Author Topic: Need professional help.......on stator that is (Read 6188 times)

GLC · « **on:** November 12, 2009, 11:47:03 AM »

I just got done winding the coils for my first stator. The demensions on it are 13" diameter and 0.75" thick. I wound the coil's, 9 of them, using AWG #15 at 100 turns. What I would like to know is if I can expect any problems with this setup? Also the stator coil configuration of roughly a 9.75" diameter and I would like to know if I should use a 9" rotor or a 10" rotor and at what spacing should I have the rotors/neomags from the stator? I'm posting a link to the stator in the mold almost ready to cast. Any help would greatly be appreciated.

I hate to come here asking these questions but I don't know anyone personally that does this type of thing. So I really appreciate it! Feel free to email me as well at glclough@ameritech.net

Put the photos inline. TW

GLC · « **Reply #1 on:** November 12, 2009, 01:02:05 PM »

I should also ask about the neomags. I was also wondering if I should use the 22.5 swept arc 0.25" thick mags or the swept arc 22.5 0.50" mags?

windy · « **Reply #2 on:** November 12, 2009, 08:16:30 PM »

I am no pro at building stators, but my stator for the 17 foot diameter blade generator that I am building is only 5/8" thick, so I am thinking that the coils may be a little to thick for your setup. Just a thought!

windy

tecker · « **Reply #3 on:** November 12, 2009, 11:37:25 PM »

It looks like the insulation of the wire is 155 degree and the masking tape covers area that needs to be coated with resin .That would be my only concern . Otherwise you have a neat stator going on there you could use drywall gauze instead of masking tape with a touch of superglue to get resin to penetrate .

Flux · « **Reply #4 on:** November 13, 2009, 12:58:55 AM »

It's not possible to answer your questions, you are going at the job backwards. The first starting point is the wind rotor ( prop , blades call it what you want).

Once you have established how much power you have at given speeds then you can start thinking about the alternator.

You then need to choose magnets to be capable of producing the power you want and finally you choose the stator winding to get your cut in speed and general characteristics.

You have produced a fine stator and no doubt you could choose a range of magnets to suit it as long as it is 12 pole and the magnet centres are on the centres of the coils but you would then have to guess a cut in speed, choose the magnets to get it and choose a prop size to handle it. A very strange way of going about it and one not likely to get you there easily.

From what I can see you are looking at a fairly big machine, I have no idea what you are aiming for but something 14ft or bigger will be needed to use those coils effectively.

Flux

Flux · « **Reply #5 on:** November 13, 2009, 06:34:48 AM »

On reading this again I find that the 13" you refer to seems to be the stator outside dimensions. The diameter at the centre of the coils is going to be a lot smaller.

I was probably wrong about the prop size it will handle so you may be running faster than I originally thought. This seems a thick stator so you will need thick magnets or you may have to run with a low flux density.

You have a lot of turns so you may be looking at 48v.

Unless you can give a lot more details it is not really possible to help much.

Flux

Beaufort · « **Reply #6 on:** November 13, 2009, 06:39:00 AM »

Great observations, tecker. The tape across the swept leg of coils has always bothered me after I saw this in the H.P. 2005 book. And the pictures here of stator failures seem to be related to the coil "escaping" through this part of the mold (of course, those stators were likely overdriven as has been pointed out before). So if there is any kind of tape across those legs that doesn't penetrate with resin, there are air gaps on the backside. Not good for thermal and mechanical reasons.

I've researched industrial coilmaking and have settled on a proper motor varnish impregnated technique, which requires a heating profile if you go by the book. For homebuilders, the vaccuum bag technique looks better than just casting naked coils but I'd question the penetration without heat (the varnish needs heat to thin out properly, thus flowing into the heated windings). This is an extra step, but I don't consider it optional for long-lasting machines under all conditions. And the covering layer of fabric has always bothered me as well...too little meat between coils and mags, given the operating conditions at that point (temp. and mechanical). I like other solutions for this area, but the standard construction everyone uses seems to be working if the amps are kept under control.

GLC · « **Reply #7 on:** November 13, 2009, 06:55:52 AM »

Thanks for your input Flux. What I'm going for is a vertical turbine. Roughlt 4ft in height. I live on a river that always seems to have a nice breeze. I also want to go vertical due to neighbors. My original intention was an idea I got at windgenkits.com. Thewy have a nice looking veryical that looks right for where I live.

What I've done is wound some new coils at 1/2 inch in height with 70 turns. Like the ones in the pic above but smaller. I was thinking of using a 9" rotor with 24 neomags (swept arc) 1/4 inch thick. The stator I'll cast in a 1/2 inch mold. I'm not sure what info to give you since I'm new to all this and learning on the fly. Backwards maybe but learning. My overall goal is a 4ft vertical turbine,9" rotor, 24 1/4 inch neomags using coils either at 70 turns or 100 turns (I have both now)As far as the tape goes, could it be a cloth medical tape for the stator coils?

GLC · « **Reply #8 on:** November 13, 2009, 06:59:18 AM »

Your right! The outside demension is 13 inchs. The stator coils themselves are only 9.75" inchs in diameter.

GLC · « **Reply #9 on:** November 13, 2009, 07:30:20 AM »

Thanks for the input & compliment tecker. I was thinking of using a fiberglass tape but didn't bother to get any. I also thought about using a cloth medical tape that would be absorbant. Although I don't know if it will absorb fiberglass resin. I also thought about stringing the coils together with a strand of regular kite type string once the coils are in the stator mold and ready to pour. Another thing I thought about using was small zip ties. Those are what I used to get the coils off the winder once they were wound and to keep them tight coming off the winder.

As I said in another post, I'm doing this on the fly and learning as I go along. I was looking for an interesting project and looked at solar until I seen wind power! Once I saw wnd was a 24hr a day thing, I went for it. I'm not sure what you mean about the superglue? In the resin itself or on the coils alone?

Flux · « **Reply #10 on:** November 13, 2009, 08:55:22 AM »

If it's vertical axis then it will be very slow and you may struggle to get 12v.

I can help you even less in this case as we really have no turbine figures to start from.

I suggest you use your winding and choose the strongest magnets that will fit that you can afford and do a test run.

Until you get some base figures there is no point in making various stators with different thickness and numbers of turns. Any one winding is as good a starting point as any other in this case.

Flux

GLC · « **Reply #11 on:** November 13, 2009, 12:04:36 PM »

The best I can come up with now are from the site where I copied my second stator turn for turn. Even my winder is based on their's. My second set of coils/stator is 0.50" inch thick with 70 turns of #15 awg. The same as the pic above just thinner with less turns. I'll be using 9" inch rotors with 24 N42 swept arc neomags. A 12 pole 3 phase. Which is what the figures below are based on.

http://www.riverviewflorist.net/pics/powercurve.jpg

http://www.riverviewflorist.net/pics/openvolts.jpg

wiboater · « **Reply #12 on:** November 14, 2009, 05:07:32 AM »

Are you able to get the mold down tight with that many turns on a 1/2 inch mold? I'm running a doubled up Lenz 2 (2 lenz turbines stacked) counter rotating. I am using a stator with 60 turns of 2 strands of #18 wire. I was only able to get the stator squeezed down to 5/8 inch thick. There are some video's on You Tube under wiboater if you want to look at the turbine and some of the output from it.I would stick with the 70 turns if it fits. 60 is a little high for cut in speed with the #18 wire.

wiboater · « **Reply #13 on:** November 14, 2009, 05:14:07 AM »

If there is enough current in the river flowing past your property you might want to consider putting in a small water wheel for generating power. The current is constant and even a little power would at least be steady.

GLC · « **Reply #14 on:** November 14, 2009, 07:41:07 AM »

I thought about that. The river itself is very fast, except where I'm at. Unfortunately I'm at where the river widens to it's widest point, sort of like a bowl where it creates a back flow and the water doesn't move so well. If I was anywhere else on the river....

wiboater · « **Reply #15 on:** November 14, 2009, 09:33:09 AM »

I have the same situation on the water where I live,so I sympathize with you.

wooferhound · « **Reply #16 on:** November 14, 2009, 10:37:10 AM »

Another way to use the River is for Cooling. If the water is cool enough, you could pump it into the house through a radiator and blow air through it for cheap air conditioning.

Dave B · « **Reply #17 on:** November 14, 2009, 10:45:33 AM »

Cast the stator with quality epoxy or the stuff the Dan's use (no bondo) then don't push it beyond it's limitations (search for these figures regards to wire size etc. and other's machines). So many ways to do things, stick with what works. There are a lot of opinions out there and some may be fine but unless you want to experiment don't be distracted from what works, experience speaks volumes. Ask those who have built many, many machines. Dave B.

wiboater · « **Reply #18 on:** November 14, 2009, 12:47:24 PM »

You can use it for GeoThermal heat too. If the water is deep enough,But that's a whole different topic.

GLC · « **Reply #19 on:** November 15, 2009, 08:13:46 AM »

It's interesting that you mentioned Bondo. I've intentionally stayed away from bondo and anything that you have to add x-amount of drops of hardener to a cup of resin or anything that sets in 10-15 mins. I bought a resin that has a 1:1 to ratio with a longer set time. Something I can have a little time to work with in order to get whatever bubbles might be in it out.

electrondady1 · « **Reply #20 on:** November 15, 2009, 08:15:46 AM »

there is something strange going on here .

i checked out your reference to your design source

what a surprise.it's a lenz2 design

if you need information on the design why not go to the source . the man who designed and built it ed lenz

a long time member of this forum

search windstuffnow and find his site.

the source you referenced windgenkits .com

is a poster (rfrink)on another forum

http://www.vawts.net/index.spark

he is infact a beginer with a metal fabrication business

and asks questions of other members (including ed lenz)

so now he is building kits of ed's design and not mentioning him?

is he under licence to do this?

GLC · « **Reply #21 on:** November 15, 2009, 08:23:23 AM »

The river in most places is no more than 30' to 50' across and has a current of at least 15 to 20mph depending on the width. Where I'm at is about 1100' making it more like a lake. I happen to be right in the middle at the bottom of the bowl (par for the course with me) and everything seems to come to a stop and settle in my backyard. I'm always out there removing logs from under the dock. Once when the river flooded everything that floated down ended up in my backyard. My neighbors were having a bar-b-que while I was removing a log jam! If I were anywhere else on the river I could have one hell of a water wheel turning.

TheCasualTraveler · « **Reply #22 on:** November 16, 2009, 07:18:42 PM »

Just my 2 cents GLC,

You ask whether to use 1/4" or 1/2" neos. With that thick stator you should use 1/2" minimum for dual rotor. Have you priced 1/2" wedge neos? They are not cheap. Then when your done that alternator on a VAWT is going to be disappointing if it reaches cut in at all. My advice, save your money and salvage your wire.. It looks like you do very nice work. If size is a problem with the neighbors try a nice little 4 footer HAWT with no furling such as Hugh and others have built. I would think it would beat a Vawt the size you propose any day and be easier and cheaper.

GLC · « **Reply #23 on:** November 17, 2009, 10:59:07 AM »

Thanks for the input casualtravler/Andy

I did check on 1/2" neomags. $8.00 + a pop! I ordered 1/4" neomags. What I've done is made a different set of coils out of the spool I have and went on and cut a 1/2" mold center and made a 1/2" stator instead. The set of 3/4" coils I'll unwrap and reuse in another stator since I have enough fiberglass resin left to do another one.

When/if/maybe/I Hope the housing market comes back? I plan on moving somewhere more open without all the neighbors and closer to work. Living on the river is nice but I'd rather have land. (I can't build anything on the water) With more land I can pretty much build what I want within reason. A turbine is within that reason if you ask me!:)

The great thing about the homemade stators is they can be used as a VAWT or HAWT. Chances are I might try both designs. To cut my own blades would be a pain since I don't have all the right equipment needed for a DIY set of blades; as for the wings though, I aready made the frames out of spare 2x4's and plywood I had in my garage already. I used similar design to that of Lenz. the The tools to make wings I had , a jigsaw, table saw, wood glue. But then again I watched a guy make blades with a chainsaw and that I have!

I've read quite a bit about HAWT V VAWT. Infact I googled HAWT Vs VAWT and there are arguements going both ways on subject. I guess what made me realize that blades are probably better is that G.E. uses blades on their turbines and I assume that's for a reason. I figure G.E. probably through 10 million into research before making their final decision to go with blades. Maybe I'll tinker with a turbine stand and blade/wing set up that can be quick changed into a VAWT or HAWT. Maybe put the stator on a tilting pedastool that can be laid on it's back for a VAWT or something I can lay it on its side and change from the wing shaft to a blade shaft for a HAWT.

I appreciate all the constructive critisim and pointers everyone has put in. When I get it done, I'll post what it looks like and what my results are, although I'm sure most of you know what the results might be already seeing that you are a bunch of DIY'ers.

wiboater · « **Reply #24 on:** November 18, 2009, 03:29:51 PM »

How much wind do you have, the Lenz turbines I have don't do much at all under a 12 to 15 MPH wind. If your going to build one scale it up a bit. at least taller. They are easy to build if you go to Ed Lenz's site and follow his plans. If at all possible go with a HAWT. Where I live the town has ordinances against wind turbines unless you have an acre lot. That's why I'm using the Lenz turbine. They don't cost much to build if you use the plywood and aluminum design.

wiboater · « **Reply #25 on:** November 20, 2009, 04:54:03 AM »

Gave the wrong You Tube name should be wiboater4.

GLC · « **Reply #26 on:** November 23, 2009, 08:09:45 AM »

Thanks. The other name you gave me turned up a goose egg.

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Author Topic: Need professional help.......on stator that is (Read 6188 times)