundation has a steel plate, with upright flanges welded to it to accept the base of the mast, bolted on to more steel gate hinges also embedded in the concrete [this time with the eyes downward and with steel rods through the eyes to provide additional security]. A winch mount has been added to one of the guys anchor points in a similar fashion. We have an old 2 tonne winch which we need to fit. We have a tower of 3.5" outside diameter, 1/4" wall water pipe screwed into ~4" long sleeves at the joints but suspect it is insufficient, looking at a 5-6" diameter tower of 5mm wall thickness.

Questions:

Are we mad? - Yes

Any general advice? -

Are the foundations up to managing a turbine like the Proven [thrust at 157mph=5000N, equated to a pull on our foundations of 11000N [just over a tonne] for an 11m tower with guys at 5m out from base? -

Tower advice? -

Which turbine? -

Which battery set? -

Should we get a cheaper turbine and go hybrid with some pv panels? -

Do straight jackets come in one-size-fits-all or should I get measured in advance? -

Many thanks!

Daz Harris

[ghurd]

The maddest thing I see is the 15W PV as the only power source!

Even a tiny and simple windmill would help a lot, right now.  It wouldn't take much to make as much power with wind as that PV makes.

Maybe a box fan conversion on a 16' 2x4" tower?   Or a PM DC motor with some simple blades?

G-

[aguillar]

A 15W PV panel as sole power source is pretty mad, but it is wonderful after the candles!!

We do happen to have a cheap 36V 500W Navitron turbine that we had intended to put up, but since we have planning permission for a bigger one we thought we should start as we mean to carry on..

Daz

[mungewell]

Strange.

This article shows up the front page, but not under the 'everything' tab.

Simon.

[Gary D]

 Are you talking of a 2.5 Kw machine, or larger? There is a huge difference in tower requirements... Are you wanting any heating from it? If so, a 3.5 meter rotor won't help much at all... I do tend to wonder what wind speed it hits it's "rated" power... Not to knock Proven, the industry as a whole has seemed to have gone mad (or maybe me) on their claims...

[fungus]

mungewell;

That is because its in the 'newbies' section; they're not shown in the everything tab but if an editor wants to/thinks its 'good enough' then they can still put it on the front page.

[spinningmagnets]

Dear Daz, renewable energy (RE) is a serious disease, if you are truly infected, there isn't much hope I'm afraid.

I too, am a newbie. I would recommend getting or making a trailer, and then getting a small diesel engine, perhaps a 4-cylinder from an automobile, or something smaller if you can find it. Read the "Zubbly" posts, and seriously consider a large electric motor conversion (changing a motor to an alternator) that is spun by the aforementioned diesel on the trailer. This will be your back-up, and will ensure you will at least be able to keep your batteries charged when the wind (such a cruel mistress, so inconsistent and variable!) is low.

You can install a second tank with a fuel heat exchanger (the coolant is 190F degrees to thin the WVO)) so you can start the engine with diesel/bio-diesel, and once it is warmed, you can switch over to burning free "Waste Vegetable Oil" from restaurants. Your generator will smell like fish and chips (fish sticks and fries), but such is the price of free/non-polluting fuel.

As you add more wind/hydro/solar you will use the "fish and chips fuel" less.

Check out "www.builditsolar.com" you won't regret it.

[wpowokal]

Daz,

     The side anchors and the tower base must have a line of sight that is a straight line, does not need to be level just a straight line. This is to ensure your guy wires don't get too loose or tight when riasing/lowering.

You may already have done that but I did not gleem it from your post, and down the bottom when you are writing your post there is a drop down menu between the words preview & post, set that to Auto Format and your punctuation will remain when posted.

Just makes it a $#|+ load easier to read.

allan down under

[aguillar]

Thanks for comments everybody!

 Re:  Gary D - Are you talking of a 2.5 Kw machine, or larger? There is a huge difference in tower requirements... Are you wanting any heating from it? If so, a 3.5 meter rotor won't help much at all... I do tend to wonder what wind speed it hits it's "rated" power... Not to knock Proven, the industry as a whole has seemed to have gone mad (or maybe me) on their claims...

 2.5 is probably the max, but like you say there is a big difference in one claimed 2.5kW machine and the next... We plan to make use of any spare power once the battery set is charged on a windy day with AC dump loads outputting to small space or water heaters. The barn will be very highly insulated so we hope not to require too much extra heat. The Proven power graphs show less power than many of the other alternatives, but it does have a track record for reliability. We don't expect to get masses of power from one but do hope that it isn't going to break!

 Got www.reenergy.co.uk up at the third attempt, is your web host entirely reliable Angus?

 Re: spinningmagnets - backup genny and builditsolar.com

 Reading builditsolar.com now!

We plan to make a solar water heater once the barn is complete. Open minded as yet as to use of flat plat vs evacuated tube, it partially depends on money left at the end!

Will keep thinking about pv..

We have a 1970 single cylinder Lister handle start and a 1980 two cylinder Lister 12v start for emergency use and one day conversion to SVO or WVO. Got two so that we could hopefully keep one fit to operate at any time. Have fixed alternator breakdowns on both so far.. We have run one or the other for 2 hours about every 6 weeks over the last 18 months. They are presently next to the caravan so it isn't just for eco reasons we don't run them much - they are very noisy! Once the barn is finished then I will build a generator hut/ wood store for them to live in.

 Re: allan down under - side anchors and formatting

 The guy anchors are in place already. Everything is line of sight but I think I may have to adjust guy tension during raising and lowering. Will be taking Dan's advice on wiring the turn bolt hooks in place too!

Sorry it is so hard to read, my fault not the forum [it was set to auto format]. I bunched the text up to make it smaller on the page, downside harder to read..

Daz

[ghurd]

Anything with a switch is better than candles!

Winter is on its way, and the output of the 15W PV will drop off drastically. Right when you want more hours of CFL lighting.

I meant if you are happy with 15W of solar right now, then something like this would keep you happy through the winter.  It's not a great windmill, but in winter in this area, it will make more power than a 15W PV.

(2 years of planning... 2 hours of construction)

http://www.otherpower.com/images/scimages/2050/ugly20.jpg

I suppose it depends on how soon a bigger windmill will be installed.

G-

[fungus]

aguillar-

Its usually pretty reliable; depends what error messages it was giving?

On topic..

A proven machine would be very reliable and make some good power; but as you said they are very expensive. One of the larger navitron machines could be ok? Theres a lot of choice out there if you look; just have to weigh up cost against quality.

[aguillar]

Angus

Silly me didn't note the error message on trying to access the site, sorry. It is fine now. If I get it in future I will let you know.

Do you know anyone with a Navitron 2kW who is happy? The Navitron forum is full of comments about burn outs and breakages!

[TomW]

aguillar;

The Navitron forum is full of comments about burn outs and breakages!

I don't think that will be significant, especially if it is the manufacturers forum. I have no knowledge of the brand, however, most folks don't go to a manufacturers  forum to report success. I think the vast majority go there to seek help with problems. That skews the statistical importance of a lot of comments about issues. Maybe. Maybe not.

Just a thought.

Cheers.

TomW

[Ungrounded Lightning Rod]

The guy anchors are in place already. Everything is line of sight but I think I may have to adjust guy tension during raising and lowering.

It's OK to have the mast base pivot (very) slightly above the line-of-sight between the side guy anchors, so that the guys are a bit loose when the mast is down and tighten to the desired tension when it's up.  PROVIDED, of course, that you make them adequately loose when you set it up before the first raising - and that your base pivot can accept a little side-to-side motion of the mast.  (If the side guys are too tight at the start they will become MUCH too tight and may fail, with disastrous results, during raising.)  Fortunately you can make them significantly looser than necessary on the first raising and adjust them once the tower is up.  All the extra slop means is that the mast can wave around a little more on the way up.

Erring the other way means that, as the mast comes down, the guys overtighten.  If the misalignment is great enough and it's coming down due to a failure of the front or back guys, that might turn the disaster of a falling tower into the far worse disaster of a falling tower with snapping-stretched-spring guy wires whipping around and/or cutting through whatever is nearby.

[aguillar]

Thanks Lightning.

We have one side anchor slightly above [110mm] the base pivot and one a fair distance below [588mm]. Ulp. Any suggestions?

[aguillar]

Bump..?

[ghurd]

No bumps.  All chronological.

An active bunch here.  Nothing new usually means everything they could think of has been said.

[aguillar]

Cheers!

[aguillar]

We decided to bit the bullet and spend some money - have ordered a Proven 2.5 on an 11m monopole Proven mast. Rolls batteries, Outback inverter. ££ ouch

Proven don't let you put their turbine head on towers other than their own so we have had to start afresh. The new foundations start this week.

Interestingly I believe Target fixings have signed up with Proven to do piling foundations for the Proven towers. In the case of the 11m tower this would involve 4 very long helical screws in the ground below the base plate instead of lots of concrete..

[aguillar]

Proven 2.5 on 11m tower up and running.

Went from 12v DC bulb off a car battery charged from a 15W solar panel to LOTS of power - what a difference.

The 240V dump loads running into indoor heaters are particularly nice on the windy days we have had lately!