Author Topic: If we use a DC motor for generator  (Read 2253 times)

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acidman

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If we use a DC motor for generator
« on: December 03, 2008, 03:51:28 PM »
Hey all i have question if we use a DC motor and make the shaft move with windmill rotor and blades and then connect the battery with same power terminal going in the motor, as soon as the battery is charged wont that make the motor moving with the battery power?


Please help me im new with this,


All your comments and suggestions are welcomed


Asad Naeem

« Last Edit: December 03, 2008, 03:51:28 PM by (unknown) »

spinningmagnets

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Re: If we use a DC motor for generator
« Reply #1 on: December 03, 2008, 10:11:03 AM »
Without diodes (a type of "one-way" electrical flow device) the wind-gen will spin as a motor by drawing power away from the battery. If wind is driving the output to a level that is higher than the battery, then the wind-gen will be charging the battery.


As the wind-gen begins spinning it will put out low voltage, and as its spins faster the voltage will rise. "Cut-in" is when it finally begins making more volts than the battery voltage, so it can begin charging.


You need to use a charge controller. This will allow the turbine to begin spinning without any load on it, it will direct charging to the battery when its spinning fast enough, and it will divert the charging to a dump load after the battery is full (to prevent overcharging the battery and damaging it)


If you don't have a dump load and the battery is full, removing all loads in a high wind can cause the turbine to spin too fast and self-destruct. Most successful designs use a "furling" mechanism that turns the turbine away from the wind when winds are too high.


I hope I said this right (I'm fairly new, also), best of luck.

« Last Edit: December 03, 2008, 10:11:03 AM by spinningmagnets »

CmeBREW

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Re: If we use a DC motor for generator
« Reply #2 on: December 03, 2008, 07:28:00 PM »
Yes, you must have a diode or multiple diodes hooked up in parallel to handle more amps.  


Personally, I like using a Bridge Rectifier (35 amp max surge) which has 4 diodes inside it.

They sell them here for a great price:


http://www.forcefieldmagnets.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=22_30&products_id=98


With a DC motor as a generator , "Ghurd" shows the best way to hook the Dc motor/generator up to handle TWICE the amps. (The top diagram is best)


http://www.fieldlines.com/comments/2007/11/2/125952/968/1


Also screw the rectifier to a piece of aluminum as a heat sink and use 'heatsink compound grease' inbetween.


Hope it helps.

« Last Edit: December 03, 2008, 07:28:00 PM by CmeBREW »

valterra

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Re: If we use a DC motor for generator
« Reply #3 on: December 03, 2008, 09:22:10 PM »
Simple answer:  Yes and No.


The wind and battery will spin the blades in the SAME direction.


Hook up a battery to your motor, and your wind generator will spin like a fan... slower and slower until the battery is completely dead.


Think of the wind as a spare battery that only works when the wind blows.  If the wind has more power than your battery, then IT will spin the blades.  If it has less power than your battery, your battery will spin them.


Using the previous example, hooking in a diode keeps the real batteries from doing any of the work, which is what you want.

« Last Edit: December 03, 2008, 09:22:10 PM by valterra »

Flux

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Re: If we use a DC motor for generator
« Reply #4 on: December 04, 2008, 01:24:30 AM »
"You need to use a charge controller. This will allow the turbine to begin spinning without any load on it, it will direct charging to the battery when its spinning fast enough, and it will divert the charging to a dump load after the battery is full (to prevent overcharging the battery and damaging it)


If you don't have a dump load and the battery is full, removing all loads in a high wind can cause the turbine to spin too fast and self-destruct. Most successful designs use a "furling" mechanism that turns the turbine away from the wind when winds are too high."


You said you were new to this and invited comment, please don't take this as criticism but some of it is inaccurate.


You are right about the diode and it is the diode that lets the mill start without load and direct current to the battery when the mill volts exceeds battery volts. The charge controller has nothing to do with this.


The charge controller is intended to divert power to a dump load when the battery is fully charged as you stated.


If you don't have a dump load and the battery is full it doesn't remove all load from the turbine. What happens is that the battery still takes current but instead of charging it produces gas as an electrolytic cell, the voltage rises above nominal but with a sensible sized battery for the turbine it will not go wildly high, certainly never over 20v unless the battery is really tiny.


This will do nothing serious to the mill but it will shorten the life of the battery, waste water so you need to keep topping it up and heat it and produce lots of explosive gas.


If you keep doing this until you run the battery out of electrolyte then it will open circuit the mill but that is a long way down the line and it would need a fool to let things go that far.


There seems to be a lot of confusion about charge controllers. For tiny mills that have difficulty supplying the demand of daily loads you may not even need a charge controller ( a low volt disconnect may be more useful).


If you are about most of the time to look after the system you can often manage your load routine to use all the available power you collect and the only time you may need a charge controller is if you go away for a few days and you can't shut the mill down.


Charge controllers are more necessary where the system is not watched manually and no attempt is made to match your load use to wind conditions. They are more necessary as the mill output becomes larger than your daily use, especially if supplemented with solar. They are essential for unattended systems.


I mention this simply because they have only become available in the last few years and people managed with wind power long before electronics was sophisticated enough to build such things.


Flux

« Last Edit: December 04, 2008, 01:24:30 AM by Flux »

spinningmagnets

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Re: If we use a DC motor for generator
« Reply #5 on: December 04, 2008, 09:04:20 AM »
Thank you Flux for your patience and helpfulness!


I only wished to be helpful with some of the simpler newbie questions that I "thought" I understood.


Now, about those wooden disc magnet rotors...

« Last Edit: December 04, 2008, 09:04:20 AM by spinningmagnets »

acidman

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Re: If we use a DC motor for generator
« Reply #6 on: December 04, 2008, 11:20:42 AM »
Thanks everyone it was really helpful all your comments.


One thing that i notice was to use diode to stop the electricity flowing backwards please also tell me how to use the diode and the purpose of the rectifier.


Thanks again everyone.

« Last Edit: December 04, 2008, 11:20:42 AM by acidman »

ghurd

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Re: If we use a DC motor for generator
« Reply #7 on: December 04, 2008, 12:01:41 PM »
A diode is a rectifier.

If the generator has a chance of making much current (over about 3A), it is cheaper to use a common large bridge rectifier than a large diode.

A bridge rectifier is a circuit made of 4 diodes.

My sketch (CmeBREW's link) shows how to connect it using 2 diodes in parallel.


The output polarity will depend on the direction the motor is turning.

Meaning you can't count on red being positive.

G-

« Last Edit: December 04, 2008, 12:01:41 PM by ghurd »
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acidman

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Re: If we use a DC motor for generator
« Reply #8 on: December 04, 2008, 12:08:41 PM »
Thanks G-


but i there anything that can be done to make the generator bi-directional- by placement of the magnets or that can be handled by the charge controller..


thanks


Acidman

« Last Edit: December 04, 2008, 12:08:41 PM by acidman »

ghurd

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Re: If we use a DC motor for generator
« Reply #9 on: December 04, 2008, 12:27:28 PM »
You are confused about something, somewhere.

A DC motor as a generator has brushes and puts out DC.

The magnets are already in it.


Not sure what you mean by bi-directional, but yes, it can be done.

Both DC motor wires go to the bridge rectifier ~ terminals (one iwre per terminal).

The bridge + goes to the battery +.

The bridge - goes to the battery -.

It has more losses.

G-

« Last Edit: December 04, 2008, 12:27:28 PM by ghurd »
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acidman

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Re: If we use a DC motor for generator
« Reply #10 on: December 04, 2008, 12:34:58 PM »
Sorry G- u got me wrong


No i know that the DC motor already has permanent magnets in it


I was worried that if when the wind is making the rotor rotate clockwise the positive will be positive and neg will be but as far as i have learnt when the rotor is moving anticlock the positive will turn neg and neg to pos. Im not sure if im right.


Acidman

« Last Edit: December 04, 2008, 12:34:58 PM by acidman »

ghurd

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Re: If we use a DC motor for generator
« Reply #11 on: December 04, 2008, 01:11:16 PM »
clockise, etc, depends on the motor.


Is this for a windmill?

It won't turn backwards often or fast.  Use high voltage (200V) diodes or bridges and it is nothing to worry about.

G-

« Last Edit: December 04, 2008, 01:11:16 PM by ghurd »
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Flux

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Re: If we use a DC motor for generator
« Reply #12 on: December 05, 2008, 12:56:36 AM »
I can't think of any useful wind turbine that will reverse its rotation, the normal issue is preventing the battery rotating the motor when the wind drops ( and it goes the same way).


A diode will prevent the motoring. If you want to charge with the thing rotating either way ( tidal power or something) then as Ghurd said using a bridge rectifier with the motor connected to the ac terminals will solve the problem ( at the cost of an extra diode drop).


Flux

« Last Edit: December 05, 2008, 12:56:36 AM by Flux »

chubbytrucker01

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Re: If we use a DC motor for generator
« Reply #13 on: December 12, 2008, 11:56:05 PM »
Doesn't a dc motor produce ac electricity when it is rotated? So it doesn't matter what lead is red or black because you have to rectify it to get dc? So because it's producing ac it produces the same ac electricity no matter which direction its rotated?
« Last Edit: December 12, 2008, 11:56:05 PM by chubbytrucker01 »

acidman

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Re: If we use a DC motor for generator
« Reply #14 on: December 13, 2008, 03:59:25 AM »
As far as i understand there in not much of a difference between a DC motor and and a wind turbine both use permanent magnets to generate electricity than why would a turbine generate DC voltage and DC motor alternating current AC voltage. i dont have a electrical background so please dont get offended if my question is stupid.


Acidman

« Last Edit: December 13, 2008, 03:59:25 AM by acidman »

ghurd

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Re: If we use a DC motor for generator
« Reply #15 on: December 13, 2008, 03:31:57 PM »
The DC motors we usually talk about here put out DC.

I don't want to confuse anyone.  It is almost AC deep inside, but the brushes always catch the same polarity.  Meaning a brushed DC motor puts out straight DC.  The diode keeps battery power from flowing into the windmill on breezeless nights.


A standard fieldlines home made permanent magnet alternator windmill makes 3 phase AC.  The diodes convert the 3 phase AC to DC.  They also stop battery power from flowing into the coils.


G-

« Last Edit: December 13, 2008, 03:31:57 PM by ghurd »
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Madscientist267

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Re: If we use a DC motor for generator
« Reply #16 on: December 13, 2008, 06:06:38 PM »
Let me take a stab at this . . .


AC Motor, DC Motor, Alternator, DC Generator.


They all have common elements:


The rotor (the part that turns), The stator (the part that doesnt turn), and some way of making magnetic fields interact with each other inside.


Then it branches off, motors and generators (an alternator is a generator that produces AC, and just the term generator by itself generally refers to DC)


Motors produce mechanical output from an electrical input. Electrical current flows through the coils of wire, make a magnetic field, which interacts with another magnetic field inside the motor, making the rotor turn.


Generators produce electrical output from a mechanical input.


Physical operation is identical, in principle, which is why a motor can be used as a generator.


It is HOW the magnetic fields interact and how the electrical energy is extracted that makes them different.


DC Generator:


In a PM DC generator, the magnets (usually) are stationary, and the coils of wire are on the rotor (or armature). As a coil begins to pass by one of the magnets, it is switched 'into' the circuit by what is called a commutator. An identical process happens with another coil, with opposite magnetic field (and subsequently the opposite electrical potential), which is collected at the other side of the commutator, and brought out to the other terminal. These coils are connected together, and work additively to create the output that you get at the terminals.


At the point in rotation that the coils are no longer producing usable power, the contacts for those coils on the commutator are also leaving the brushes (the stationary part of the commutator that connects to the terminals).


Think of a commutator as just one big automatic rotating switch. Each coil is physically and electrically arranged inside the generator so that a coil is only connected as it passes by a magnet, and each one that gets connected has current flowing through it only one way. The result is the output power flows in only one direction, dependent on the direction of the rotation of the rotor.


There is little physical difference (for these purposes) between a DC motor and a DC generator. The difference that does exist is primarily in timing of the commutator, something you don't really need to worry about to understand the theory.


AC Alternator:


In a PMA, the coils are stationary instead, and the magnets move past the coils. There is no mechanical switching to connect and disconnect the coils at the appropriate time. To get DC from an alternator, you must use rectifiers (AKA diodes) to get the current flowing one way. Usually, to maximize efficiency, a set of diodes arranged in a special way (called a bridge rectifier) is used. This utilizes both the positive and the negative current flow in the coils, and converts them both to positive.


In the case of an alternator, the 'switching' is done electronically, rather than mechanically, and can be done anywhere (that it is practical) in the circuit. This is one of the reasons (among many) that they are preferred for wind - The components are out in the elements. Mechanical devices complicate maintenance and lead to early failure. A PMA alternator only really has 1 moving part (if you exclude the bearings); the rotor.


Hopefully this helped you understand a little better. If you have questions about an individual component mentioned here, punch it into Google. These are all basic concepts that are well explained all over the internet.


Steve

« Last Edit: December 13, 2008, 06:06:38 PM by Madscientist267 »
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acidman

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Re: If we use a DC motor for generator
« Reply #17 on: December 20, 2008, 01:52:21 AM »
thanx for the reply can you help me with the type of DC motor to buy so that i dont have to do much alteration if any required.


Thanx Acidman

« Last Edit: December 20, 2008, 01:52:21 AM by acidman »