Author Topic: iron cores in stator on axial flux pma????  (Read 10225 times)

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kd5und

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iron cores in stator on axial flux pma????
« on: January 08, 2008, 05:49:33 AM »
im new to this and trying to learn all i can before i start my project

would adding iron cores in the windings of the stator have a positive or a negetive effect on a axial pma. i do understand that this would induce some cogging
« Last Edit: January 08, 2008, 05:49:33 AM by (unknown) »

Flux

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Re: iron cores in stator on axial flux pma????
« Reply #1 on: January 08, 2008, 02:04:53 AM »
Whether it is axial or radial doesn't really enter into the argument, but iron cored stators are more of a challenge with axial construction.


All Iron cored stators have iron loss and it will reduce low wind performance but you will almost certainly get more at the high wind end for a given cost of magnet. Cogging can be avoided but it is not easy to get 100% freedom from it without extreme care.


I suspect what you are thinking of is adding bits of iron in the holes of the common dual rotor axial and that is not a good idea. If you must go for an iron core then it is silly to have 2 air gaps. Also the forces on the stator will be so great that the simple resin casting may not be strong enough to survive.


Either go for a sensible iron cored design or stick to a dual rotor air gap machine. If you must go for an iron core then it is far better to stick to radial.


Flux

« Last Edit: January 08, 2008, 02:04:53 AM by Flux »

kd5und

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Re: iron cores in stator on axial flux pma????
« Reply #2 on: January 08, 2008, 04:07:55 PM »
thanks for the info! i take it that the iron cores in a radial machine serve the same purpose as the iron backing plate on the rotor of an axial machine in that it caps the mag flux and contains it within the machine? and if my theory is correct and from what i understand in your explination then in a dual rotor axial system the flux is contained between the two rotors and thus no need for the iron cores in the stator?????? Just kinda going out on a limb here so please correct any of my theory.. thanks for all your help!!
« Last Edit: January 08, 2008, 04:07:55 PM by kd5und »

joestue

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Re: iron cores in stator on axial flux pma????
« Reply #3 on: January 08, 2008, 07:44:40 PM »
Keep in mind that the only advantage that an iron cored machine has is cost.

Most people here spend $150-400 on magnets to achieve a flux density of .4 to .8 T.


A slotless strip wound iron core is going to double the generated voltage and power, because the toroidal windings of a NN machine will have 2 times the flux traveling through the coil, as compared to a lap wound air cored PMA.


If you want to experiment i highly recommend you build a slotless toroidal PMA from a small (100-400 watt) toroidal transformer. The iron will lend itself to a slotless design effortlessly. You will have very low iron loss in a slotless design due to the iron being magnetized in the same direction it was designed to be.

I also recommend that you cast or machine your own pole pieces, to allow for varying magnetic 'width'.

Due to the air gap of say 3-5 mm, start with ceramic magnets, as stronger ones may saturate the iron core.


Iron losses generally increase with the frequency to the 1.6 to 2nd power.

The idea that iron loss will affect low end wind power is bull.

cogging will stop the machine in low wind, but we're talking about watts of loss, not 100's of watts lost to 60% effichient air cored machine.


You are also looking at hundreds of pounds of axial attraction :)


more info:

http://www.nrel.gov/docs/legosti/fy98/24996.pdf

http://www.ee.kth.se/php/modules/publications/reports/2002/IR-EE-EME_2002_011.pdf

http://www.elkraft.ntnu.no/eno/Papers2003/Stev-NewZealand.pdf

http://www.ece.wisc.edu/~lipo/2004pubs/2004_10.pdf

http://edu.lut.fi/LutPub/web/isbn9522140309.pdf

« Last Edit: January 08, 2008, 07:44:40 PM by joestue »
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kd5und

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Re: iron cores in stator on axial flux pma????
« Reply #4 on: January 08, 2008, 08:52:06 PM »
im still new to this so i am still digesting all the info but as far as steel goes and the cost there of i work in one of the largest sheetmetal shops on NE oklahoma so the cost of laminate is no issue.  so other than dealing with a little cogging i have nothing to loose? anyway ill chew on the info some more and get back with ya when it sokes in


thanks a bunch

« Last Edit: January 08, 2008, 08:52:06 PM by kd5und »

Flux

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Re: iron cores in stator on axial flux pma????
« Reply #5 on: January 09, 2008, 01:56:37 AM »
You are basically correct that the dual rotor machine does have a closed magnetic circuit. The air gap is much wider than with a slotted or toothed core where the windings are wound in slots, so typically you will get about half the flux density in the gap compared with a slotted core. This type of machine has only become possible with the introduction of neo and samarium cobalt magnets.


Now to the issues that joestue raises. He is referring to rather specialist machines which are somewhere between a conventional slotted core and the true air gap ironless machine. If you are new to this then they may be well outside your range for a first attempt. The toroidal slotless machines are a good compromise between the conventional core and the air gap machine and if used with good quality low loss strip wound toroids they should perform well.Being slotless the air gap is still large compared with the conventional slotted core which keeps the iron well below saturation and the core loss is not a big issue.They have been used for years by some wind turbine manufacturers.


I have used slotless radial designs which are a single sided version of the same thing.


If you can get the required high quality core material and can solve the winding and stator support problems associated with these then it may be a way to go, but I wouldn't consider it to be a beginners project unless you have a lot of experience constructing similar things.


As for iron loss not being an issue then I would accept that slotless iron cored machines well constructed will have an iron loss low enough not to be worth worrying about. This is not true of conventional slotted cores when worked at normal flux density, the loss from them is not negligible.If you live in a windy area then it may be of no consequence but if you want to extract power from 7mph winds then unless you use excellent core material and wide air gaps and relatively low flux then your iron loss will defeat you.


Poor starting of slotted iron cored machines in low winds is as much a problem of iron loss as cogging. Careful design can eliminate cog or reduce it to a point where it doesn't affect start up but it still will not pull out of stall until you develop more power than the iron loss.


If you are in a good wind area then any form of iron cored machine will do the job. If you want to use a slotted core then radial is the better choice and is normally the only option as you have plenty of motor cores to choose from.


If you can produce your own core then the outer magnet rotor radial ( drum type) is a better arrangement for wind as there is more room for magnets and no danger of them flying off.


The drum type slotless machine is a good one and is better cooled than the dual rotor, it has low enough iron loss not to worry you but if you mess up the design it is a rewind, you can't play with the air gap.


For axials the slotless single rotor is possible but core material is not normally available cheap, with poor core material it is very poor. The axial construction virtually forces you yo use a winding that has spaces in it unwound so copper use is not as good.


Slotted axials are very difficult and seem too much effort for the results you get and again core material is a big issue.


Toroidals are specialist things capable of excellent results if you can get good core material.


If you choose anything other than a motor conversion ( radial slotted) or a dual rotor you will be more or less on your own so you have to decide whether your design and construction ability is up to this as a first attempt.


Nothing new under the sun, all done before the turn of the last century. Materials and manufacturing issues have dictated the trend over the last 100 years, but materials change so it is worth keeping a n eye on the old ideas, but for a first attempt it may be wise to stick to something conventional so that you can get help from others.


Flux

« Last Edit: January 09, 2008, 01:56:37 AM by Flux »

kd5und

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Re: iron cores in stator on axial flux pma????
« Reply #6 on: January 09, 2008, 02:55:54 AM »
all verry great advise flux. i seen in some of the literature that it refers to the core material as M19 silicon steel..at my shop i have access to M19 & M36 material in 24ga 10 foot X 3 foot sheets.  which material would be better suited? As far as my experience i have none in building wind generators but i am a ham radio operator with experience in electronics and im finding that a lot of the therory closely ties to that of building power transformers at least from what i can understand so far. its been a long time since ive brushed up on inductace theory but i will blow the dust off those old books and brush up


what got me started is about a month ago we had a bad ice storm here in oklahoma and it took out the power to most of tulsa for about 2 weeks (that sucked). I bolted a chevy alternator to my 3 1/2HP lawnmower and ran that into a 12v marine bettery to power 2 400 watt inverters and that barely got me through but i still lost all the food in the fridge and freezer.  That on to of every time i turn around i here about anouther rate hike and cause of the storm their talking about raising rates again.


all your help is verry much appreciated

« Last Edit: January 09, 2008, 02:55:54 AM by kd5und »

ghurd

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Re: iron cores in stator on axial flux pma????
« Reply #7 on: January 09, 2008, 03:12:06 AM »
The first link (fig 2) looks like the attraction would be huge.

The 2nd looks like a conversion, with tight T's.

The 3rd link looks like something Ed would make.

The 4th looks expensive, and I don't get how it has any gains.


The last one looks like somekind of hybred NASA threw out.

(Wholly Crap!  155 pages to explain it?  Spend $10 more on magnets, make the blades 6" longer.)


Anyway. I'll go with Mr Flux and Fungus. Iron losses add up.

Fungus went through a lot of trouble to be rid of it here...

http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2007/12/21/212956/25


""Iron losses generally increase with the frequency to the 1.6 to 2nd power.""

So the RPM should be as low as possible?


""Due to the air gap of say 3-5 mm, start with ceramic magnets, as stronger ones may saturate the iron core."" is a broad statement not knowing the magnets or materials.  My understanding is it will be hard for a slotless homebrew to saturate the core on a max 100-400W device.

I made an iron core machine with neos. 5mm gap had horrid output. The tighter the gap, the better the output^X.


I wonder what Peter will say.


And a slotless iron core will not cog.

Which is all I intended to say when I started.

G-

« Last Edit: January 09, 2008, 03:12:06 AM by ghurd »
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Flux

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Re: iron cores in stator on axial flux pma????
« Reply #8 on: January 09, 2008, 03:28:38 AM »
M19 is the better grade, but for a slotless core I suspect either would do.


Not sure what construction you are thinking of. Have a look at Windstuffnow, Ed has played about with iron cores quite a bit.


For a starter one off machine I doubt that it would be worth spending a lot of time on complicated core construction. Backing a single rotor with a good quality strip wound core would save yo a bit of magnet cost over a dual rotor but don't forget the serious attraction forces you have to deal with.


Yes transformers and alternators are very similar and any core material suitable for a low loss transformer would do.


If you do use an iron cored design, don't be tempted to try and add bits of iron to the common dual rotor used here, I just don't think you will get a good result, none of the commercial designs based on that concept got anywhere.


Must be your choice in the end.


Flux

« Last Edit: January 09, 2008, 03:28:38 AM by Flux »

kd5und

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Re: iron cores in stator on axial flux pma????
« Reply #9 on: January 09, 2008, 10:49:57 AM »
anouther thing i was considering was a laminated rotor backing of M19 instead of a solid steel one for the mags to sit on. what do ya think?
« Last Edit: January 09, 2008, 10:49:57 AM by kd5und »

Flux

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Re: iron cores in stator on axial flux pma????
« Reply #10 on: January 09, 2008, 11:26:41 AM »
No Never. There is no magnetic advantage, there is no electrical problem with eddy losses in the solid steel magnet discs.


There will be severe mechanical problems with the strength and stability of a laminated thing compared with a solid steel disc. Your disc has to support large mechanical forces from the prop thrust and gyroscopic forces as well as the considerable attractive force between the magnet rotor and the laminated stator.


It is bad enough supporting a laminated stator but that is stationary and you only have to contend with the attractive force and the torsional constraint.


Perhaps you find working with steel sheet easy compared with solid steel plate but this a case where it would cause more trouble than it is worth.


Just as a matter of interest is this sheet coated with some form of insulation, you will need something between layers to avoid eddies for a stator. Sometimes it comes per-coated in other cases the finished punchings are coated or blued after working. If you have bare sheet you will need to do something.


Flux

« Last Edit: January 09, 2008, 11:26:41 AM by Flux »

kd5und

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Re: iron cores in stator on axial flux pma????
« Reply #11 on: January 09, 2008, 03:53:56 PM »
working with hevier materials is no problem i just didnt know if there would be any efficency gain fron a laminated rotor core in theory and if so i was going to explore all my possibilities.  i have not started construction of a unit yet and dont plan to until i get a much better understanding of theory and construction techniques.


you guys are most helpful and i realy apreciate everything

« Last Edit: January 09, 2008, 03:53:56 PM by kd5und »

joestue

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Re: iron cores in stator on axial flux pma????
« Reply #12 on: January 09, 2008, 05:54:17 PM »
The simplest method is what you need to start from.


buy a 400-1250 VA toroidal transformer on EBay for $ 10-50


the wire on it is already in the range you will want, 20 to 16 Ga (re-use it!)


buy 8 or 12 magnets for a 4 or 6 pole double sided machine


cut out 8 or 12 pole pieces from some steel scrap. 3-6 mm thickness range.


Wind the coils, you are looking at 12 to 24 sparate coils spaced evenly about the core. (in 3 phases)

« Last Edit: January 09, 2008, 05:54:17 PM by joestue »
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kd5und

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Re: iron cores in stator on axial flux pma????
« Reply #13 on: January 09, 2008, 10:25:30 PM »
I realy appreciate everyones help and the whole forum community. there is such a wealth of information here and I am so glad i come across this site!!!


I think I am going to go with the air core dual rotor design as a starter progect due to the initial cost of the magnets and the proven design.  I figure i can use the same rotors whe i build the iron core stator and i will try to document it well and report my results for everyone to benifet from (good or bad).  hopefuly i will learn a lot from the data collected from the 2 design and pass that on to everyone.


Thanks A million!!!!!!!

« Last Edit: January 09, 2008, 10:25:30 PM by kd5und »

marv

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Re: iron cores in stator on axial flux pma????
« Reply #14 on: January 10, 2008, 05:58:42 PM »
Here is a couple of pics of a 21" silicon steel stator I built a while back.

I'm still working on a variable pitch rotor for it.

Marv.






« Last Edit: January 10, 2008, 05:58:42 PM by marv »

joestue

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Re: iron cores in stator on axial flux pma????
« Reply #15 on: January 25, 2008, 01:00:48 PM »
Excelent Work Marv.


72 slots and 24 magnets?

Is it full pitched?


how did you get the slots cut?

« Last Edit: January 25, 2008, 01:00:48 PM by joestue »
My wife says I'm not just a different colored rubik's cube, i am a rubik's knot in a cage.