Author Topic: Little help wanted  (Read 4949 times)

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jaskiainen

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Little help wanted
« on: January 06, 2008, 10:10:45 AM »
Hi all!


Im new here and need some guidance with winding stator coils.


Im interested of alternative energy and want to build my own windturbine.

My goal is to get the startup speed quite low, around 7mph

and hope to get around 200 watts in around 15mph.

Does that sound reasonable?


How does the stator coils winding rounds affect to generator?

Volts? Amps? Startup speed?

And how does the coil filament thickness affect to it?

I know that there is a limit for copperwire to carry amps depending on its

lenght and thickness (read resistance).

Im about to use 2 rotors each 12 NdFeb magnets, 3-phase star connected stator

(3 coils with every phase).

Is there some diameter for the rotor to start with? Id like to keep it as

small as possible. Below 8' diameter. I am somehow hoping that there would be

some helpful sheets to find, but all Ive found is just test results for already

built generators. Is there any sheets that shows how does different coil winding

rounds, example 30 roundns, 40 rounds, 50 rounds... affects to same generator?

And also how does different coil filament thickness affect to it with

different wind speeds? It would really help me to understand the basics here.


Is it easier to built up 12 volts system than 24? Is there different between

them as their rotor diameter?


I need to know some of the props too.

How do the prop diameter affect to the turbine?


I hope that You guys would keep the answers and questions simple

(ask and explain like I was 6 years old) because my tecnical vocabulary

is limited. I have found plenty of information here wich I just cant understand

at all.

« Last Edit: January 06, 2008, 10:10:45 AM by (unknown) »

Flux

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Re: Little help wanted
« Reply #1 on: January 06, 2008, 06:35:25 AM »
Starting point is the energy in the wind. That determines what is possible.


Have a look at Michael Klemen's site and look at his figures for a good turbine, you will not even be able to match that, but you may get close.


Your requirements could just about be met with a decent 8ft turbine.


From experience you will get a feel of how much magnet you need for a given size machine. From that you can deduce windings that will suit your needs.


It is no good making arbitrary guesses at these things. Either you go into all the design details from things published here and other good sites or you choose a proven design by Hugh Piggott, Windstuff Ed our our hosts at Otherpower but they tend to concentrate on bigger machines.


The number of turns and wire size could vary drastically depending on the size of prop you choose and the magnets you choose. Turns for one magnet system 0000000000000000

It is actually more difficult to build a 12v machine than 24v as you have to deal with thicker wire, thicker connecting leads and more lossy and expensive rectifiers. Your choice may be based on other considerations rather than ease of building.


Start up speed depends on blade tsr, stator turns and magnet field strength. Wire size will be determined by system voltage and power required at a given wind speed.


Prop output is proportional to swept area squared. Speed depends on tsr and for a given tsr is inversely proportional to diameter. Power out is theoretically proportional to wind speed cubed but you will not track that over much of a speed range.


Flux

« Last Edit: January 06, 2008, 06:35:25 AM by Flux »

Flux

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Re: Little help wanted
« Reply #2 on: January 06, 2008, 06:39:59 AM »
Sorry about the cat's contribution in the middle of that.

Should have said that turns for one magnet system may be totally useless for another.

Flux
« Last Edit: January 06, 2008, 06:39:59 AM by Flux »

wooferhound

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Re: Little help wanted
« Reply #3 on: January 06, 2008, 07:09:48 AM »
The way I did it was to go ahead and build the magnet rotors (Disks) and mount them up where you can spin them to the speed that you want to operate at. Then start winding test coils and place them between your magnets rotors. Measure the output of your test coils until you get the output that you are looking for. Now you just duplicate the coil that worked like you wanted.


The number of wire turns sets the voltage

the wire thickness sets the amperage

Bigger diameter props spin slower

The more blades on your prop, the slower the spin

« Last Edit: January 06, 2008, 07:09:48 AM by wooferhound »

jaskiainen

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Re: Little help wanted
« Reply #4 on: January 06, 2008, 07:43:21 AM »
Thanks Flux!


But thats what I was afraid of.

I ment that I dont need any specific calculations just point me some direction.

For example if I use #18 coil 40 turns in it and get 3voltages in 200 rpm.

What happens if I try to use 30 turns in same coil?

What happens to voltage? Increase or decrease? (no matter how much)

What happens to amps?

What happens to start up speed?


And one thing more...

How does airgap between stator and rotor affect volts, amps and startup speed?


I know that I must do a lot of testing to get the results like the way I like

them to be, but just dont want to do it in "dark".

If You could just light up the room a bit ;)


My first goal is to build up a small waterturbine, because I think it might

be easier to predict and influence in rotating speed.

After that with more experiensed I will start my very own wind generator.


I believe that many of beginners have same kind of problems like me.

« Last Edit: January 06, 2008, 07:43:21 AM by jaskiainen »

electrondady1

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Re: Little help wanted
« Reply #5 on: January 06, 2008, 07:49:23 AM »
if you already have the mags, what shape and dimensions?

that will dictate the size of rotors

and the available space for coils.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2008, 07:49:23 AM by electrondady1 »

jaskiainen

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Re: Little help wanted
« Reply #6 on: January 06, 2008, 07:51:44 AM »
Thanks woofer!


That was kind of the information I was after!

So if I got it right:

The more turns per coil, the higher the voltage?

The thicker the wire, the higher are amps?

The bigger the prop diameter, the slower it will spin?

Does it start to spin in lower winds then?


Now were getting there!

« Last Edit: January 06, 2008, 07:51:44 AM by jaskiainen »

jaskiainen

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Re: Little help wanted
« Reply #7 on: January 06, 2008, 07:55:06 AM »
Nope not yet.


That is something I will decide later on after I have done more research.

NdFeB magnets are quite expensive and I dont want to buy too big ones.

So I just look around first.

« Last Edit: January 06, 2008, 07:55:06 AM by jaskiainen »

Flux

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Re: Little help wanted
« Reply #8 on: January 06, 2008, 08:20:53 AM »
Yes any beginner will have the same problem, you have no starting point as reference, that is why I try to get people to start with something that can work.


If you happen to choose a suitable magnet system for the size of blades you want to use then you can sort the whole thing out quite easily. Do a test coil and from that you can decide on the number of turns for your cut in speed. All you can reasonably do is use the thickest wire that will get your number of turns in.


If you chose a huge magnet system then that approach would work even if you had to add a load of resistance in the line to avoid stall, you would have the best possible machine but possibly at a high initial cost.


If you happened to choose a magnet system that is too small then you are in serious trouble. You can still get cut in right and you may even get respectable low wind performance but you may never be able to control it in a higher wind, the performance will be poor and it may burn out or run away mechanically and become noisy and dangerous.


If you must do it by instinct then at least look at disc sizes and magnet size that others have managed to get results with, but even then there is considerable variation in what is possible and something chosen arbitrarily that works quite well in one wind area may not work well in other conditions.


I suppose it would be useful if someone tabulated the quantity of magnet for a given size of prop, that would be a good starting point but I am not aware of such information.


Hydro is much easier, if you get cut in right then the turbine will self adapt to some extent. You still need some idea of the magnets to get a given power but at higher speeds you will likely err on the safe side. You can fiddle the loading with the air gap. Only thing to watch is that hydro rating is 100% duty cycle and wind is far from it. A machine that could be rated at 1kW for wind may fry at 300W hydro duty, so don't design for far too low a speed and compensate by increasing air gap.


Voltage at constant speed is directly related to coil turns so increasing turns increases volts or looked at another way it reduces cut in speed. Increasing air gap is similar to reducing turns as far as volts is concerned.


Amps are not easy to deal with, all that you can guarantee is that thicker wire will carry more amps without burn out. It will not necessarily give you more output, especially with wind, unless you use some form of matching other than direct rectifier to battery. The best match comes when you reach about 50% efficiency at 3 times cut in wind speed. If the alternator resistance is too low you can add to it externally, you can't do anything if the resistance is too high.


I am sure this doesn't help you much, that is why people spend lots of time and effort publishing designs that are known to work. It has taken me a lifetime to be in a position to design these things from scratch with reasonable certainty that they will work first time. If you start from an arbitrary point without using the basis of someone's experience you will learn the hard way, as we all had to do before the internet.  


I have given enough information here at various times to design these things from scratch but unfortunately it is not all in one place and I would be the last person to be able to find it.


One thing that I will do is look at a proposed design and see if it stands a chance of working as long as I have all the details.


Flux

« Last Edit: January 06, 2008, 08:20:53 AM by Flux »

Flux

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Re: Little help wanted
« Reply #9 on: January 06, 2008, 08:36:32 AM »
You are at an earlier stage than I realised, all of this has been covered many times but if you are recent you will not know about it.


If you can settle the size of blades based on your wind speed and what you hope to achieve then you can look at Dan's work on Otherpower and see what size magnets he is using for certain blade sizes ( look at the more recent stuff as that will be more accurate as they have gained experience).


Various places you will find information on doing test coils to arrive at the correct turns for your cut in speed. If you get that right and choose suitable magnets for blade size then you are in with a decent chance ( but you are still repeating Dan's work so why not use it direct?).


For hydro you have no starting point really , if you want to go down that route then ask first. If I spot the question I will try to help.

Flux

« Last Edit: January 06, 2008, 08:36:32 AM by Flux »

Boondocker

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Re: Little help wanted
« Reply #10 on: January 06, 2008, 08:38:30 AM »
Below is a link documenting my experience with coils that illustrates some of the variables:


http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2007/1/24/233533/669


As mentioned previous, be prepared to study and experiment to construct a reasonable working "Power Plant"  or follow the plans of a proven design.


Good Luck

« Last Edit: January 06, 2008, 08:38:30 AM by Boondocker »

jaskiainen

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Re: Little help wanted
« Reply #11 on: January 06, 2008, 08:40:41 AM »
Thanks Flux!


Now I think I got the guidance I needed.

I know what to expect here. Blood, sweat and tears. Maybe a few burnt coils too ;)

All I have to do now is just look around the place called internet (You may have

heard of it before) and gather more information, learn from others and start

to make plans for the one of my own.


Thank You guys

« Last Edit: January 06, 2008, 08:40:41 AM by jaskiainen »

Boss

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Re: Little help wanted
« Reply #12 on: January 06, 2008, 08:45:12 AM »
Sticking coils between the rotors seems simplistic. How do you hold them in there without catching the wires on the spinning magnets?  
« Last Edit: January 06, 2008, 08:45:12 AM by Boss »
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Flux

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Re: Little help wanted
« Reply #13 on: January 06, 2008, 09:18:31 AM »
Yes even that is something that is just taken for granted and may present a serious challenge.


I normally use a lathe and the bit of coil outside of the magnet discs can be stuck to a piece of wood held in the tool post. If you have to make do with hand cranking on its own bearings you may have to be a bit more ingenious. with the hub in a vice or on its final mounting if you are brave enough to go that far before coil tests.


Again sticking the outer part of the coil top a bit of wood and clamping it should work.


I don't recommend this but I have often just held the coil in place by hand with the thing spinning in a lathe, even if it touches the magnets it doesn't usually come to any harm but don't blame me if it goes seriously wrong.


I think everyone comes up with their own method of doing these things, some will go to great lengths to devise something quite refined such as holes in a bit of plywood that you can try various coils in.


I have to confess that I can calculate things near enough not to do this very often but it it wise for newcomers to do this especially if you have used a different grade of magnet from a specified design.

Flux

« Last Edit: January 06, 2008, 09:18:31 AM by Flux »

Flux

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Re: Little help wanted
« Reply #14 on: January 06, 2008, 09:29:00 AM »
Lots of good stuff on the internet, mostly here, Scoraigwind, Windstuffnow, thebackshed.com, Windchasers and a lot of individual well documented projects such as Sparweb and others if you can find them.


Beware there is an order of magnitude more sites out there that spout absolute crap so you have to sort the sheep from the goats.


Flux

« Last Edit: January 06, 2008, 09:29:00 AM by Flux »

wooferhound

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Re: Little help wanted
« Reply #15 on: January 06, 2008, 10:10:46 AM »
Here is a picture of a electric coil winder that I made.

under the coil winder is a piece of wood with an openended round hole in it.

This is the jig that I used to hold the test coil in the magnet rotors.

Just tape a coil in there and go . . .



« Last Edit: January 06, 2008, 10:10:46 AM by wooferhound »

CmeBREW

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Re: Little help wanted
« Reply #16 on: January 06, 2008, 10:14:54 AM »
I just put a layer of masking tape around the coil and tape it to a small piece of 1/4" plywood attached to one of the stator mounting bolts to do the test coil.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2008, 10:14:54 AM by CmeBREW »

CmeBREW

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Re: Little help wanted
« Reply #17 on: January 06, 2008, 10:18:17 AM »
Sorry,,,forgot the picture




I love tape---where would we be without it.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2008, 10:18:17 AM by CmeBREW »

TheCasualTraveler

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Re: Little help wanted
« Reply #18 on: January 06, 2008, 11:15:56 AM »
     Correct me if I'm wrong otherpower forum people, but before you buy magnets remember what it says on this website, "It's wise to invest in strong magnets" I would say from my limited experiance that the minimum size you want is something like  1" x 2" x 1/2 found on this site or the wedge magnets on windstuffnow.com or maybe 1 1/2" or 2" round. The first magnets I bought were 1" x 1/2" x 1/4" neo's and their fine if you only want to light up an led or you just want to play with them. Again, correct me if I'm wrong but I would say you need to start with something similar to, Twelve - 1" x 2" x 1/2 neo's.

     Next I would spend $5 and get the little 3 pack of magnet wire from radio shack. That wire is NOT what you would use for a real machine but it is great for experimenting with winding coils and seeing how they perform so you understand better what your going for.

     Then you will need a steel disk to put the magnets on and a drill or other type motor to spin it with. After playing with various coils for a while you will probably be more confused than ever, be patient and it will soak in and start to clear up.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2008, 11:15:56 AM by TheCasualTraveler »

blueyonder

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Re: Little help wanted
« Reply #19 on: January 06, 2008, 12:24:29 PM »
 what a great post  10 out of 10 on this one for newbie and how to learn .

  and also a great response from other members.

  now flux if you could only start making plans and selling them i would put a order in now for a set.

  i already have a set of hugh piggots  plans there great.

  but ask a man with a  Lamborghini what he would like then he will say a porch
« Last Edit: January 06, 2008, 12:24:29 PM by blueyonder »

jaskiainen

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Re: Little help wanted
« Reply #20 on: January 06, 2008, 01:11:59 PM »
Hi all!


Here is what Ive covered so far.

I calculatetd the power available from the wind and multiplied it by 0,20.

I was kinda hoping to get that much efficiency out of it


So the results are in here:



  1. ,5 feet prop #1
  2. ,0 feet prop #2
  3. ,5 feet prop #3
  4. ,0 feet prop #4
  5. ,5 feet prop #5
  6. ,0 feet prop #6


                                      WATTS

 WIND           #1         #2         #3         #4         #5         #6

 9,00 mph      14,1W      16,8W      19,7W      22,8W      26,2W      29,9W


  1. ,25 mph      27,6W      32,7W      38,5W      44,6W      51,2W      58,4W
  2. ,50 mph      47,7W      59,6W      66,5W      77,1W      88,6W     100,9W
  3. ,75 mph      75,8W      89,9W     105,6W     122,5W     140,6W     160,2W
  4. ,00 mph     113,1W     134,1W     157,7W     182,8W     209,9W     239,1W


My target was around 200 watts and still quite small mill

so I think I will give it a go with 7 feet prop.


If there is anyone who can tell me that Im not hoping too much of it?


Next part I think is to select the rotor size and proper magnets for it.

So Ill just learn more about it and come back to You afterwards...


See you

« Last Edit: January 06, 2008, 01:11:59 PM by jaskiainen »

hvirtane

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Re: Little help wanted
« Reply #21 on: January 06, 2008, 04:06:34 PM »
Hi,


if your prop will be reasonable well made, you can calculate the approximate power:


P = 0,15 x (DxD) x (VxVxV)


Where D is the diameter of the prop, V is the wind speed. You will give D in meters and V in m/s, P will be in Watts (W).


If you want 200 W in 6 m/s, you'll need about 2,5 m prop.


You might learn a lot, if you'll see 'Windstuff Ed's 500 W wind machine at www.windstuffnow.


http://www.windstuffnow.com/main/builders_corner.htm


You might buy some parts ready made from him or from somebody else, so you don't need to make yourself everything.


- Hannu

« Last Edit: January 06, 2008, 04:06:34 PM by hvirtane »

wooferhound

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Re: Little help wanted
« Reply #22 on: January 06, 2008, 04:10:37 PM »
Maybe we should make a "Read Me First" section in the FAQs that covers the very essential basics.


Magnets and mag Circuits

Coils and wire

Prop Rotors and Blades

Towers and Anchors

etc.

« Last Edit: January 06, 2008, 04:10:37 PM by wooferhound »

kurt

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Re: Little help wanted
« Reply #23 on: January 06, 2008, 04:30:21 PM »
woofer you are and editor you should have the ability to write and post articles  to the FAQs section knock yourself out see me in irc and i will explain how to do it if need be. i have written a few but i kinda burned out on it.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2008, 04:30:21 PM by kurt »

wooferhound

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Re: Little help wanted
« Reply #24 on: January 06, 2008, 04:46:38 PM »
I'm On It . . .
« Last Edit: January 06, 2008, 04:46:38 PM by wooferhound »

jaskiainen

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Re: Little help wanted
« Reply #25 on: January 07, 2008, 09:25:02 AM »
Hi Hannu!


I dont wanna buy any ready made parts from others, because I do this for a fun

and educational reasons.

Like Arnold Edinborough said:"Curiosity is the very basis of education and if you tell me that curiosity killed the cat, I say only the cat died nobly."


And yes, 2.5m prop should do, but then again Im not searching 200W from that low

winds. Im aware that my gen wont put out that much power from lighter winds, like

5-6 m/s. Im aiming around 200W from 8m/s winds. And maybe I can come up with even

a bit smaller prop. That 200W was somekinda goal, but I can manage with litte less.


Best regards

« Last Edit: January 07, 2008, 09:25:02 AM by jaskiainen »