Author Topic: Lost again, wire size?  (Read 1116 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

hamitduk

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 93
Lost again, wire size?
« on: October 26, 2008, 07:00:42 PM »
OK, I have read a lot and there are a lot of opinions on wire sizes, but it looks like most is from experience, one is built it blows up and you increase the wire size.  This works, but I need a bit more.  Can I base the wire size of the coil off of the load capabilities of the wire. So if the unit was to make 1K, each coil in a 3 phase need to handle 333watts, so I need to figure out the voltage needed, figure out wraps, then length of wire, that will give me the resistance and that will allow me to calculate the amperage and then the wire sizes? And of course the mood of Zephyrus?



Am I close?  Help?



http://www.otherpower.com/images/scimages/11555/180px_VarsaviaPalazzo4VentiVento1.jpg



P.S. how do you insert a JPG here?
« Last Edit: October 26, 2008, 07:00:42 PM by (unknown) »

Flux

  • Super Hero Member Plus
  • *******
  • Posts: 6275
Re: Lost again, wire size?
« Reply #1 on: October 26, 2008, 03:04:49 PM »
" Can I base the wire size of the coil off of the load capabilities of the wire"


Yes of course you can if you know what the wire is capable of. The snag is that wire of this type doesn't really have a rating. A few feet of straight wire in air will carry many times that of the same wire wound into a coil and covered in resin.


For conventional things like transformers and motors there are reasonably well known factors but again the duty cycle changes things. Transformers for welding may be rated for 5 times that of one running continuously.


With wind the normal duty cycle is fairly low but with strange methods of construction such as the axial machines you are into new territory. The cooling effect of the wind is also a variable and not much serious research seems to have been done about it.


It seems fairly well established from existing work that these machines will run under wind conditions with an efficiency of 50%. Some are running down to about 40% but that is pushing your luck.


It so happens that for a 3:1 range of wind speed and an efficiency of 50% you are just about on the point of stalling so that is a good compromise to aim for. Basing your cut in at 7 mph and full continuous load at something over 21 mph will give you a good range. You will have to furl probably not much over 25mph if the peaks are not to give you excess stator heating. Winding for better than 50% and adding line resistance to drop it to 40-50% gives a more robust design and you may be able to furl at perhaps 30mph.


If you are good enough to design within these limits then heating should be manageable.


You end up with a cheaper design if you reach 50% at less than 3 times cut in and that can give a satisfactory result in low wind areas as long as you can furl reliably below 20mph. It can be done but not with the conventional tail weight and angles used commonly.


This doesn't answer your question directly but there is enough information here combined with other stuff covered previously to design everything but you would need to have a really good grasp of things to do it.


In reality how hard you can push the wire depends on the life expectancy you can tolerate. If it must last forever then you will need lower output ratings than normally achieved here. If you can live with a life of a few years then some of the designs are close to this. Wind conditions are also a factor, the duty cycle in low wind areas is much less demanding than that for a really windy site free of turbulence where when hard furling it may exceed 50%.


Flux

« Last Edit: October 26, 2008, 03:04:49 PM by Flux »

hamitduk

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 93
Re: Lost again, wire size?
« Reply #2 on: October 26, 2008, 07:40:04 PM »
Just to touch on a few points while there still hot in my only brain cell, I understand furling, but is it to save the Blade or the stator or both.


Your use of Efficiency is confusing to me what do you mean, also the use of 3:1 this is high wind speed to low (CUT)?,


Am I good enough, good question, If I can get a good enough understanding of what has been done and what are the current norms, I think I can.


Thank I do look forward to your comments

« Last Edit: October 26, 2008, 07:40:04 PM by hamitduk »

Flux

  • Super Hero Member Plus
  • *******
  • Posts: 6275
Re: Lost again, wire size?
« Reply #3 on: October 27, 2008, 02:37:42 AM »
The power in the wind increases with wind speed cubed. If you design a machine to survive 90 mph running at full power it will do nothing in light winds. If you design it to work well in low winds it can't hope to be left working at full power in high winds, the alternator will not be able to load it and will burn out. The inability to load the blades will result in high speed and eventual destruction.


Furling is needed to protect both cases. Furling works best to protect the alternator and if the alternator is powerful then furling to protect it saves everything. If the alternator is the weaker link you need to be much more careful about the furling as the blades will be running clear of stall and you have far more power to get rid of for the same wind speed. Furling can still work but the things need to be set up differently.


With some types of alternator that reactance limit you won't damage the alternator and then you need to set the furling as if the alternator was unloaded and that is more tricky but possible. This type of machine is intrinsically safe. Normal machines when set up properly are safe on load. With loss of load the furling may not be adequate to protect the blades so don't let the load come off.


If you use a highly efficient alternator the thing will increase load so quickly with increasing rpm that the blades will be held at virtually constant speed and will stall. The power produced will not rise much above cut in and it may never need furling for protection but the performance will be dreadful.


To keep the prop efficiency at maximum the blade speed needs to track wind speed and unless you have some clever scheme the only way you can achieve this is to reduce the electrical efficiency ( in the alternator or the wiring to it).


If you start with a cut in at 7 mph  and you rely on electrical inefficiency to let the speed rise you keep the prop efficiency up but you loose power from the electrical losses. It is a tricky compromise to get the best overall result from the gain in prop efficiency and the loss from the electrical side.


The best starting point is to start with the blades running as fast as possible at cut in consistent with producing useful power. ( tsr above prop design figure). The tsr will fall rapidly as the alternator loads the prop in higher winds. At 3 times cut in wind speed the ideal prop will be running at 3 times cut in speed but it will still not be hard stalled if you let it drop to twice cut in speed. Any significant loading beyond this will stall it and power will drop rapidly.


That is why I suggest you aim for about 50% electrical efficiency in wind speeds about 3 times cut in. At this point you are seeing very useful power and without a costly oversized alternator you will need to be furling soon anyway. By getting a run at it at the bottom end with a high tsr at cut in you reach the stage that you need to think about furling at something like 25mph. These wind speeds are not met often in normal sites and you loose very little energy capture by furling at this speed.


Elsewhere here I have dealt with the design to achieve this compromise, you can predict the alternator output into a battery at different speeds from the cut in speed and the winding resistance but unfortunately this information is scattered throughout many replies and I can't link you directly to it.


The only thing that is not easily predicted is the stator temperature rise. I find that others seem to survive with about 50% efficiency at furling point but the temperatures will be high and you are looking at class H winding conditions and the potting materials are not class H but with the duty cycle of wind power it seems to work.


Flux

« Last Edit: October 27, 2008, 02:37:42 AM by Flux »

wooferhound

  • SuperHero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 2288
  • Country: us
  • Huntsville Alabama U.S.A.
    • Woofer Hound Sound & Lighting Rentals
Re: Lost again, wire size?
« Reply #4 on: October 27, 2008, 08:12:05 PM »
Here is how to put a picture into a story or comment

http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2008/8/21/31854/6586

« Last Edit: October 27, 2008, 08:12:05 PM by wooferhound »