next newest newbie

[mdntdncr]

I did it . . . I did it . . . .

oh . . . this post is going to be edited out, isn't it?

[wooferhound]

I think the biggest lesson to learn is Conservation. If you can reduce your electrical useage to be half of what you are using now, then you will only need a Wind/Solar system to be half as big as you were planning in the beginning.

Use Fluorescent lighting not incandescent

Microwave oven instead of Conventional oven

Don't set the house thermostat to 70 Degrees (21c) and leave it

   set it higher in the summer and lower in the winter

Turn off stuff when it is unused

Hand wash dishes, don't use a dishwasher

Use solar thermal water and house heating

You get the idea . . .

[DamonHD]

Hi,

Just on the dishwasher point...

If you run a modern dishwasher full, and use the lowest intensity setting for your load that will do the job, there is evidence that a dishwasher will use less water and energy and wash and rinse your dishes and pans better than doing it by hand.

In particular I have no desire to eat off plates still with a smear of detergent that tastes bad and potentially acts as an endocrine disruptor (man boobs and cancer anyone?).

Rgds

Damon

[mdntdncr]

Actually, it is true.  Handwashing dishes uses more energy and water.  Of course, if your water is solar heated then you're reducing some of that energy, so maybe you're breaking even more and you simply lose time.

Additionally, I dislike microwaves because they destroy the nutritional value of the foods.  It will often depend on which foods.  Meats are mostly fine, but that's about it.

  I understand conservation and have used it a good part of my life.  But, even conserving, there are many cases when prices will go up and what we consider unfeasible will quickly become feasible.  This last year, when oil rose quickly, while the price of oil only doubled, my electric bill almost quadrupled.

  Additionally, sometimes you can only conserve so much.  It's hot.  And humid.  At some point, enough is enough and that air conditioner has to come on.  Since we've been married, my wife and I have tried to keep the thermostat almost to the extremes.  either wear more clothes or shed clothes.  Well, in the summer you can only shed so much before your neighbors call the cops.  But most importantly, we have a new addition.  We can't swing to extremes now.  We have to look at what the wisest course is for the safety of the infant.  

  Granted . . the situation is temporary, but events can conspire to run those prices up where it's no longer hands down cheapest to run off the grid.  Studying; preparing ahead of time means that while you're having fun, you're also laying the groundwork for the future.

  It's why, like in a post above, I'm thinking, strategizing, learning, and ditching things as I go, constantly modifying my ideas as I find out what others have done.  Of course, with everything else that's going on, I just can't afford to do anything major either <wink>.

[DamonHD]

I'm not convinced that microwaves are worse than any other method of cooking for destroying nutrients (or indeed making others available).

And you should try it on broccoli and fish; both benefit from fast cooking to avoid turning to mush!  B^>

Rgds

Damon

[mdntdncr]

Well . ..  I'm convinced.  There's enough evidence out there to support it.

So I don't use it.  But the statement was to use it instead of an electric oven.

Since I don't use an electric oven, this point becomes somewhat moot for me.

All my cooking is currently done with gas, with the exception of a slow-cooker which can be replaced with a solar oven (eventually) but still uses less electric than a conventional electric oven.

  However, that does come back to the same point.  If, in fact, enough electricity can be produced from an independent source, would it be feasible to change to electric when gas shoots up?

[ghurd]

Energy prices are all related.

Gas went up.  Which made coal go up.  Which made fire wood go up (at least locally).

The grid tie, start small, save money thing is still pretty poor.

Crude is more stable now and may have reached a plateau for a while.

Say the grid is 20 cents / KWH.

That 200W illegal inverter is ~$350.  About $500(?) for a 200W peak windmill and tower. $150 for stray parts to keep the numbers even.

Be really lucky to maintain an average of 40W, and I mean really lucky.

That puts a 0 maintenance pay back at 14 years 3 months.  That's the break even point.

If the original $1000 was invested at 5% compounded annually for the same time, it would be worth a hair over $2000.

It works out much better on a larger scale.  Bigger is cheaper.

You do not seem overly fixed to the wind.  If you are thinking hydro, it works out a lot better.

G-

[Madscientist267]

G-

Youre forgetting though that this applies more to someone who gets it all. For someone starting out, big is begging for an expensive mistake with not much to show for it but a bunch of parts. Sure, you'll spend some extra money going small first, but there's no price on the knowledge gained by doing so

I suppose every situation is unique...

Steve

[mdntdncr]

G & Steve are both correct in how this pertains to me.  Small only allows me to experiment and to decide how a larger setup might benefit me or harm me.

  ROI is minimal for both large and small startups if you're only experimenting to learn.  If, however, one is serious about an economic solution, then going for a large setup without adequate research or knowledge is self-composting your money.

  There are other rewards as well.  I'm a proponent for open source, so if (and we're all agreeing that this is a big if) I were to decide on an economic solution, then I can post it and anyone who wants can benefit.  Trying to make money off of it is, in my opinion, a no-win.  Too many people out there are trying to sell half-brained ideas because they want to 'cash in'.

  G is also correct that I'm not dedicated to wind.  Where I live makes it a rather difficult choice.  Unless I can come up with something very efficient, my experiments with wind will be more of a novelty.  

  This is why I'm looking for a 'simple' solution for the electric and tie.  Because others are working on these while I hope to be working on power production.

  Hope is a big word, though.  My resources are fully utilized right now and I have other projects that I'm currently working on or designing. . . including some for work where I hope to increase my revenue or my value to the company.  That, plus a newborn, a wife in school and pursuing a license, a house that I'm having to recondition as I go without disturbing either baby or mom, and losing 3+ hours a day in drive time means that I'll be doing research first.

[ghurd]

Certainly 100% correct.

I intended to point out how the grid tie idea should be the first to go, especially for  micro scale.  The inverter's limits holds the system back, and a 400W system only costs a hair more than a 200W system.

I should mention more about that 200W grid tied inverter, and how much of the information about it from retailers is incorrect.  The recommendations about its use show the retailers never actually used one.

It appears well designed from an end user standpoint, except for not being UL approved, and crappy instructions resulting in crappy performance.

G-

[mdntdncr]

you know . . I think this reply is only going to be two words wide now, huh?

ugh . .

I came back to read your reply again and realized I didn't catch something.

What did you mean by 400 only costs a little more than 200?

Is there a 400 watt synchronous grid-tie I'm not aware of?

[Onthero]

Your link is offline, could you post the correct/new one ?!

Thx !

[mdntdncr]

I found it by simply going here and then looking at the options.

http://www.mindchallenger.com/wind/