Author Topic: VAWT VS. HAWT (Read 6862 times)

jcwiggens · « **on:** April 14, 2009, 06:52:54 PM »

Hi All

I posted before about help with my motor and many very helpful. it seems like i have a very strong motor with low rpms (1600 rpm 34 amps 480vac,680vdc) which has a lot of weigh, about 80 lbs. It seems as though getting it up on the mast is harder then building the turbine itself. as ive done more research i have found a lot that information that vawt are more efficient, quieter and less complicated to install and maintain then hawt. also where can i find either kits or instructions for building a vawt. i see i can find blades and hubs fir hawt but have as of yet to find any for vawt....any help would be greatly appreciated.

ghurd · « **Reply #1 on:** April 14, 2009, 03:37:39 PM »

Your giant motor may be suited to a simple VAWT, but the concept will be questioned.

"i have found a lot that information that vawt are more efficient, quieter and less complicated to install and maintain then hawt".

"where can i find either kits or instructions for building a vawt".

Tons of info about VAWTs being great (much of it on you-tube?), but no info about actually building one that works?

Windstuffnow Ed is the place to look for functional VAWTs.

Have you seen any data for working, low-speed VAWTs?

http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2009/3/21/165730/111

vawtman · « **Reply #2 on:** April 14, 2009, 05:54:46 PM »

Not sure where you researched.If you did alot of research i don't think you would be bringin up this motor.

Got links?

I'm busy lately with trying to grow tobacco for the first time.

More alt stuff when the weather warms and my little tobaccies are safe.

Smoke it up

Mark

TomW · « **Reply #3 on:** April 14, 2009, 06:12:10 PM »

Mark;

Sadly, that whole VAWTs are great for making electricity myth continually resurfaces. Very few with generation equipment attached ever show up on you tube, either.

Wonder why?

Rhetorical question.

There was a VAWT pond deicer posted recently and thats a great application for them for sure, along with pumping water.

Tom

vawtman · « **Reply #4 on:** April 14, 2009, 07:16:51 PM »

Hi Tom

Don't give up on your dual Zubbly(rip) motor vawt idea.

CmeBREW · « **Reply #5 on:** April 14, 2009, 09:36:17 PM »

Hello JC--,

If the shaft on that big motor turns easy by hand (no brake;little cogging or no dampener), then it looks to me like it would be a fun interesting motor to TRY to make a Vawt with if you can't put up the Hawt. A 12v cut-in around 40rpm is perfect (personal opinion) to attempt a Vawt. That would allow a bigger diameter rotor (4'or whatever) which you will need the good torque- believe me.

But most likely the power is going to be WAY less than if you used it as a 8' hawt in a clear, decently high up location. But in a Residential area sometimes you gotta do what you can get away with, even if it is much less power.

Or you could make a vawt rotor like ED's (windstuffnow.com) and reduce the torque required (at the generator) by increasing the speed range to 80rpm cut-in for a 24v batt system.

This might be better to do than just a bigger diameter slow Savonious (Max torque) Vawt rotor. (Not totally sure though--it is difficult to know with that motor)

His unique design will go faster in decent winds than a Savonious.

I suspect Static balance was one of my main problems.

I never could get my fixed blade Vawts to do much. (usually just 2-6watts//55 watts for seconds in a mega wind gust) They were not useful that way. Very disappointing.

Be aware they are very difficult. But I am still interested in a pivoting blade type Vawt. Then it is not cancelled out so badly on the returning side.

Vawts are a touchy subject around here ,understandably, because it looks like only Ed's design has actually been proven to be a USEFUL Vawt design.

I also do not believe the output claims of (fixed blade) Vawts on Youtube OR any of the commercial made vawts. I HOPE I and others will be proven wrong by someone showing an AMMETER hooked to a battery (NOT shorting the Ammeter) in a Vawt video, thus proving their Vawt design actually works.

But from my basic experience, The opposing (returning) side AlWAYS cancels out a large amount of the power (!!) unless you can figure out something like ED's design which changes the axis point in relation to the blade on the returning side. (my theory anyway)

-Good luck.

jcwiggens · « **Reply #6 on:** April 15, 2009, 08:05:02 AM »

Giant motor ....lol....anyway i just want to say im not an advocate of vawt or any kind of wind power over the other. i just want to start to get off the grid as much as possible and thats my only agenda. i also want to say that im not nearly as smart as most people here which is why im seeking advise. anyway my next question is how low can i go, lol. i really dont want a 40 foot mast. would 20 foot be high enough to get a usable amount power produced? i only have a 150x150 lot and a tall mast would seem to need guy wires spread out over a good chunk of it. given these limitations should i just give up, or can i produce enough power to justify the cost of building a turbine. i dont expect to recover my cost right away but 3 or 4 years would be acceptable....any thoughts and thanks.....lol....."giant motor"

ghurd · « **Reply #7 on:** April 15, 2009, 08:28:11 AM »

You have more space than me.

How low? Depends on the lot.

Mine needs a 40' tower where I can't see it and base next to the property line,

Or about 7'high on the property line between the houses and under the trees and 20' from a city sidewalk.

Free power is not cheap. 3 or 4 year payback would be lucky.

Most people do it because they have no choice, or just for fun.

Yup. That's a Giant Motor by my standards! Fairly common to get 300~500W out of a 20 pound motor conversion (with a HAWT).

G-

electrondady1 · « **Reply #8 on:** April 15, 2009, 12:49:13 PM »

horizontal axis wind turbines provide very little in the way of a decorative surface.
kind of ho-hum in that respect.
they are however more efficient at producing electricity for those interested in that sort of thing.

Ha!

jcwiggens · « **Reply #9 on:** April 15, 2009, 06:20:44 PM »

i should have known that when i only found stuff on u tube for vawt that the claims would be either false or totally exaggerated. it where you see all this garbage about joe cells and water powered cars...enough to make me gag

TomW · « **Reply #10 on:** April 15, 2009, 07:15:35 PM »

jc;

Glad you "get" it!

I would not discourage experimenting or hobby level VAWT machines but I hate to see anyone waste effort and resources chasing one for serious power generation.

It may happen one day but for a proven power source right now you probably want to follow the herd.

I know I come off looking like I have a major prejudice against VAWT but it is more about resource practicality for a person looking to create electrical energy.

Just from here.

Tom

Bruce S · « **Reply #11 on:** April 16, 2009, 08:29:08 AM »

Vawtman;

Tobacco? are you going to be trying the low ground type that can be mowed when young, and very high-sugar content?

Enquirying minds want to know :/

There was a lot of studies done out in N.Carolina U. using this gene type, was a lot of interest then died out. Would be good use of product that government is trying tax to death.

Bruce S

Bruce S · « **Reply #12 on:** April 16, 2009, 09:11:56 AM »

JC;

Go to this link "http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2005/6/8/35115/51007"

And read up on the VAWTs there. Rotonuts I believe was on to something.

Rotornut & Phinker? any leatest news on these!?

I agree in a small point about the VAWTs.

For far great power the HAWT are the defato way to go otherwise GE would be building 3 story tall VAWTs.

But for people like me who live in the "city" and cannot legally put up a prop based 'mill, but CAN put up wirlly-gigs all over my yard. These will work out just fine. It of course, will take some planing and patience to find the best fit.

The two little tape-drive motors I did a short diary on will be finding themselves on the bottom of a couple VAWTs. I will be gearing them up using either Helical or worm gears. I like Helical as the are much quieter and cheaper to find, the worm gears are better at high ratios but....

I promise, that once the little 30 incher is assembled and at least turning I'll post it.

I have no delusions of trying to see if the $100 V-prise is still up for grabs, but these will do just fine for charging the backup SLAs, that are used to recharge the NiCds.

Just my farthings worth.

Bruce S

vawtman · « **Reply #13 on:** April 16, 2009, 02:45:14 PM »

Hi Bruce,

Here's a link to the sight i joined a few days ago

http://www.coffinails.com/forums/?board=general

If your interested stop on over.Tobacco growing is alot of fun tax free work from what i'm reading.I'm a roll your own guy and my taxes tripled so i'm fighten back.

I love gardening

P.s my nick is TAXEDENOUGH

I think the original post was covered pretty well already.

Mark

Bruce S · « **Reply #14 on:** April 17, 2009, 06:54:41 AM »

Mark;

Sorry, I thought you were getting into the grow it for fuel run.

I don't smoke & don't allow it in the house, even though 95% of our family does. NASTY stuff IMO [:0.

I don't push my thoughts on anyone as I believe they have the same rights as I do.

My grandpa was an import from Koln, Germany and rolled his own as well. Prince Albert in a CAN was what he bought here.

You might enjoy the read about using it for high-sugar content and how they used it to make Alky. They found that when cut very young and when kept low growing it produced a better yield of Alky that corn ever will. Grab a calorimeter and run a young leaf's juice on its window & have a look.

Cheers

Bruce S

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