Author Topic: Basic Alternator Question  (Read 4783 times)

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DanFord

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Basic Alternator Question
« on: March 30, 2009, 09:18:07 AM »
Hey people, new to the site, but love all the input and professionalism, i'm Australian, so forgive me if some of my measurements are out, i have converted them to inches so it's easier to answer


OK the question,


Am building a smaller wind turbine, with a 12.24" diameter stator, so far i am planning 12 magnets (1.4'x0.65'x0.4'), they have a pull strength of 13kg for 3mm mild steel, am planning on a 12V system, and 9 coils. And as far as i know, it's just a see how much space you have and guess a wire size?


The questions



  1. The wire size, the amount of turns, is it really just a trail and error kind of thing? If i have extra room is it better to get bigger magnets, or make the coils bigger?
  2. Is it better to have rectangular, square or circular magnets? My understanding is whatever fills more space in the centre of your coil, is that right?
  3. The coils, should the wire be all laid on top of itself, or can the depth be a couple of wires deep? (did that make sense), also will having a wider coil reduce efficiency?
  4. Probably a hard one, is the AWG relevant in Australia? If not is there a way to convert it?
  5. Anyone know how to convert pull strength to Tesla or Gauss?


Sorry if i am repeating the same questions over again, again really new to this!!!!


In advance thanks heaps!!!

« Last Edit: March 30, 2009, 09:18:07 AM by (unknown) »

Ekij

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Re: Basic Alternator Question
« Reply #1 on: March 30, 2009, 07:20:57 AM »
1] Wire diameter drive internal impedance and max current.

Bigger thickness of wire is better but consumes more space (restricts number of turns)


Voltage out is directly proportional to number of turns. More turns is more voltage is more power.


Clearly you have to balance number of turns with thickness. It appearst to be somwhat a trial and error process.



  1. ] I don't believe there is much in the shape of the magnet.
  2. ] You will need many coils that lie on top of each other. Coils may lie many deep. Coils with over a hundreds of turns (on a high voltage, low current alt) are not unusual.
  3. ] Google will show you many pages that convert AWG to meaninful units.
  4. ] sorry I don't.


Stronger magnets are better, but you need to do a practical test anyway, you can't design it all in theory.

« Last Edit: March 30, 2009, 07:20:57 AM by Ekij »

SparWeb

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Re: Basic Alternator Question
« Reply #2 on: March 30, 2009, 01:45:29 PM »
Building an alternator is a balancing act, so I can't answer questions 1, 2 and 3 separately without answering them all together.  The previous responder correctly pointed out that more turns give more volts output, but didn't add that too many turns can make an alternator deliver such high voltage that it won't work well when coupled to a 12 Volt battery system.


Try looking at it from the other direction.  Your alternator may give you 300 Watts.  Therefore, at 13V, then you are expecting to get 25 Amperes of current.  Also, if the speed of the blades, when the alternator begins charging cannot be any faster than 200 RPM, then there had better be 12-13 volts produced when it's turning that fast.  Assuming you are expecting these things, and that this is a 3-phase alternator, then there are 3 coils per phase, and each coil must produce 4 or more volts at 200 RPM.  The voltage in the three coils in series will add up to 12 volts per phase.


A good way to experiment with this stuff is to find a way to turn the rotor at a constant speed, and put in single loops of wire between the magnet faces to measure the volts AC per turn.  If one turn gives you 100 mV, then 40 turns with give 4V at the same speed.  


I made a sort of FAQ on the subject and I hope it will help you (please let me know if you have any trouble opening it - I recently converted it from Adobe Acrobat to HTML.  Also, there is no "Appendix E" yet):


http://www.sparweb.ca/2_Gen_Ax/AXIAL_FLUX_HowItWorks_V3.htm

« Last Edit: March 30, 2009, 01:45:29 PM by SparWeb »
No one believes the theory except the one who developed it. Everyone believes the experiment except the one who ran it.
System spec: 135w BP multicrystalline panels, Xantrex C40, DIY 10ft (3m) diameter wind turbine, Tri-Star TS60, 800AH x 24V AGM Battery, Xantrex SW4024
www.sparweb.ca

Ekij

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Re: Basic Alternator Question
« Reply #3 on: March 31, 2009, 06:00:50 AM »
Stephen,


That URL you posted looks interesting but unfortunately most of the picture links aren't working.

« Last Edit: March 31, 2009, 06:00:50 AM by Ekij »

TomW

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Re: Basic Alternator Question
« Reply #4 on: March 31, 2009, 08:13:54 AM »
Ekij;


Must be a local issue. They all loaded here fine.


Just FYI.


Tom

« Last Edit: March 31, 2009, 08:13:54 AM by TomW »

TomW

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Re: Basic Alternator Question
« Reply #5 on: March 31, 2009, 08:22:45 AM »
Stephen;


Oh, meant to say "Nice document". Should prove useful to many.


Tom

« Last Edit: March 31, 2009, 08:22:45 AM by TomW »

SparWeb

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Re: Basic Alternator Question
« Reply #6 on: March 31, 2009, 01:03:39 PM »
Can you tell me in any more detail what happened?  Did an error message come up?  Was it just full of "X" boxes?  What browser do you use?


I've been experimenting with Firefox as an alternative to IE, and I am discovering that there are pages that display better or worse on each, and for unpredictable reasons.

« Last Edit: March 31, 2009, 01:03:39 PM by SparWeb »
No one believes the theory except the one who developed it. Everyone believes the experiment except the one who ran it.
System spec: 135w BP multicrystalline panels, Xantrex C40, DIY 10ft (3m) diameter wind turbine, Tri-Star TS60, 800AH x 24V AGM Battery, Xantrex SW4024
www.sparweb.ca

jimjjnn

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Re: Basic Alternator Question
« Reply #7 on: March 31, 2009, 03:07:14 PM »
Mine did same thing.

X boxes.


Using win XP pro

« Last Edit: March 31, 2009, 03:07:14 PM by jimjjnn »

kurt

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Re: Basic Alternator Question
« Reply #8 on: March 31, 2009, 05:08:40 PM »
all the pictures worked here in Firefox windows xp Firefox ubuntu and IE7 windows xp
« Last Edit: March 31, 2009, 05:08:40 PM by kurt »

TheCasualTraveler

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Re: Basic Alternator Question
« Reply #9 on: March 31, 2009, 09:44:04 PM »
Hello Dan,


     To answer your question, yes, you can use trial and error to guess at the details but it can also be figured. Here's what I've learned after getting help from this board.


     First, you start with your magnet disc (rotor)I think you mistakenly called this the stator. If so then you have a 12.25 inch metal disc on which to mount your magnets. You ask about which shape magnet is best. That depends on how you look at it. If you compare magnets with all things being equal then wedge magnets may give the best output. However, they are often more expensive so if cost is the comparative factor then for the cost of a wedge magnet you may get a much stronger round or rectangle magnet. For this reason, 1" x 2" x 1/2" neo magnets are the most common (bang for your buck). You say you are planning magnets so I assume you do not have them yet.


     Now putting 12 of these on a 12.25" steel disc will give you a spacing of 1.16" between magnets measured at the inner most point of the magnets. A rule of thumb is to space the magnets with the distance between them about the same as their width so with a magnet 1" wide you would be close. Also, if you want the magnets closer together, just move them in some. They don't have to be right at the edge of the disc.


     Now, given the details of your magnet disc you can layout the coils for your stator. Starting with a 12.25" magnet rotor and subtracting 4" (the sum of 2 - 2" long magnets) gives you a diameter of 8.25" measured at the bottom of the magnets. Take the 8.25 x pi (3.14) gives you 25.905" circumference. Now divide that by the number of coils (9) gives you a space of about 2.89" into which you fit the coil. Now subtract the width of the magnet, 1", from the coil width gives you 1.89 inches. Divide that in half and you have about .945" which is the width 1 "leg" of the coil can be.


     Next, to figure number of turns, set up your magnet rotor(s) The space between magnet faces, or magnet face to second blank rotor (air gap) can be close to the total thickness of the magnet(s). So if you are using two rotors, each with 1/2" thick magnets, then the air gap can be somewhere around 1". If you have 1/2" magnets on only 1 disc with a second blank steel disc then the gap should be more like 1/2" or to be practical about 5/8". Once you have the magnet rotors assembled you can wind a test coil using any number of turns of magnet wire. The inside of the coil being the same size as the outside of the magnet. Place the coil between the two rotors and alighned with the magnets and spin the rotors at the rpm where you want the mill to start charging the batteries. Measure the output of the coil (AC). If the coil has 100 turns and is putting out 2 volts then you know you have .02 volts per coil turn. Using the output of the test coil calculate how many turns you need to reach about 1.75 to 1.8 volts per coil (for 9 coils, 3 phase). If your coil puts out 1.75 volts AC at the desired cut in rpm the you can use the formula 1.75 volts x number of coils per phase (3) = 5.25 volts AC x 1.7 (3 phase star wired) = 8.925 volts AC x 1.4 (rectified to DC = 12.5 volts Approx. cut in depending on the charge of the battery.


     NOW, you know the number of turns, you know how much room you have (thickness) for the stator (coils), you know how much width you have for 1 coil leg so now you can figure what gauge wire will fit. If you are planning a 5/8" air gap then subtract 1/16 each side mechanical clearance, another 1/16 each side for fiberglass mat and imperfections in the stator mold and that leaves you with about 3/8" for the actual coil thickness. Above we figured about .945 for the width of 1 coil leg so the cross sectional area of a coil leg is .945 x 3/8 or .945 x .375 = .355 sq. inches. The amount of copper that will fit in that area is about 60% allowing for air spaces so .355 x .6 = .213 sq. in. Finally, divide that figure by the number of turns your using and using the area of the different wire sizes, see what the largest size wire is that will fit in there. And that's how to figure wire gauge.


     Wow, that was a lot of ciphering. I just hope teacher, I mean Flux, doesn't say I screwed up.

« Last Edit: March 31, 2009, 09:44:04 PM by TheCasualTraveler »

Ekij

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Re: Basic Alternator Question - Web pic problem
« Reply #10 on: April 01, 2009, 05:56:31 AM »
X boxes.

Using IE6 with Xp

It appears I can see the .jpgs but not the .pngs

I can access some of the pictures if I access the URL directly

(http://www.sparweb.ca/2_Gen_Ax/AXIAL_FLUX_HowItWorks_V3_files/image011.gif)

but the source doesn't pull it up so it's a syntax error for IE not an access issue.

For other files I can't even pull the pic directly.

« Last Edit: April 01, 2009, 05:56:31 AM by Ekij »

ghurd

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Re: Basic Alternator Question - Web pic problem
« Reply #11 on: April 01, 2009, 06:27:15 AM »
Vista and IE7(?) has a 50/50 thing going too.

G-
« Last Edit: April 01, 2009, 06:27:15 AM by ghurd »
www.ghurd.info<<<-----Information on my Controller

SparWeb

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Re: Basic Alternator Question - Web pic problem
« Reply #12 on: April 01, 2009, 10:26:30 AM »
You could try the original, in PDF:


http://www.sparweb.ca/2_Gen_Ax/AXIAL_FLUX_HowItWorks_V1a.pdf


I was experimenting with "exporting" MS Word as HTML, and it made a big mess of files and code in the resulting HTML file.  I cleaned it up a little, but it seems the "png" files have some compatability problems.  Don't know if I'll have time to fix that because there are dozens of them...

« Last Edit: April 01, 2009, 10:26:30 AM by SparWeb »
No one believes the theory except the one who developed it. Everyone believes the experiment except the one who ran it.
System spec: 135w BP multicrystalline panels, Xantrex C40, DIY 10ft (3m) diameter wind turbine, Tri-Star TS60, 800AH x 24V AGM Battery, Xantrex SW4024
www.sparweb.ca

DanFord

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Re: Basic Alternator Question
« Reply #13 on: April 01, 2009, 04:03:51 PM »
Thanks very much for that! its very very helpful, i have another quick question. I'm struggling to find any good Australian magnet suppliers, the one i have found has a couple of magnets i'm looking at, but i'm not sure which to use, they have a 36x16x10(mm)with a gauss of 3,900 and a 25x12.5x6(mm) with a gauss of 3,800. my question is, which will be more effective? Is it purely the one with the highest gauss? or will the bigger one with practicaly the same gauss be better? Slightly confused! I don't really want to buy a lot of magnets to have them then the wrong ones!!!


Thanks!


Dan

« Last Edit: April 01, 2009, 04:03:51 PM by DanFord »

TheCasualTraveler

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Re: Basic Alternator Question
« Reply #14 on: April 01, 2009, 08:56:38 PM »
It depends...


     Back up a little and tell us what your goal is as far as power produced, how you will use it and what wind you have in your area. That's where you start your design.

« Last Edit: April 01, 2009, 08:56:38 PM by TheCasualTraveler »

DanFord

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Re: Basic Alternator Question
« Reply #15 on: April 02, 2009, 03:54:03 AM »
looking at just basically charging a battery. average wind speed is around 10mph, looking at doing a 12V system. Does this help?
« Last Edit: April 02, 2009, 03:54:03 AM by DanFord »

TheCasualTraveler

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Re: Basic Alternator Question
« Reply #16 on: April 02, 2009, 06:01:29 AM »
     Do I understand right from your first post that the steel disc to mount the magnets on is 12.25"?
« Last Edit: April 02, 2009, 06:01:29 AM by TheCasualTraveler »

DanFord

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Re: Basic Alternator Question
« Reply #17 on: April 02, 2009, 04:38:51 PM »
I had that wrong unfortunatly, my stator is 12.25" in diameter, trying to fit it all to this size
« Last Edit: April 02, 2009, 04:38:51 PM by DanFord »

TheCasualTraveler

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Re: Basic Alternator Question
« Reply #18 on: April 02, 2009, 08:06:42 PM »
The stator is the thing with the coils, The rotor is the thing with the magnets. Which one is 12.25?
« Last Edit: April 02, 2009, 08:06:42 PM by TheCasualTraveler »

DanFord

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Re: Basic Alternator Question
« Reply #19 on: April 03, 2009, 05:05:56 AM »
the stator
« Last Edit: April 03, 2009, 05:05:56 AM by DanFord »

DanFord

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Re: Basic Alternator Question
« Reply #20 on: April 03, 2009, 05:33:34 AM »
OK i may not have been clear enough with my question, Is it just the magnet with the higher gauss that is stronger? Or will the bigger magnet be weaker because it has a bigger surface then the smaller magnet with the same gauss??? Sorry about the confusion
« Last Edit: April 03, 2009, 05:33:34 AM by DanFord »

Ekij

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Re: Basic Alternator Question
« Reply #21 on: April 03, 2009, 06:27:30 AM »
The magnetic field of the magnet is affected by the Gauss (field density) and the area of the face of the mangnet so the much bigger magnet with the slightly weaker Gauss will be a 'stronger' magnet.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2009, 06:27:30 AM by Ekij »

TheCasualTraveler

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Re: Basic Alternator Question
« Reply #22 on: April 03, 2009, 06:35:12 AM »
I don't understand how you know the size of the stator without first having your magnet rotor.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2009, 06:35:12 AM by TheCasualTraveler »

DanFord

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Re: Basic Alternator Question
« Reply #23 on: April 15, 2009, 04:38:20 AM »
I am well on my way with my alternator, but have one question, why above did you multiply the AC voltage by 1.4? from my readings shouldn't the Voltage DC be 2VoltageAC/pi? this is for a rectifier is it not?


Dan

« Last Edit: April 15, 2009, 04:38:20 AM by DanFord »

DanFord

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Re: Basic Alternator Question
« Reply #24 on: April 15, 2009, 05:13:51 AM »
Because you times it by sqaure root of 2! i got it! thanks anyway!!!!


Feeling stupid for asking now


Dan

« Last Edit: April 15, 2009, 05:13:51 AM by DanFord »