Steam/Hydraulic engine Idea

[lawrence722002]

I have read so many thing's of late attempting to come up with a different idea for power. Ive read about bio fuels the pro's and con's solar and others. As stated by so many people there is no one way, so I thought of the following, remember altho I'm a dreamer and have many idea's the most I can do is read about what others have done, being I'm disabled and live on a monthly check supporting a family of three any idea I have whether good or not I will never know, so perhaps someone else can modify this idea or it will give them an idea. Either way its better then just dreaming.

Idea:

     Well Ive read about steam and how using steam is excellent, Except for individuals to use as a means of power, due to the pressure and the heat and many other thing's the amount that is needed can be dangerous. Well this is the concept basiclly you use steam to build pressure inside of a flexable tube/balloon so to speak and that is incased. Around the incased balloon is space filled by hydraulic fluid which pushes many hydraulic cylinders, those would be low pressure cylinders and a great many of them small in size. In the end that pressure of each would be additive and yes the hydraulic fluid in the casing would also circulate to a degree to keep the temp of the fluid down or a fluid used that is not bothered by high temp. With this pressure in hydraulic terms would be able to move anything , whether it was a crank shaft or turbine of such and there would hopefully be no loss in the hydraulic fluid, as for the steam it would be vented in a process that would reduce the pressure thru steps of the same and cooled in the end just like using copper tubing for a still, returning it to its previous start as water. As for heating the water if figured right small amounts could be used which would make it easy to heat and quicker, as to the fuel well just about anything could be used but hopefully something like bio fuel or vegetable oil and used vegetable oil, altho from what Ive read used vegetable oil would either need to be maintained at a high temp or converted to bio fuel, but either way Im curious as to what others think of this? There idea to this? Weather it would work?

As to those who will comment on bio fuel and diesel from what i read its and excellent idea and probably one of the best, one of the draw backs to it from what I have read tho is its destructive nature to the engine in the end, many will state good and bad, and im still learning and reading about it.

remember you all know more then I, for I just fumble around, but as it is said about a broken clock at least it is right twice in a 24 hour time, so perhaps one day ill come up with a good idea,,,,lol

Also thank all of you for the comments on my other post, I have decided to scrap all my boat motor parts and use the scrap money for a project, again thanks..And as always I love to hear your comments, whether good or bad both inspire new ideas!

[joestue]

You can't beat Mr. Rankine.

If you have a turbine use it with steam.

It will be more efficient than converting steam to hydraulic power.

It's just one more conversion step.

Hydralic pumps/motors are 85% efficient

[lawrence722002]

well this is meant for much more then just power, the idea is to make this a more safe way to convert the steam, and also to use perhaps in other app. The idea is only concept tho, see from what Ive read the problems to steam is one that it is dangerous due to presure, this would elevate that, also when ever you have moving parts thos parts need oil to reduce friction, and water/steam is not good for oil, but this also would elevate that problem too. But if as you stated hydralic's are 85% effecient that would be awsome, because i think with this idea it could easliy make it safe for at home builders.

[joestue]

I don't see the danger in steam. If you are thinking of a boiler with alot of super heated water then yeah, that's a reasonable danger.

I really don't know what you are talking about.

[finnsawyer]

It's curious that you want to use many small hydraulic cylinders.  You can get the same result with less fuss and muss using one large one per crank.  You can even use a double acting cylinder and valving to make the cylinder go both ways.  But the balloon can't expand without limit.  The question is, "How do you get the system to relax so the hydraulic fluid returns to the tube/balloon?"  Just venting the steam means you lost the heat of vaporization, which is large and results in an inefficient process, and probably is why steam locomotives used high pressures in the first place.  You can condense the steam and preheat the incoming water, but be aware that it takes much more cooling water to condense the steam than the amount of water that will be converted later to steam, again a loss.  So, you really need a "steam" motor.  Oops, did we just reinvent the steam turbine?  No free lunch here.  

[pepa]

hi Lawrence, i too am disabled to a point and have to spind most of my time sitting with these machines, thinking. dont let it get you down, use your mind as a tool and read everything you are interested in to increase your knowledge in these areas. i am taking a course in basic eletronics that i found for free on the computer and i have bought a lot of books. barns and noble has a used book section with low prices and a world of choices. at my age and helth, i will never finish some of what i start, but i wont give up. pepa

[stop4stuff]

'flexable tube/balloon'...

have a google for 'air muscles' and 'stirling engine' (or heat difference engine)...

put the 2 together, get the math right, & then throw in some solar heat to make the thing work... maybe one day... isn't life grand out of the box!

keep those ideas flowing, & don't forget about the Laws of Thermodynamics & energy conservation... simple & cheap wins the day

paul

[lawrence722002]

Ive Read That a picture is worth a thousand words, and im not good at explaining the crazy idea I had, but I drew it out as best as I could, I know its barbaric but did the best I could to try and further my explaination of what I meant, oh well!

[lawrence722002]

Okay either my picture sucks or this is a terriable idea, was hopping that Id get a few post telling me what they thought about this concept, just thought that the idea of having machanical motion and even electric produced by steam would be cool. The main reason for this was to keep the oil that is used to lubericate the cyclinders totaly sepperate from the water, just thought it would be a cool idea to make a small moving vehical by this theam!

[kurt]

lawrence722002, don't ever post a bitmap to the board ever agean shame on you!!  convert that thing to a .gif and make sure it is under 150K before you post it agean please. rule of thumb .gif for line drawings .jpeg for pictures. bitmaps are just to large in file size for what they show to be exeptable here.

[wdyasq]

Lawrence,

Maybe try - 'picture too large'. And since you asked, maybe it sucks and the picture is to large.

There are some really good reasons the world went from steam to IC engines. There are some really good reasons few run hydraulic drives. Perhaps when the two are combined,

they don't create any new laws of physics but only add to the existing problems/laws.

It is always good to crawl through the museum of ideas before attempting to build something already tried. One CAN learn from others mistakes. The study of history is so we can perfect the mistakes of the past ... we are not required to repeat them. The world needs 'improved' mistakes - not 'new and improved'.

Ron

[lawrence722002]

I appoligize for the bmp had no idea, new to this of course one could guess that because im in the newbie section and not posting in other only reading, as to the others, im reading everything and learning, nothing else needs to be said there, would of been nice for you to post the simlar idea with links so i could of read, but hopfully ill keep going for pot luck and hope that i come across somthing. Agian sorry about the bmp file format was my first drawing anyways. Also any question I would have some were on the internet have been asked so ill re-frain from asking,,,lol

[RP]

A few thoughts:  

You can't think of it like compressed air.  It's vaporized water and will only remain a vapor while it's hot.

That means the balloon device and the hydraulic fluid on the other side of must be kept hot at all times or your hard earned cubic feet of steam will turn back into tablespoons of water again giving you no output.

I'm not sure what kind of material could withstand all the cycling at 250°F or so.

[wdyasq]

Life would be nice if others did our research for us Lawrence. Tests for 'grade' would be wonderful if they were only on questions one knew the answer to.

There are those here who continue to try and trick 'newbies' into building their probably unworkable devices. There was one who proposed Newton mechanics as it related to aerodynamics was wrong and we should embrace his ideas as fact ....

There are reasons engineers spend most of their educational days in math and physics classes. And, there is a reason after 'education' the professors keep teaching, the physicists theorize and the engineers go on to build.

I've developed a damn thick hide. I figure if someone knowledgeable says, 'It won't work', if i want to know why, it is my problem, not his. It seems our educational system has so coddled the 'children', even the truth is too harsh a discipline for many.

Education is mere learned than taught. If you want one, you have to go after it. AFTER you spend 600-800 hours learning the why of why steam to hydraulic won't work you will be prepared to find the drawings of what and pictures of it. (Probably a non-existent impossible project.)

If you want milk and cookies served because you came up with an idea ... well, maybe you should be in politics.

Ron  

[TomW]

RP

I liked the vapor vs. liquid as volume with the only difference being temperature bit. I think it could lead to confusion. Very good point.

Cheers.

TomW

[TomW]

steam not vapor duh.

[jht1057]

     Steam will carry the correct lubricants very well, so lubricating moving parts in a steam system is not a problem. Steam locomotives are the best examples, they use what is called an oil injection lubricator. With every stroke of the cylinders, oil is injected into the steam lines supplying the cylinders.

jht1057

[Mussey]

Consider these facts: Steam expansion is a strong force and incompressable fluid is a good conveyor of that force. One other thing, mass flow of the fluid in a rotating conical (helical flow) forced by steam expansion to centrifugal reaction thrust nozzles is a high torque producer.

Unique property of forced helical forced flow where one side of the four channels is open to the case. A lot of heat is generated in the fluid in the resulting turbulent forced flow. Now loop the fluid flow and add water for steam in a combined cycle steam engine.

The Richard Clem Engine from an Asphalt emulsifier functions using these principals.

See: Hydraulics and pneumatics.com forum under system design or go to Keelynet.com.

Application of this steam hydraulic engine idea combined with electric motor generator provides power for a computer controled hybrid car.

Advantages: Low production cost, zero emissions, low volume of water used for steam which is then cycled through condenser and last but not least a Stanley Meyer water electolyser to produce Brown's Gas burned in ceramic combustor to help startup and maintain fluid temperature in differing ambient temperature conditions.

Dr. Alfred Evert @ Evert.com discusses physics issues and theories associated with the Clem Engine. Now the ever present issue MONEY, and facilities to build a proof of concept engine in addition to the Clem Engine that "Got LOST" so conveniently in Texas in 1972. Was it the FBI or thugs hired by Dallas energy Barons? No matter. The design WORKS!

[zeusmorg]

  Face it, this is pure hokum,you can't get something for nothing, Overunity is a pipe dream. Clem engine? riiight Stanley Meyer? come on gimme a break..more money won't make overunity work, nothing will.

  I don't care how much fancy talk surrounds these so called theories, whoever preaches them is in my book, NUTS!

 I'll only believe it when i see it, I saw the stanley meyers dune buggy and he wouldn't reveal what was in his black box.......

[TomW]

Mussey;

Please pedal your overunity diatribe elsewhere.

This is NOT negotiable.

You have your warning. There is only one.

TomW [As Editor]

[Mussey]

The steam hydraulic motor. Forget Over Unity. Run the engineering programs that prove the motor function. Focus on function! Running off the deep end before proving the process is non productive. Further, HHO gas electrolyser works whether Stanley Meyers buggy and it's black box did or not. It is like mentioning sex at the outset and throwing the resulting baby out with the bath water. We all know sex works but where do babies really come from?

Life requires sorting out detail and proving validity of the elements. An engineer is more inclined than a blogger for sure. Now from the top...oil,forced helical flow, heat and last water and steam...now is that so difficult?

[TomW]

Ya Ya sure.

It is up to you to show the proof.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.

We have had this battle before. The more out than in crowd lost. They have been banished permanently.

A even with a fresh coat of paint a turd is still a turd.

Might want to try keelynet they love this stuff.

Or just build it and show the proof. Or not. Its your call.

TomW

[zeusmorg]

  Consider THESE facts: steam production at best has a 55% efficiency, the other 45% is lost.. unless co-generation is used( using the waste heat for other purposes). Then you have the inefficiency of the steam motor. Turbines do the best and still loose 5% of the energy contained in the steam. SURE a HHO gas electrolyzer works,,, if you have a use for the hydrogen...and it DOES NOT create more energy than it take to electrolyze.

 And on the subject of hydraulic efficiency, it's usually around 72%..

  Oh and your sex comparison? When is the last time you saw how much a pregnant woman ate?

 Using fancy descriptions without showing the validity of your claims doesn't fly. Any COMPETENT engineer will tell you,, every step of energy conversion ADDS UP TO A LOSS.

[Mussey]

You don't forget Over Unity very well. Perhaps you are trying to stimulate dialogue?

I can pove nothing by blogging the subject. However, this is an OPEN? discussion group. My experience at the Boeing Co. dealing with hydraulics gives me a better than average understanding of turbulent flow heating of hydraulic fluid. If you would address the functionality of a rotating steam hydraulic motor I would be more than happy to discuss it. Consider this, Richard Clem was not an over unity freak.

He was enept in his mechanical design. However, he knew there was a motive power in the helical forced flow of oil and reaction thrust of his pump. Not included in the Keelynet.com article was any reference to steam....and that is fraud! But Steam engines is what I thought we were talking about.

You want to prove this?  Cast the housing from the drawing the article provided from aluminum and again cast the runner with 4 channels. Use Kingston tilting pad bearings (journal and thrust) rather than high speed ball bearings. Use 316 SS thick wall tube for drive shaft. Use ISO 460 synthetic oil. Add water injection from modified automotive fuel injectors. Make steam condenser from automotive radiator.

Now the other issue is heat. Turbulent flow does not provide startup heat nor maintain a constant 300-350 degree F operational temperature. So, HHO gas from an electrolyzer that is on demand is used burned in a "sand burner" or cast ceramic combustor. Very simple engine. Not very expensive to build. LNG could be burned just as easily if you can find some.

A 200 lb turbine produces 300 bhp for a 3:1 yield....not over unity. How efficient is that? Very! And a damn site better that what most people consider a steam engine to be. The sad fact is that computers encourage instant gratification from the displayed data. Now I have Engineering programs that prove this engine works that I will not share. I thought you might like to mess with refinements to the outline I have just offered as might other members. Most of the before mentioned information is Public Domain. File your patents gents.......it's your baby.

From experience sex is messy.....try skydrol when a fitting blows....talk about a bath......messy! CAUTION: This "baby" could be messy too.

[TomW]

Massey;

You asked:



However, this is an OPEN? discussion group.

What part of "private resource" don't you understand?

To quote the story submission guidelines over here:

http://www.fieldlines.com/submit

Partial quote:

This board focuses on practical, workable ideas for producing electricity to power a remote home--though many of our members live on the grid and simply like to experiment with renewable energy.

I don't think anyone has any "right" to post here.

See this page and in particular the last 2 sentences I quote.:

http://www.fieldlines.com/special/faq

By posting your message on our board, you are expressly giving us permission to make it available to the public via our board software. It continues to be owned by you, and we will not use it or your photos for any other purpose without your consent. We reserve the right to move and delete postings at any time, without warning to the author. We also reserve the right to ban users from this board, at any time, for any reason.

Now, what part are you unclear on? That pretty much knocks your theory you can post anything here in the head, don't you think?

Just give it up. Or submit a posting with an actual working device. Or not.

TomW

[zeusmorg]

   "Now I have Engineering programs that prove this engine works that I will not share."

  I could write an "engineering program" that adds factors not in the real world too.

 Sounds just like the black box that was on stanley meyer's dune buggy...... Build it,, show me the process. Don't hide critical facts show the input of energy and then show me the output ONLY then will I believe this hokum..

 What this board is good for, is people showing others PRACTICAL applications, not some "pie in the sky" dream, in other words, it's not up to me to prove you wrong, it's up to you to prove your so-called "theories".

 This is the last post I'll make on this stuff, from now on Mussey, I will ignore anything you have to post.