big alternator advice 400hz 1700rpm, three phase

[windpowerguy]

just bought big alternator, 400hz three phase, This alternator can be set-up for either wind or water power.  This is a permanent magnet with 1-3/8 shaft.  KVA 10, Volts 120/208, Amp 48/28, cycles 400, phase 3, RPM 1714. georator brand, any thoughts of how I could spin this thing in wind? I have  a friend who can take down a 10 foot aeoromotor, but I think with this thing being 150 pounds plus, it would probably unbalance this thing

thanks in advance!!!

[windpowerguy]

So here is the big alternator, 160 pounds of stuff:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=180175477511&ssPageName=STRK:MEW
N:IT&ih=008

Hoping to attach it to lawnmower, see if it makes any amps at all.

then rectifier:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=130170174843&ssPageName=STRK:MEW
N:IT&ih=003

then controller:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=120182497824&ssPageName=STRK:MEW
A:IT&ih=002

[Flux]

Why do people buy things and then try to dream up a use for them?

Sounds like something that would suit a reasonable sized hydro with precise governors or with a high voltage battery set up.

I am sure you could do something with a monster wind machine with a transmission to increase speed or you could use it for 24v with a modest sized prop and accept that you will get well below its claimed output. Either way cog and iron loss may delay start up.

If the Aeromotor is a water pumping mill as I suspect, the gearbox on that will weigh as much as your alternator .

Flux

[TomW]

Flux;

Why do people buy things and then try to dream up a use for them?

My theory is that Ebay sellers have figured out adding "wind turbine" or "Any RE term here" suckers in buyers.

Not sure how many times [hundreds minimum] folks here have tried to explain that it is an integrated system that requires that you consider how all the parts will interact together.

Its too bad because the cash just wasted on that pie in the sky idea could have gotten him well on the way to a custom owner built unit to fit the needs exactly.

Oh, well, not my day to protect folks who don't spend time to research before buying stuff in a rush to do something NOW!

Cheers.

TomW

[CmeBREW]

It looks interesting to me -- especially at that price. (also that 3-phase rectifier)

It is a permanent magnet alternator. It would be interesting to see what volts and amps it puts out at like say 150-300 rpm or so.  Maybe hook it to a tractor pto drive or something similar. It might work for a 24 volt system. Be nice to see some 'real output' numbers though.

[windpowerguy]

Thanks for your kind reply!

I feel bad, because I bought it, and now the thought of getting something sent to me that I can't lift seems real silly. If you know anyone that might want it, let me know, Perhaps I could get it shipped to someone with a waterfall on their property.  I think it would be easier for me to fool around with a hornet minimill than this thing, I might see if he'll let me out of it if I pay him a penalty. It seemed really simple, but on more research, it's kind of like building a car.

There;s these guys:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=150182915015&ssPageName=STRK:MEW
A:IT&ih=005

Then there's build your own rotor guys (this site)

then there's hornets, and hornets might be better for me to start on,

http://www.survivalunlimited.com/hornetwindturbine.htm

thanks again!!

-John

[windpowerguy]

Nice to have some support, I'm struggling with idea to cancel (my first ebay purchase to go bad) or go ahead and plunk down money. at 150lb, I doubt ability to even pick it up. but very crudely, (I know this is not physics, but hand waving)

If I divide the rpms by 10 I get 174rpm, then 10 by volts, 16, not bad, 2-4 amps, not bad, and plenty of oomph to take more abuse, I suppose.

Well, thanks, I'll probably send over the check, If you want this thing, let me know, I'll let you buy it,

thanks,

-john

(ps this guy has a few more of these)

[wdyasq]

Yes, if you believe the "Hornet" guy you must believe in Santa, flying reindeer and the easter bunny.

You are on a site where honest opinions can be found. There are a few who might let you go down the path of stupidity. I suggest you spend a few weeks reading before you make another expensive mistake.

Ron

[windpowerguy]

thanks!

lol, i'm in the right place then...

I can sell ya a big alternator cheap...

-wpg

[CmeBREW]

Like you said, you could always make a good back-up generator with it.

Like I said, for that price , if you lived out on a farm or something, I think it would be alot of fun to experiment with that big alternator. YOu mentioned the big BREEZY 5.5.   -I think that would be a very good alternator to play with for that sort of thing.

I would Gear it up 2:1 / 3:1 or even 4:1 with big chain and sprokets and put some big blades (12,14,16ft diam.??) on it and you could have something worth singing about for only $150 bucks.  I WISH I lived on a farm!!

It does 208volt 3-phase (permanent magnet).  So I get 52 volts at 435 rpm  / 26 volts at 217rpm.

It might do over a few hundred watts with an 8-10 foot prop on it (or so) - for a 24volt system as Flux even suggested. I wonder what it would do with a 12volt system, even though it becomes inefficient early. Could just furl early and that alternator looks like it has very good heat disapation anyway.

Many alternators weigh well over a hundred pounds anyway.

If I lived in the right place for it, I would like to experiment with that. But I do not. I have over $400 dollars in just making my one medium size alternator. Because I always wind up getting alot of 'extra' parts. (extra mags,bigger spool of wire,etc)

If you get that big alternator, please try to test it and get some 'real output' numbers for us.  Some of us are still curious.

[windpowerguy]

Thanks so much, I was convinced I would just kill the sale, and bah humbug, that crazy idea, I've been on the net, and now have achey back and ergo yoga/taichi deficiency. I'll show you my plan to use my lawnmower as tester with ascii drawing

(also experiment)

Lawnmower:            Alternator  

wheel

I---I       I----I

_______

                     IIIIIIIII

                     Bolt      I    

    Mower            I Alt axle   I

     axle            I             I

        O            I     O        I

                     I            I

                     Bolt      I

________ I II

I---I        I----I

connect the two with bolts, and the two axles via some kinda car belt and pulley system, and I can see how much

electricity this thing makes. If it doesn't stall motor can increase gear ratio.

benefits to this system are that all moving parts can be angled to garage floor.

downside is that a gasoline tank will be contiguous with a 40 amp 200volt monstrosity that I'm being sold as is over the internet. The nice thing is my lawnmower has a few safety features:

1 when I let go the bar, it stalls out.

and a convenience feature

2. it  starts without without blade being in gear.
   
3. I can fill it with just enough gas to start, and not smoke while doing so...
   
4. Connect it to that beefy rectifier, I can pick up that 65amp solar controller, that might atleast tell me about how much juice this thing is makeing.
   
   

i don't smoke, that was a joke.. Any thoughts how I could test electricity produced by it more cheaply/safely, I guess call a large motor/generator company, they could probably put it on some kinda mill I guess. lose a little fun though.

well thanks ! take care,

and it does seem simpler to just get one of those hornets, you know they start in under 2 miles an hour wind!

-wpg

[electrondady1]

 you have the thing up for sale again but
 it's got back up generator written all over it.
http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2007/9/18/2354/10224

[electrondady1]

wtf.

http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2007/9/18/2354/10224

[CmeBREW]

Can't understand that diagram. It sounds like you should perhaps start out with something easier/smaller/safer. That big alternator can be extremely dangerous if geared incorrectly to a gas engine.

[windpowerguy]

what could go wrong? I don't think I'll be any where near the 1600 rpm of alternator. I think I'll e3ither stall out, or be running at around 100-200rpm

what jumps out at you as far as most dangerous aspect?

Of course I'd check the gearing to make sure it's balpark right,

well, thanks

-wpg

PS sure I should start out with something smaller, I just pulled a great heavy duty motor out of a treadmill. but I offered to buy this already on ebay, so I'm a little stuck.

thanks again!

[wdyasq]

You have a very nice alternator there. I suspect it was originally used to power spindle motors in a factory needing high speed spindles of some sort. Now, VFD inverters are used for such things.

It is 400Hz. It will not easily grid tie to 240V 60HZ 3PH without a tremendous amount of work. I don't see how it can be geared up and used as a grid tied machine. Well, actually I do but, it would get so involved as to be a nightmare for all but those with experience and skills in many disciplines of electrical work. It would be a challenge for one with the skills and education, IMO.

If one cares to find out what that thing can be used for, they would need to spin it up  and get a power curve on it. From that curve one could make a good guess of the power and voltage outputs of the device.

If nothing else, you may have some really nice stator plates to build a fine wind machine. There is a good housing, the thing should support a large shaft. Once you have possession of the thing, a good electric motor man might be able to sort through it and actually figure a way to series wire the coils and you may be able to even use it without a complete rewind.

There are a lot of options. There are a lot of unknowns and a lot questions. But, this is not a 'just slap a set of blades on it' and go type of project. I find it enjoyable seeing how something like you have is designed, electrically and mechanically. I've wasted far more than your purchase cost and freight on things with less promise.

At least your purchase doesn't eat your food, drink your beer, complain and demand attention on its' schedule.

Ron

[CmeBREW]

Well, we don't know the extent of your electrical and mechanical knowledge. My own is quite limited compared to the other quys who just commented who obviously each have many decades of knowledge and experience.

 I believe alot of those mower gas engines run around 3600rpm.  If the alternator was still wired for 208, and you hooked up even 1:1  , the alternator could be producing a LETHAL high voltage around 416volts!.  And if someone hooked the gearing up backwards,(NOT implying you would) I suspect that big alternator could even go above a thousand volts!. Which is about like lighning. I wouldn't want to be anywhere around it. Make certain of what you are doing when dealing with high voltage. Personally, I don't mess with anything above 200volts.

The alternator will not 'stall out' until a electrical load is hooked to it.

If it is geared together even at 1:1 , the altenator will go about the rpm of whatever the gas engine is rotating. (that is with no load on it)  But the voltage could be Lethal. How are you only going to get 200rpm from a fast rpm gas engine?

YOu could get most (or,all) of your money back for the alternator.

- Be very careful if anything. What are the rating on the treadmill motor?

[windpowerguy]

well, I searched around the net, and your right,

I'd have to find a 10 to 1 reducer, I just want to see if this alternator works,

but It's not that important, so 360rpm would be ok. or a large generator shop, that might be able to tell me:

1. does spinning this thing make electricity or just grinding noises?
   
2. how much torque is required to generate what electricity, this might help in figuring out how big diameter windmill, or water power wheel,  or if it's worth it.
   
   

I'll get more info on treadmill pm dc motor soon, it's a nice old big one.

I got spec sheet from company on big alternator, but didn't seem to have relevant info, I can post it if might be helpful, let me know.

-wpg.

here is the spirit of what I was going to try, I was also thinking about using my electric lawnmower to run it, it's ac, and I could still convert down, 10 to 1 I believe,  

http://theepicenter.com/tow082099.html

thanks!!