Author Topic: wound rotor induction motor  (Read 2061 times)

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TexasRed

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wound rotor induction motor
« on: February 08, 2007, 05:17:54 PM »
It is a small wound rotor motor. I was just playing with it, trying to learn. I pulled the 4 coils and lamenants out of the case. Placed 8 cheap radio shack ceramic magnets in the case, making 4 poles, 2n, 2s, 2n, 2s. I put the wound rotor back in, I guess it is really my stator now, sautered some lead off of 2 of 4 brushes, and put covers back on. I connected the shaft to my drill press, and ran it a 650rpm, my lowest setting. I got .5ACV!!!! I was thrilled. You laugh, but this baby is learning to crawl. I was wondering the next natural step, and that is how to get more power, make it more efficient. My stator core just barley rubs on 2 of my magnet poles. I'm thinking thinner, stronger mags to give me more space and more power = more power. Mainly thinking gap right now. wonder if I can grind some, on the metal coil spacers on the stator core. Winding on the core seems to be some concyndrical star pattern. w/ 4 carbon like brushes on the end of the core. Another question...

The speed of the AC motor is determined primarily by the frequency of the AC supply and the number of poles in the stator winding, according to the relation:


Ns = 120F / p

where


Ns = Synchronous speed, in revolutions per minute

F = AC power frequency

p = Number of poles per phase winding


If I know Ns, 650rpm on my drill press, can I solve for "F" to ascertain a potiential power output?


In my case...

Ns = 120F / p

(650)= 120F/4


I'm going to have to sit down and try to remember my algebra.

The motor has no marking on it what so ever. I's about 8"long and 4"x4" semi square.

Had a 11 tooth cog on the shaft that looks like it engaged with centrifical force like in a vehical starter. I'll look on the net for a look alike to maybe identify it.


Anyone with a helping braincell or thought for a newbie?

« Last Edit: February 08, 2007, 05:17:54 PM by (unknown) »

RP

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Re: wound rotor induction motor
« Reply #1 on: February 08, 2007, 03:55:23 PM »
I got a little lost in your terminology.  The rotor (or armature) is the the part that turns and the stator is the part that holds still.  Did you mean the motor had a wound stator which would mean the casing had wound coils in it?


Also, of the four brushes, how did you select which brushes to connect wire leads to?


Can you give us any info on the motor (does it have a nameplate with voltage or other specs)?

« Last Edit: February 08, 2007, 03:55:23 PM by RP »

alancorey

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Re: wound rotor induction motor
« Reply #2 on: February 08, 2007, 03:59:45 PM »
Are you sure it's not a starter motor?  Have you got any pictures?  Is either of the winding sets wound with a square or rectangular copper bar instead of round wire?


Normally the object is to rotate the magnets since they don't need brushes to connect them to something stationary.  The coils which do need to connect can stay in the outer part (or get replaced if there's a need to rewind).


It could be a "universal" motor if it's not a starter motor, but I don't think induction motors ever have brushes.  In either case, the windings connected through the brushes were probably the field windings, not the main place where power went.  So the wire's likely to be smaller and the brushes not good for a lot of current.  The windings you want to use are probably the ones you took out.  The friction from the brushes will also waste a lot of your power if you're going to put a small windmill blade on it.


Ceramic magnets are, well, no one uses them much anymore.  Neodymium makes things possible that just plain weren't before because they're so much stronger.  Motors and generators used to have magnetic fields generated by electromagnets because ceramic magnets didn't make a strong enough field.  If you're going to get into this, you're likely to acquire a bunch of neos before you get very far.  If you can figure out what size will fit and buy them that's one thing, but most times I've been wrong so I've now got an assortment of magnets that didn't fit whatever I originally bought them for.  That's not such a bad thing.  Dead computer hard drives are a good source of a few small neos each, which might get you started.


Before you plan on filling up the available space with neos though, read a little on this board about cogging.  There's a fine line sometimes between not enough magnet and too much.  That's also something you may have to learn the hard way.


  Alan

« Last Edit: February 08, 2007, 03:59:45 PM by alancorey »

TexasRed

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Re: wound rotor induction motor
« Reply #3 on: February 09, 2007, 07:22:54 AM »
The rotor or armature has winding of wire on it. The wire appears to be 14awg. Wire spirals down the shaft then back up. Their are 12 terminations into the metal cylinder that the brushes rotate around. very tightly wound. I didn't know what it is, but for a definition of it under wound rotor in wikapedia. The original stator was 4 coils on the inside of the case. Approx. 14 awg. 16windings. 2.5inch legs, 1 inch width. I was figuring on just running the whole process in reverse and see what happens. Of the four brushes I just used the same factory set up. brushes 1 and 3 were power leads, brushes 2 and 4 terminated on ground post inside case. Their are no markings what so ever on the motor. No made in stamp, serial#, or ratings of anykind.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2007, 07:22:54 AM by TexasRed »

TexasRed

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Re: wound rotor induction motor
« Reply #4 on: February 09, 2007, 07:32:23 AM »
I believe you are right, I think they are the field windings. But I'm learning and experimenting and figured if power can travel in, then it can travel out. Yes I'm going to aquire some neos, but I figure making mistakes, I.E..Learning, does not have to be expensive. At the county where I work, they are selling off surplus computer hardware. I asked the IT man about the harddrives and he stated that all data storage had to be incenerated for security reasons. I got permission to scavenge hard drive magnets. He has the harddrives already pulled and stored. I asked him how many he had to incenerate and he replied about 300. whoohoooo. That's alot. I've never pulled a hard drive apart. Is there any tricks? Back to this motor I have, I read that wound rotor motors were designed for variable speed, but with modern circuitry, this type of motor has gone the way of the dinosaur. Gives me an idea that I'm working with something older than me.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2007, 07:32:23 AM by TexasRed »

ghurd

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Re: wound rotor induction motor
« Reply #5 on: February 09, 2007, 08:03:04 AM »
SCSI HDs are more likely to have nice big magnets.

You will want a few sets of Torx bits, maybe T-6 to T-10.  When they strip, they can be ground down a bit and re-used. I use a bench top belt sander.  A cordless drill and bit holder helps.

Save the AL, SS, and CU voice coils if they let you. I think the plattens are AL too. It adds up to some decent money, fast.  Beats the garbage truck taking them.


Its still a PITA.

G-

« Last Edit: February 09, 2007, 08:03:04 AM by ghurd »
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alancorey

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Re: wound rotor induction motor
« Reply #6 on: February 09, 2007, 12:29:11 PM »
Yes, pulling the magnets is a PITA.  This sounds like a sort of ideal situation though, being given 300 drives to do at once.  If you can bring them home and sit in front of the TV while you're doing them it wouldn't be bad.  It's a little like shelling peas: kinda boring and the results don't add up very fast.


I haven't done enough of them to wear out a Torx bit, I'm more likely to misplace the Torx set and buy another one.  I've got about 30 hard drive magnet halves that I've pulled, and I may not do anymore for a while.  Yes, magnet halves.  One of the odd things about these magnets is that most of them are made like 2 magnets in one piece of material.  One end is usually magnetized North and the other end may also be magnetized North.  Flip it over and you'll find the South poles.  Sometimes you'll find a North and a South on the same side, but I haven't kept track of how often that happens.  If you use some of the magnetic visualization film that Otherpower sells, or sprinkle some  iron filings on one, you'll find that there's a distinct line in the middle of the magnet where there's no flux, where the two halves meet.  That's where you need to cut or break it.  Some people use an angle grinder with a thin cutoff wheel to cut through a stack of them, I just clamp one at a time in a vise with that middle point in line with the top of the vise jaw and give it a whack with a piece of wood.  About 90% of the time that works well.


Opening the drives, you may find tape around the edges that you have to peel off or cut.  There will be obvious screws on the top that you need to take out.  Usually there are some hidden under labels, those you can find by running your fingernail around and looking for places where the label isn't supported by metal.  Dig into them with a knife or the Torx wrench to get to the screw.  Anything that says removing it will void the warranty is probably worth removing.  The circuit board on the bottom can usually be ignored.


Here's a picture of a drive with the cover off, courtesy of the Western Digital website: http://www.otherpower.com/images/scimages/6871/hd_pic.jpg  I drew a yellow line around where the magnets are.  They sit inside two pieces of steel so you won't see them at first.  Usually there are (at least) screws in each end of the top steel piece holding it down.  Sometimes once you take those screws out it will feel like there's something else holding it, but it's really just the magnets.  See if you can pry it up with a screwdriver.  If you can but it goes right back into place it's probably just the magnets.  Get a better grip and pry it off.  On the underside of that is the top magnet.  Some hard drives (notably Maxtor) are so cheap they only have one magnet, most have an upper and lower, some have 2 upper and 2 lower.  On the ones with 2 upper and 2 lower you don't have to break the magnets once you get them out.  


Underneath the top plate and magnet you'll find the voice coil that moved the heads.  You need to get that out of the way somehow.  Sometimes you can pivot it out of the way, sometimes you can take off the top screw on the bearing and slide the top of it sideways, in extreme cases with multiple platter drives I've had to take the platter stack apart.  Just start with the screws at the top of the stack, lift off the top spacer(s), work the top platter clear of the heads, and keep going.  Underneath the voice coil is the bottom magnet, on its own steel plate.


Getting the magnets off the backing plates is another task entirely and I usually set them aside to do later.  There are at least 2 ways to get them off (they're glued).  One is to clamp the steel plate in a vise in such a way that you can grab the end and bend it away from the magnet.  The idea is to bend the steel and the magnet will stay straight.  Sometimes.  Sometimes the steel plate is really thick (some IBM drives) and won't bend easily.  On those I use an old wood chisel, with the flat side of the blade against the steel plate, and push or maybe tap it a little to start it going under the magnet.  I've broken magnets both ways.  Pulling off bits of the plating is also common.


Once you've got a collection of magnet halves, you'll find you can stack them up and they work the same as a thicker magnet.  You won't be able to put them side by side easily though because they'll repel each other.  Somewhere on this board there's a post by a guy who built a full-size axial flux windmill with them, but I haven't seen it in a while.  Neos seem expensive to buy, but once you've spent a few hours pulling hard drive magnets they begin to look cheaper.  But the by-products can also be interesting: the disks are probably aluminum, the head pivot bearings look nicely made, people make anemometers with the motors, and the cases make good small heat sinks.  Anyone should take at least a few apart.


  Alan

« Last Edit: February 09, 2007, 12:29:11 PM by alancorey »

TexasRed

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Re: wound rotor induction motor
« Reply #7 on: February 09, 2007, 01:00:49 PM »
Wow, lots of good info. Thanks alot. Does anyone know how much stronger the HD mags are compared to ceramic? I mean are they like a N35, N40 or N42?
« Last Edit: February 09, 2007, 01:00:49 PM by TexasRed »

ghurd

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Re: wound rotor induction motor
« Reply #8 on: February 09, 2007, 01:38:02 PM »
Nice write up!

With that many I'd separate them by model, then do them assembly style.  First all the exposed bigger T-9s in all the drives, then all the T-8s, etc.  Saves changing bits, forgetting that stray screw, etc.


The bearings in the read/write head are kind of cool.  Most HDs have a tiny magnet near the voice coil, useless but also cool.


I take out ALL the screws and nuts.  (The scrap yard pays 4~5X more if there is no steel or plastic in the AL, and a couple times I actually made a profit selling the leftovers, even after buying and shipping guaranteed working HDs)


Dastardlydan made a HD windmill.  The info is `scattered'.

http://www.fieldlines.com/user/dastardlydan/stories


MickS did one too.

http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2006/9/27/112728/576


I did some conversions with HD neos.  A quick but fat photo.

http://www.otherpower.com/images/scimages/2050/3phHD.jpg

G-

« Last Edit: February 09, 2007, 01:38:02 PM by ghurd »
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TexasRed

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Re: wound rotor induction motor
« Reply #9 on: February 12, 2007, 07:52:36 AM »
I'm not sure what all I'll be able to keep off of the HD. The HD's are supposed to be incenerated because of sensitive data. County government rules. but I got the IT guys to agree to let me get the mags. I'm probably going to have to do them in the basement of the courthouse, one night. They can't leave the building. Good thing is, I don't have to be delicate. Their scrap anyways.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2007, 07:52:36 AM by TexasRed »

TomW

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Re: wound rotor induction motor
« Reply #10 on: February 12, 2007, 09:34:02 AM »
Red;


Not an expert but have stripped a few of these myself.


First, since they are scrap and you only want magnets, use a drill to drill off the screw heads. Much faster and easier than unscrewing them by hand.


Once you strip a couple you will get a feel for getting the magnets out. There are 2 one above and one below that coil hooked to the read / write arm. The drill will come in handy on those screws holding the magnets in place.


Just how I started doing it after a couple taken apart manually.


Good Luck.


Cheers.


TomW

« Last Edit: February 12, 2007, 09:34:02 AM by TomW »