Gotta be a way around this..

[MattR]

Hi Everybody,

I have been browsing the site for a bit over a month now searching for ideas on how to save money on that darn electric bill we all hate if we are on the grid. I am already using a 75W solar panel with a small charge controller and a small battery bank. Anyways I would like to get started into wind power as well. However, those darn county politicians seem to have all bases covered in my county to stop me from utilizing the wind. If you want to see the long winded ordinance, just google for "Shawano County WI wind ordinance" and you will see what I mean. They do not say I cannot have a wind generator, as long as it is engineer approved, same with the tower. They also want $25,000 placed in a bank account for them to use at their discretion to hire people to check wind generator engineering, tower engineering, sound testing when first installed and a year later. My understanding according to the ordinance is only the rich can save money buy using the wind, and only if they "OK" it. From what I understand, I even have to get a permit to build one. How ridiculous can our government get? Wait, I do not want to know..lol.

My idea to get into wind power is even though I know that it is ideal to place the generator 30 feet above trees and such, to make something lower to the ground and design it in a way that they may not even know what it is. I was thinking of making a very low speed generator that would be installed into a wooden windmill that we all usually see as an outdoor decoration type of thing. I understand that this is not best way to get the most out of a generator, yet it might be my way around that stupid ordinance. Even some wind generated electricity is better than nothing. I was checking out the designs that use a treadmill motor and would like to go that route unless somebody has a better idea. I have to mention that I do not know how to wind my own coils and stuff, I plan on learning in the near future. I am handy with woodworking and can make the wooden windmill housing. I also plan on adding a rudder on it so it adjusts to wind direction and then I do not have to keep turning it whenever the wind changes. Not sure how to make this design furl though without displaying metal on the backside of it. A manual braking system would work for when it gets too windy.

So do all of you think I am crazy yet? I just hate when people tell me what I can and cannot do with my land especially when it comes to saving electricity by making my own power, however small amount it may be.

Any advice on this would be helpful. And a side note, a conditional use permit or a land use permit is probably out of the question since some of the town board members and myself do not see eye to eye on past issues. The best I can describe it, is they are a bit on the snobby side. Even my solar panel was an issue because they could see it when driving by my place. I never forced them to look in the first place..lol.

Thanks in advance,

Matt R.

[luckeydog]

I know how you feel about city ordinances.

 where I live I am not suppose to have A wind generator

but I am a bit of a rebel so I rather ask for forgiveness

than to ask for permission. I have Great neighbors.

so even if they don't like my Wind Genny they are not likely to

report me. I guess maybe the best thing to do is invite them

over for a barbeque and set up a small wind generator. maybe

something like a 4 ft diameter turbine on a 10 foot pole

just to get them use to the idea. you might be surprised by

the positive response you get.

usually the city wont come after you unless there is a complaint from

a neighbor.

but I must tell you trying to hide a wind turbine is kinda like

putting you solar panels in the closet. They are just not that effective

in turbulent wind. Maybe a better choice would be to go with a VAWT

 (vertical axises wind turbine)

turbulent wind dose not affect them as much and you can disguise them to look

like modern art...lol

Just some things to consider.

Luckeydog

.

[MattR]

Hi Luckeydog,

Thanks for the speedy reply.

My neighbors are great also, except one. He is on the town board, plus only lives 2 houses down from me (about 1/2 mile away) and drives by a bit. Thats why I was thinking of making it somewhat disguised. A VAWT would be a viable option from the little bit I read about them. Can a VAWT utilize a treadmill motor (or any usable DC motor) also? The only times I see a VAWT mentioned is with homemade stators and stuff (sorry if my terminology is wrong). I suppose it would just be a matter of mounting methods. With a VAWT I could probably make it in a lighthouse design so they do not question what the "spinning thing" is..lol.

The windmill design I was thinking about would have been close to what you use. Was going to make it a bit shorter, about 6-8 feet for the windmill base/tower, but same blade diameter.

One other thing I was thinking about, what would be a good motor for a project such as this? I live in WI, and while it is not the best place for wind, we still get some. Without accurately measuring the wind with a meter, it approx ranges from 0 to 15-20 depending on time of year and if any fronts move through it goes even higher for short periods of time. I do understand that solar would be the best for my conditions, but it is not always sunny so looking for ways to utilize the cloudy days.

Matt R.

[ghurd]

How about something like an 8' garden windmill, with better blades?

Easy enough to get an amp or 2 or 3, and it would be quite a gain, in percentage, compared to only a 75W PV.

G-

[MattR]

That was approx the height with my idea for the windmill. Also have a rooftop TV tower that I plan on bolting onto a concrete slab with the decorative windmill housing surrounding it. Being at a shorter height and with a sturdy tower bolted down, there should not be a need for guy wires and even the power wire can be hidden as well. I might be wrong about that, yet sounds reasonable to me.

I do like the VAWT idea as well. Will probably make one of each, VAWT and HAWT, since I cannot go up too high without people being suspicious. Since a VAWT can be made to look like some type of art, I could even utilize several of them.

Since I am new to this, I am hoping somebody might have a suggestion for a DC motor to be used with the windmill and also the VAWT systems. For the windmill design I was thinking of about 2 foot blade length made from PVC.

Thanks,

Matt R.

[libra]

I have run into local officials that have their heads stuck in the sand and they also get power happy when they have been in office for while.

I would look to see if I could find other structures that are already up, that you could use as a precedent.

Another idea would be to get chummy with local media and have them at a council meeting when you approach the council about going green.

There is nothing like an official hating to look foolish in the public eye.

I would also get pictures of everything, the tower, and installation, its specs etc.

Talk to engineers and ask for suggestions and guidance. Usually there is someone that will help the little guy.

My tower is 150' and 1000' from a local small airport. It is Federally approved and registared.  I am also in a position to watch their planes for vandlism, and the genny gives them an indication of the wind direction and speed just by  looking at it.

Hope that this helps

Libra

[vawtman]

Howdy neighbor well sort of,Im from New London.

 Wenergies has i call them actually has a good net metering program for small producers and that the way you should go.Vawts dont need clean wind.

 Havent set up anything with them.They did send me a nice pamplet though.

 Debating between heating water or buying the expensive inverter.

[MattR]

Yeah that might help a bit Libra. Thanks. The ideas you gave me plus if I can do enough research on the "pros" of wind energy will help me as well. As with anything, the more knowledge somebody has, the better they are to win the battle when it comes to laws and stuff.

Hiya (neighbor) Vawtman,

I am on grid with Central Wisconsin Energy Cooperative and wish I had a choice of some other company. I moved to the Bowler area about 6-7 years ago from the Milwaukee area. My electric bill is close to triple compared to what I paid closer to beer town. Anyways I have searched for some entry level VAWT plans and the only one that everybody seems to be mentioning is the Lenz. Also noticed that plans for VAWTS seem to always have homemade generators on them and no mention of any with DC motors. So probably a stupid question, will a DC motor such as a treadmill motor work installed on a VAWT? I am not stuck on the treadmill motor but they seem to be the easiest things to find for very low cost. Maybe someday I can learn to wind my own coils and create my own. Anyways a bit off topic Vawtman, how is the fishing down your way? If I remember right, the walleye run should be at full speed this time of year. Just wish I had time to fish.

Matt R.

[vawtman]

Matt, Eds turbine is a nice setup.Never built it.But others like it.Thats great.

 I wonder if you got the middleman syndrome there.What are your rates compared to milwaukee?

 I'll give you a treadmill motor that i played with in the early days.1.5hp 90v.

 Im all about ice fishing.This was a terrible year the ice went out in the middle of January.

[MattR]

Hi Vawtman,

I would have to ask my father since he still lives in that area to get current comparisons. I do know that he told me his facility charge was LOTS less than mine, something like $10.00 and mine is a few pennies under $40.00 and that is before they charge me for using the juice. Not sure why the huge difference but might be because I am in the boonies while he is in a city. Either way it sucks when his total bill is the same as my facility charge.

About the treadmill motor, sounds very cool, thanks. If you need me to come down and pick it up that is fine. I am gone on most weekends though so earliest I could make a trip is either Monday or Tuesday. I sell at flea markets and heading down towards Madison for the Columbus 151 Speedway flea market this weekend. Should be making my journey back home either Sunday Evening or Monday morning. So just let me know if you want me to pick it up and when. I have to take one day and do errands anyways and two places I have to go is Iola and Clintonville, so New London is not that much off the path. If you want to email me, thats fine. redwolf111@yahoo*NOSPAM*.com Just remove the obvious out of the email addy and title it something I can recognise if you do not mind.

Thanks Again,

Matt R.

[luckeydog]

Hey Matt

I have used the Ametek motors with reasonable

results. I have seen as high as 12 amps out of

one of my Ametek 50 vdc motors I think this is

A bit of a freak motor though, Most do around 10 amps

So with the Ametek motors you are looking at around 150 watts in higher

winds.

unless you can find one of the Ametek 99's they produce much higher curent But they

are hard to find anymore.

so with a geared up VAWT you could use a treadmill motor or a Ametek

tape drive motor.

with the PVC blades you can go direct drive witch I think is the better way

to go with a HAWT. It is simple and cheap to build.

Luckeydog

.

[MattR]

Hi Luckeydog,

Are the Ametek motors usually installed in any certain type of thing from the factory? Just wondering so then I can try to keep my eyes out for those as well.

Reason I am going to try some type of PVC blade to start with is I do have some small sections at the house already.

Matt R.

[wooferhound]

ametek motors

http://www.otherpower.com/otherpower_experiments_tapedrivemotors.html

[luckeydog]

you can find them on eBay or you might even find someone hear on the

discussion board willing to sell one.

the Ametek motors came out of old computer tape drives.

like the ones you use to see with the big reel to reel drives.

this was before we had hard drives from what I understand.

I think the Ametek 20's 30's are near worthless but the

40"s 50's 72's and the 99 are good. I would like to get my hands on

one of the 99's so if anyone has one they want to get rid of let me know.

as far as the PVC blades you will want to go with a larger diameter pipe

I think an 8" pipe works very well on the Ametek motor with direct drive

with A 58" diameter turbine.

you can look in my files and see some of the photos I have of the Ametek.

Luckeydog

.

[MattR]

Thanks Woofer for the link.

Luckeydog,

A 58" dia turbine would be great. However I am probably going to have to make this project a little less visible. Kinda tough to disguise a 58" turbine..lol. Might be a possibility in the future IF the county politicians tend to allow some small landowners some slack with zoning. Recently found out of another Shawano county resident that wants a turbine to power the milkhouse on his farm. County is giving him lots of grief over it. Going to be trying to contact that person and see if we team up that maybe it might help a bit. I am sure that we are not the first in this county that have wanted to make some energy this way and been meeting resistance by the county board. Quite honestly, it does not cost the county politicians anything to allow others to use the resources they have available, especially when it is something like this. Windmills are a part of our heritage, and should be a part of the future as well.

Anyways.. finding old tape drives in my area will be slim chances, however I think the possibilities of finding reel to reel players might be a bit more likely. I plan on making my first one with the motor that Vawtman graciously is donating. Once I get the first built, would like to have about 3-4 total built. After that, I plan on still keeping an eye open for parts, and donating some parts when I can.

[vawtman]

Matt, you said  " If you need me to come down and pick it up thats fine"

 Its fine with me if you dont really want it.

[MattR]

Hi Vawtman,

Yes I am interested in the treadmill motor. I just did not know if you preferred to ship it or me to pick it up. That is why I offered to pick it up and was making sure that was okay with you.

Thanks,

MattR

[vawtman]

Matt, i will mail you tomorrow afternoon its past my bedtime.Early riser.

[MattR]

I have to let you know that I will be leaving before noon tomorrow. So I will not get the mail until I arrive back home which should be on Sunday night. I just did not want you to think that I am ignoring your mail. Hope you have a great weekend.

MattR

[MattR]

Vawtman,

Thanks again for the treadmill motor. Was nice meeting you. I will keep you updated on the progress of the wind generator.

Thanks,

Matt R.

[vawtman]

Matt

 Thankyou for the tipup also:>)Very nice:>)

 Nice meeting you also.

[nothing to lose]

Build the genny to look like a miltary propeller aircraft and fly it over the USA flag on a large pole, hide the wires! If the county gives you grief contact media about being forced to remove a USA flag and pole! And also mention the county is Anti Military forcing you to remove a tribute to the USA Airforce you errected as a windvane! Local TV should love to cover a story like that, might go national even

 That should turn some heads around, maybe make a few roll a bit too!

If you were to actaully try that, then use a DC motor for the genny, in the event they find the wires they are only there to run the prop when there is no wind right! That's why the batteries are nearby the wires also, to run the motor

A lenz2 turbine might work well for you, depending on many things maybe you could mount that on your roof. Run some small ones and if asked they are attic ventilators

[MattR]

Hi NTL,

I like that flag pole idea. Especially since my business is flag sales. Already have had media coverage based on a feature called "Patriot of the Month" that I have on my website, and the residents of the town that have seen that news story would easily believe it is nothing but a "Tribute" to the troops. I will have to seriouslly think about this, sounds like a great idea.

Thanks Again,

Matt R.

[nothing to lose]

Glad you like the idea

Something I was playing with at one time for a kinda similar idea (aircraft genny) was to set it up so that when the wind blows the Rotors will run fast to make the power as a genny. When the wind is not blowing a DC motor runs to turn the prop slow for looks.

 This of course will waste power when not charging, however since the blades are always turning there is no cogging to over come for startup so it may gain some extra charging in low winds where the genny would not actually startup from a stop.

In playing with some DC motors it's clear of course that the more load on the motor the more amps/watts it uses. Therefore it would reason that if no winds at all the motor will use the most power to run the rotor. ANY little breeze that helps to remove the load from the motor by helping to turn the rotor should cause the motor to use less power. So if the power to run a motor to turn the rotor at a set RPM is figured in a windless room/shop you could figure the MOST power that would be used per hour or day of no winds, it should be far less when actaully flown however do to the fact you should normally have some type of low winds or gentle breeze helping to remove the load from the motor. There should be some point at which the wind would be turning the rotor fast enough that the motor is not using any power even though the genny may still be below the cutin speed to make power.

Depending on many things including winds and motors, perhaps enough EXTRA power could be gained from a gentle breeze durring the day that would not have started a stoped genny to make up for the wasted power of running the motor durring no winds. If a break even point is achieved on power gained and power wasted, you have not lost anything.

Also if the blades are always turning rather wind blows or not then it does not look as much like a working genny. And of course a switch could be placed on the line that runs the motor to turn it off at anytime. In your case maybe run it durring day when people may be looking and turn it off at night when no-ones around

So no matter how calm a day it is, if the council is looking it is turning!