Author Topic: Confused  (Read 2919 times)

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prowrecker

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Confused
« on: January 27, 2009, 04:33:30 PM »
I have been looking into alternative power sources for my new for about a year now. At first I wanted to try and go off-grid, but I realize that really isn't feasible. Looked into solar but feel that the cost doesn't out weigh the benefits. (not very efficent) My only other option is wind. Well, I have to admit that I am more confused than when I started. I first looked at three large 2000kw gen., but they require a min. of 12 mile winds to generate power. After looking at wind studies for my area, we don't have that. This system would take me off grid and the cost of around $30,000.00-$35,000.00 complete is not to bad. I figure it would take around 12-15 years to cover all cost and maintence. After that, free power. Not to bad, but not in my area. Now I am looking to suppliment my power needs. After reading some of the posts, I feel that a 120v system would best suit my needs, not sure since I keep changing what I want. Partly because I would prefer to be off-grid. So my question is this, can someone recommend any books that will explain putting together a system, how to determine what system is best for your needs and if you need batteries and how many? I ask about batteries, since one of plans would be a basic system to power just lights and low power items, such as radio. A very basic system for my shop up to a system to run my whole shop, welder, air compressor, etc. This is not a commercial shop just my shop on the farm. It is about 2500sqft. Sorry about the long message, but very confused. Thanks.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2009, 04:33:30 PM by (unknown) »

sk windpirate

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Re: Confused
« Reply #1 on: January 27, 2009, 10:47:50 AM »
Hello confused.


Going off grid and keeping you 120 volts would be almost impossable. The wind would have to blow all the time. (And it don't).


12 to 15 years. "Then" free power? No. Your equipment will be out dated worn out by then.


What is answer?


It costs a lot of money to produce your own power. A lot more than you can buy it for. try to reduce your power needs first.


I use batteries, lots of then. and a good / big power inverter. At least i can store any power i might get at nigh/ day from my windmill. I can store any excess that is get from my solar panels, Note: "sunny days only". If i get a week of none of the above. then I need my back up.

My motor driven DC arc welder. That charges my batteries. and that costs me money too.


thats why a do the GREEN thing in the first place.


I have to plan my power usage to the weather.


That keeps me busy just planning. and producing, That leaves no time for work. (Dam)


I'm conected to the mains. But i like the challange, Trying to keep the provider out of my pocket. You might start out with a small system and learn how to use it to your benifit and then expand from there.


Note: I keep all the power i produce, I'm not on a rid tie system. I don't belive it is worth it. "For me".  

« Last Edit: January 27, 2009, 10:47:50 AM by sk windpirate »

independent

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Re: Confused
« Reply #2 on: January 27, 2009, 12:25:17 PM »
How much electricity do you really need?
« Last Edit: January 27, 2009, 12:25:17 PM by independent »

SparWeb

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Re: Confused
« Reply #3 on: January 27, 2009, 12:55:19 PM »
Nobody should tell you what you need or what you want (although the government seems to).


Keep researching.  If you aren't satisfied by what you're seeing, it just means you're a tough customer to please.  Not everyone can live in the Techahapi Pass.


A subscription to HomePower magazine (or something equivalent for there are many), regularly browsing forums like this one, and talking to technical people who install this stuff, are just a start in figuring out how to get what you want, or better, what you need.


And, of course, reducing your consumption is always a wise move.

« Last Edit: January 27, 2009, 12:55:19 PM by SparWeb »
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independent

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Re: Confused
« Reply #4 on: January 27, 2009, 01:47:15 PM »
What I mean is, have a look at your energy consumption broken down into Wh (Watt hours) or kWh (kilo Watt hours) per appliance averaged out over 24hrs. Figure out what it costs to make your own electricity for those appliances. Then weigh that against the difference in energy consumption for a truly energy efficient appliance in place of the one you own (think 4in insulation in a fridge for instance).


PS. once you've done that, it becomes painfully obvious that living off your own electricity production requires a totally different mindset and that the biggest savings in energy consumption to be made are in efficiency gains.

« Last Edit: January 27, 2009, 01:47:15 PM by independent »

DamonHD

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Re: Confused
« Reply #5 on: January 27, 2009, 01:50:34 PM »
Absolutely.


It's 5x to 10x cheaper to conserve than to microgenerate.


So you'll need to go and measure everything that you use for a start.  Read your meter(s) daily.  Here's my effort: http://www.earth.org.uk/saving-electricity.html#meter


We're all going to have to learn how to get by (but have the same fun!) on less energy: it's very hard to image have the same energy consumption with any renewable substitute (even nuclear) for fossil fuels.


Rgds


Damon

« Last Edit: January 27, 2009, 01:50:34 PM by DamonHD »
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independent

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Re: Confused
« Reply #6 on: January 27, 2009, 05:47:41 PM »
Not very clear sorry. One way to do this:


...energy consumption broken down into Wh (Watt hours) or kWh (kilo Watt hours) averaged out over 24hrs

"averaged out" should not be there--sorry


Is to work out how many hours an appliance is used for per day and then times that by the actual (measured) wattage used. The main problem with this approach is that fridges and freezers cycle on and off. Consumption varies over the seasons, amount of people opening and closing the fridge/freezer and so on.. (unless you use electric hot water fridge/freezers usually are the most electrically hungry appliances most people have)


A kWh is another term for the electricity supplier's "unit" rate here (probably everywhere). The amount is 1kW of electricity used for one hour. So, it's usually not difficult working out the total amount of kWhs ("units") per day.

« Last Edit: January 27, 2009, 05:47:41 PM by independent »

prowrecker

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Re: Confused
« Reply #7 on: January 28, 2009, 07:16:55 AM »
Yes, I understand that the wind doesn't blow all the time. As I said I have studied the wind charts for my area. As far as my pay back, here is what I have found, I can purchase three windmills with 80' towers for around $28,000.00, they are under warrentyfor 20 years. new heads are $4,000.00 each at todays price. Batteries, wire, invertors, etc. should be able to buy for for an additional $7,000.00. So let's go to the high side and say $40,000.00 for all. Now let's throw in $15,000.00 for maintence over the next fifteen years. Total $55,000.00. I figure my bill in the new house, 3000sqft ranch plus full walkout basement for a total of 6000sqft, plus a 2800sqft shop(personal use for farm) and four barns(mostly lights) will be about $350.00 to $450.00 a month. That comes to $63,000.00 over fifteen years!!!! a savings of $8,000.00!!!! After that I simply have maintence and upkeep. Over the next fifteen years technology will improve and costs will go down!!!!! No matter how you look at it, over the course of my remaining live time I will safe money and help the environment!!!!!! But this is all B.S. anyway since we agree that there is not sufficent wind for my needs. At this point I am wanting to cut my comsuption of power from the electric company. Not sure if it is worth the cost, but still lokking into it. Again, I amlooking for any good books that can show different systems and how to determine what your needs are. Thanks
« Last Edit: January 28, 2009, 07:16:55 AM by prowrecker »

prowrecker

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Re: Confused
« Reply #8 on: January 28, 2009, 08:05:05 AM »
Do you know of any good books that can help me figure this out??? You know, something that lists electrical items and amount of usage? Or do I have to look up every item to try and find that out? The first system I looked at was for a complete set-up, but now I am looking at setting up just my shop and only running a part of it threw the batteries. Lights, radios, etc. My bigger items such as air compressor, plasma cutter, welder, etc. would still be tied into the electric company. I figure something is better than nothing. The problem is I have been having a hard time finding anything out about what type of system(12, 24 or 48), how to set-up, what equipment I need, etc. I have found some info on voltage and it would seem that 24 or 48 is the best if you want to upgrade to a larger system in the future. But, again the info I am finding is not complete or talks over my head in technical. Hence the title of this listing, CONFUSED. I am new to this, and although I am not an activist for the environment, I do believe that we can and should look at other forms of fuel, with todays technology there is no excuse why we can't cut our consumption of fossil fuels in half!!!! It's just a mindset and we need to change it. We have tried to cut our usage down by using CFL bulbs, not leaving lights on, keeping the thermostat set low in winter and higher in summer, etc. In the new house we built thicker exterior walls for more insulation(we used the newer expanding foam), insulated interior walls, well insulated and ventilated attic, zoned heating and cooling, thermal windows, instant-on water heaters, etc. We started looking at going off-grid since the new house is very rural and it is going to cost around $30,000.00 to get electric to it. Why not spend the money and get something for it verses paying the money to the electric company just so I can send them a check every month!! Anyway, thanks and if can recommend any good books or websites that would be helpful. Paul
« Last Edit: January 28, 2009, 08:05:05 AM by prowrecker »

prowrecker

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Re: Confused
« Reply #9 on: January 28, 2009, 08:20:13 AM »
Thanks and I agree. The biggest problem I am having with my research is that I am not very good at it. When I do a search I get all kinds of info not related to what I want, too technical for me to figure out or just part of what I am looking for. So I'm not sure if a I am a tough customer or just stupid. I do know that I like to have all the info on all the systems. That way I can decide what system I want for now as well as what system will be best later. Let's face it, we will be using alternative sources of power in the not to distant future and I would prefer not to spend my money twice for the same or similar thing. Proper planning and consideration of ones needs now and in the future will also help cut down on energy thru less product manufacturing and waste. I will get down from my soapbox now. Thanks, Paul
« Last Edit: January 28, 2009, 08:20:13 AM by prowrecker »

independent

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Re: Confused
« Reply #10 on: January 28, 2009, 12:22:33 PM »
The easiest way is to by yourself a little digital Watt meter. There is something in the States called a Killawatt. I can buy something similar here for NZ$20, so not too expensive. They measure the amps, the Watts, give you an indication of the usage in terms of your unit (kWh) rate and tell you the appliance's Power Factor Correction. It just goes between the wall socket and the appliance.


Power Factor Correction is the difference between Watts and VA (Volts times Amps). The difference between real and measured power usage. Here (and I think everywhere), all but the major electricity uses are billed in Watts (not actual usage, VA).


Anyway, an hour roaming around your house with one of these devices will let you know what you are using. It will give you an idea of your actual usage. It will not help you to look at the Wattage ratings on the back of all your appliances/tools. Be aware that those little killawatt things have a maximum rating of only (guessing! because I don't have one) a dozen or so amps, so read the instructions first (but I am sure you won't be able to put it on a plasma cutter :-). With something that thirsty, just turn off everything in your house (including fridge and freezer and electric hot water cylinder) and take a note of your units on your electricity meter on the power board and use your plasma cutter for an hour. It will give you a very rough idea, but it's something.


You might need some time working out the fridge/freezer usage, it will obviously cycle on and off and you will need to average this out. The other option is to wire up a Dead-man's-cord and stick an ammeter in the middle of it (only if you are proficient with doing such a thing, so I don't recommend doing this).


Is there a chance you have a stream on your property you are moving to? This would be the way to go, don't even need batteries (if the stream is not seasonal) if you have a good stream/river on your property. It would be worth developing that (getting someone to).. It's the most economical and powerful form of self generated electricity. Depending on what hydro was there, potentially you could run your whole workshop as well as your house off it.

« Last Edit: January 28, 2009, 12:22:33 PM by independent »

FishbonzWV

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Re: Confused
« Reply #11 on: January 28, 2009, 04:32:21 PM »
Google: John Whiles Code Corner.

Here's a system he goes into depth on.

http://photovoltaics.sandia.gov/docs/PDF/CodeCorner94.pdf

I printed it out and read it over and over.

Very good reading on his whole site.

Bonz
« Last Edit: January 28, 2009, 04:32:21 PM by FishbonzWV »
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prowrecker

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Re: Confused
« Reply #12 on: January 28, 2009, 05:47:47 PM »
Thanks, I will see about getting one. So do I take total watts per hour as my usage, let's say 800w and if a 2000w generator puts out 1000w in fair winds (Is that per hour?) is that how I determine the size I need? What about batteries? What is their discharge rate? What is the rate of charge? How do I figure how many I need? What about invertors? CRAP, this is alot of stuff to know.


I looked at hydro, all I can say is, WOW, I wish I had a water source. There are so many different systems out there for hydro that very inexpensive. Of course, I don't.


I need someone around that can sit down, drink a beer and talk. A book with pictures and explanations would help too.

« Last Edit: January 28, 2009, 05:47:47 PM by prowrecker »

prowrecker

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Re: Confused
« Reply #13 on: January 28, 2009, 06:09:52 PM »
Thanks for the link, for some reason I can't link to it. Keeps telling me can't load site. But I will keep trying.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2009, 06:09:52 PM by prowrecker »

independent

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Re: Confused
« Reply #14 on: January 28, 2009, 07:43:42 PM »
So, just looking at my little Watt meter when I start up the microwave with a cup of water in I see:


Watts, in this case 1200 or so

Amps, in this case 5.6 or so (230v power)

PFC, in this case from 80% to 93%


If I was to leave the thing plugged in I would have gotten a meaningful kWh reading. But I don't have to, I can work it out from the figures above. It would have taken 50 minutes at full power to get one whole kWhs worth usage (0.833 of an hour).


The PFC is a red herring in the example above as you don't pay for it on grid power as normal consumer. However, you do have to make it if you make your own.. (one of the few freebies left).


So, the first step is to work out your daily usage

The second step is to break down your usage by appliance. So, in the example above, even though the microwave is a 1200w device, I only use it twice in the morning for 30 secs or so. 1.2kW / 120 (30sec is 1/120 of an hour) =  0.01kWh or 0.01 "unit" used in a day for me to zap my coffee twice for 15sec.


AC fridge/freezers have massive start up current but taper off. Our fridge here does that, a couple/few thousand watt start up, then about 240w during usage. We are about to replace it with a 36w DC fridge!


Once you've done that for all of your appliances (you don't have to work out each appliance just leave the meter zeroed for 24hours on each appliance). Add all of the kWh for each appliance. It should be close to what your power board meter should be showing you after 24 hours.


Where I live we have our hot water on electricity. It is a new cylinder and is small and very well insulated. It is also put onto a separate meter and heated up at a low night-time rate (half daytime rate). That said we use 300 units a month. 10 a day. 10kWh of electricity. On average we are very low electricity users. 2/3 of that unit usage is the hot water cylinder usage, and ideally that would be solar hot water, and/or a wet back on a fire, but because of the lime in the water it makes solar hot water or even instant gas heated water problematic. 3.3kWh of electricity in a day for everything else.


So, that is usage..


If you are generating your own power, you have to make all of it, and there are many losses along the way. There are losses in the efficiency of storing the electricity. There are losses in converting the electricity from a DC battery bank. Losses in wiring.


But simply, if you have a 1200w wind generator that averages 200w every hour (0.2kWh) over 24 hours then you have to run for 5 hours to make 1kWh of electricity. However, that energy has to go into a battery bank, say a 90% efficient lead acid (PbA) battery and you run it into an inverter with %85 average efficiency then that 200w has turned into just over 150w of usable energy per hour to break even. Once this is factored in you have to pay for all of it too so that microwave which is basically 93% efficient (%93 PFC) then that is another loss. There are other losses as well, wiring between a low voltage battery bank and inverter can be significant. The battery will lose capacity every day, maybe 4% for good PbA. And batteries die! Wind generators die! From what I can gather here, a poll here on fieldlines, the average life expectancy for a home built genny is just over 1 year!


It is always cheaper to use grid electricity than to make it. Here we pay NZ23.8c for a unit of electricity. It's a lot. Our night-time rate is NZ13c. For me to seriously think about making electricity cheaper than that the unit rate (with solar) it would have to be 10x the price it is now.


Just figuring out what is using what is the best place to start and many $$ can be saved this way.

« Last Edit: January 28, 2009, 07:43:42 PM by independent »

Kwazai

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Re: Confused
« Reply #15 on: January 29, 2009, 06:40:38 AM »
This site at one time had cost figures with payback times. fyi.

Mike


http://www.solarhouse.com/index2.htm

« Last Edit: January 29, 2009, 06:40:38 AM by Kwazai »

prowrecker

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Re: Confused
« Reply #16 on: January 29, 2009, 09:19:29 AM »
WOW, I guess you've been doing this for a while. You seem to be very knowledgeable about this. So if I understand correctly, in your case above you use 10kWH a day and a 1200w genny, after all power drops, etc, will make about 125w an hour. So one 1200w genny will need to run about 8 hours to make 1kWH of power or 3kWH per day. So for you to be off grid you would need a min. of 4 gennies to cover your needs. Now, I assume that you are producing that power in average winds, say 12-13 miles an hour? Do I have it right? Thanks
« Last Edit: January 29, 2009, 09:19:29 AM by prowrecker »

prowrecker

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Re: Confused
« Reply #17 on: January 29, 2009, 09:26:02 AM »
Thanks for the link. A lot of good info. we really want to be as independent from the electric company as poss. without giving up out life style. I understand that that I am asking for a lot, but I feel that with the right research and not jumping into the first thing that appears to be right, we can find the right balance.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2009, 09:26:02 AM by prowrecker »

prowrecker

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Re: Confused
« Reply #18 on: January 29, 2009, 09:31:22 AM »
Hey, I tried the link at work and was able to get it. Printed it out, looks great! Thanks
« Last Edit: January 29, 2009, 09:31:22 AM by prowrecker »

independent

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Re: Confused
« Reply #19 on: January 29, 2009, 12:05:07 PM »
Just making it up as I go along. ;-)


We are on the grid, I have a smallish system at home for my own use (170w solar).


Also, on top of that we've been breaking down our grid usage for a year two. In NZ electricity has (approximately) doubled or tripled in cost over the last 5 years or so as the industry has been privatised with very little regulation, unlike the U.S. electricity power suppliers (from what I understand).


The point I am trying to make is it will cost much more to generate power than buy it if you have easy access to the grid. The savings are to be made in efficiency gains. A "lifestyle" is usually made up of wasted electricity and inefficient appliances.


Granted you have, what sounds like, a big workshop which probably makes you money. And, I guess all of these things are going to be a compromise but if you are going to be on the grid anyway, then why not get efficient?


Mind you with all that welding gear I bet you are itching to make a killer genny. If you are, have a look at your options for grid-tie. Some areas in the world the electricity providers have to buy your electricity if you make it (providing it is all up to the required standards). Some provide good rates, better than retail, some (like in NZ (again from what I know)) only pay you the wholesale rate. Some don't even want to buy it.. Saves on having batteries as your electricity goes straight into the grid. However, when the grid goes down, so do you..

« Last Edit: January 29, 2009, 12:05:07 PM by independent »

jonas302

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Re: Confused
« Reply #20 on: January 29, 2009, 09:42:04 PM »
Have you had a look at the mother site www.otherpower.com there is a lot of straitforward info there not as many opinions they are completly off grid with several machine tools they have also wrote a book and sell hugh piggots book which should help a lot


Also for conversation usage tracking ideas look at builditsolar.com tons of info there


Have you already ran the grid to your new house? 30000 would probly be a real good reason to be off grid!

« Last Edit: January 29, 2009, 09:42:04 PM by jonas302 »