Author Topic: Please offer guidance - hydropower (Read 4975 times)

want2Boffthegrid · « **on:** July 21, 2009, 07:53:49 PM »

Hello.

If anyone could offer assistance, I would be forever grateful.

I have been trying to put together a hydro system with the stream we have in our backyard. (I have some video if someone could tell me how to upload it for reference!)

I am pretty mechanically inclined and understand how the system should work, but the math, and the batteries in particular, are throwing me.

I am really asking for step by step instructions on what exactly to use and how to set it up, connect it to the house and be off grid.

The video will give you a much better idea of what we have to work with (a small waterfall and no head to speak of - but plenty of opportunity for creating dams). Pretty close to the house (50 feet).

We have a pretty large house (many long term guests). A home office with five computers and asstd office equipment. Two refrigerators, two ovens, two microwaves, two dishwashers (guests), stand alone freezer. Three a/c units (one for each floor.) Washer and dryer (lots of use - like three loads a day.)

My electric bill ranges from $350- $550 a month.

Like I said - any exact instruction on what to use and how to use it would be extremely helpful. Also, any hints on how to upload the video for reference.

Thanks a million!!!

zeusmorg · « **Reply #1 on:** July 21, 2009, 02:33:35 PM »

Put your video on u tube and then post the link here.

ghurd · « **Reply #2 on:** July 21, 2009, 02:37:36 PM »

'Stream' can mean about anything depending on one's point of reference.

'Head' makes power every time.

$450/mo bill is a Lot of electric.

'Exact instructions' require a very thick wallet.

That is what engineering companies do.

I want to use less gas.

Do I need a need a moped?

Not if I pull a 10 ton trailer.

I am not computer literate, and I found photobucket very easy to use.

Uploaded videos from a $50 digital camera with no troubles at all.

And I can't even take a video with that camera!

Need something to reference a scale too.

Distant water falling over some rocks is pretty, but pointless.

'Off Grid' does not usually sit well with:

"A home office with five computers and asstd office equipment. Two refrigerators, two ovens, two microwaves, two dishwashers (guests), stand alone freezer. Three a/c units (one for each floor.) Washer and dryer (lots of use - like three loads a day.)"

Need to rethink things for more efficiency.

Two ovens and 3 a/c units, run from inverters and batteries?

Not good. Properly done, that would cost more than I paid for my house.

It could be easy to reduce the bill with the stream. Maybe in the UPS batteries.

No idea what your perception is between a stream and Niagara Falls, but a stream is not going to do as much as you think.

G-

want2Boffthegrid · « **Reply #3 on:** July 21, 2009, 02:51:44 PM »

Thanks! Hope this works! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RpAUHuynpsI

want2Boffthegrid · « **Reply #4 on:** July 21, 2009, 02:53:12 PM »

Thanks! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=84HxVtDs9sA

want2Boffthegrid · « **Reply #5 on:** July 21, 2009, 02:57:14 PM »

Thank you for the commentary.

If you would truly like to help and can offer assistance, please view the video for reference.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=84HxVtDs9sA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RpAUHuynpsI

want2Boffthegrid · « **Reply #6 on:** July 21, 2009, 03:04:29 PM »

If you don't think the stream can handle everything, then could a combination of water power and solar power work (or water and wind?)? Solar seems much more expensive than water, but again, this is why I am seeking advice. Any and all is appreciated.

zeusmorg · « **Reply #7 on:** July 21, 2009, 03:28:27 PM »

With what you are running, NO WAY will that tiny stream even come close to getting you off the grid. What you need to do is measure the GPM and flow of the stream and

from that you can calculate how much usable power you can get, your only hope is building a dam and probably using an undershot wheel. Depends on the lay of the land whether or not you could use an overshot.(more efficient) Even at that, you would need a much bigger power source than that tiny stream to get you totally off grid.

I think the first thing you need to do is REDUCE your power consumption, 450/mo is ridiculous!

A combination of solar and hydro is your only hope, unless you have really good winds at your site, then a triple whammy may be in order. But I do hope you have a really deep wallet. A system doing what you want is gonna cost megabux!

In hydro you have several types of systems, use of a pelton wheel and a long fall, with adequate water will do the trick, but that takes a lot of fall, which you do not have. An overshot wheel requires much more water volume but not much fall. An undershot wheel can be used on any clear moving stream yet is the least efficient setup, so to get any large amount of electricity out of one you need a LOT of volume!

There are sites dedicated to how to calculate hydro. Do some google searches on how to construct a weir, and how to measure head and flow.

It really depends on what you wish to spend to get off the grid, but we usually refer to that as "pre-paying the electric bill" Your payback time is decades in a lot of cases.

ghurd · « **Reply #8 on:** July 21, 2009, 04:02:16 PM »

Looks like about 30" wide total, and 5" head?

If we are engaged in some kind of guessing game, care to make a guess at this one?

http://i701.photobucket.com/albums/ww20/ghurd1/Stray%20Pics/Waterfall1.jpg

http://www.waterwheelfactory.com/TurType.htm

http://www.reuk.co.uk/Calculation-of-Hydro-Power.htm

Without any numbers or scale, it is a guessing game.

want2Boffthegrid · « **Reply #9 on:** July 21, 2009, 04:23:48 PM »

Thank you for the concrete advice. please excuse my ignorance, but how does one measure GPM (what does it stand for?) and flow of the stream?

with regards to our consumption, we have 9 people in our family not including our many guests (some stay weeks, some stay months). we try to conserve as much as possible (no lights wherever there is a window, even in the office, except at night. No a/c (except at night so my husband can sleep with ihs allergies) unless it is over 80 degrees and humid. Plus the business equipment.

Water is our best resource right now, because , like most people, we have not been blessed with deep wallets (they may be deep, but they are not full!). A dam with more than one overshot wheel is a possibility? What is an overshot wheel and can more than one be used at a time?

I will do the google search and let you know what I come up with.

Thanks for the guidance.

bzrqmy · « **Reply #10 on:** July 21, 2009, 07:39:07 PM »

Your interest in being off grid is appreciated. Even creating some power would be good. That little stream with no head is not worth the effort. Look into solar and wind. Do lots of research. I personally feel there is going to be a huge breakthrough in the price of solar in the coming years.

want2Boffthegrid · « **Reply #11 on:** July 21, 2009, 07:45:08 PM »

Thanks for the encouragement. Do you think the stream may have some value if we dam it up in a couple of places? Solar , for now, is out of budget, and wind isn't really practical b/c we have lots of high trees.

Any ideas?

Thanks!

wooferhound · « **Reply #12 on:** July 21, 2009, 09:07:37 PM »

In order to get power from flowing water you will need lots of these 2 things...

-lots of Gallons per Minute (GPM)

-lots of Head, the drop from the high point through the turbine to the low point

If you could make the tallest dam you can and create a single spillway flowing over the top of a waterwheel (overshoot wheel) then you will be making the most power possible in your situation. But it looks like you will only be able to make enough power to run several lights with the low flow that I'm seeing.

To get the most power you can, you would need to bring the water in from the highest point upstream that is possible, then let the water drop through a pipe & turbine to the lowest point in the stream that you can get to. This can be complicated and require a lot of long pipe. even with good flow and head you will not get enough power to run even 1 of your air conditioners.

In 90% of RE installations the power you make will cost more than the power you can buy from the grid, and will likely cost more than double the cost of purchasing Grid power. The trick when you are making your own power is conservation, the more power you save then the smaller amount of power you will need to make.

Replace all incandescent lights with Compact florescent bulbs

Use a microwave oven and not a stove or oven

Put in good house ventilation and use outside air when it's comfortable

Put timers on outside lighting and other things not needed during the day

Instruct your guests to help you save power.

Add insulation, and much much more, just think about it

Actually the best use for your stream would be to cool the house. If the water is cold enough to provide cooling, then pump it into the house through a radiator and blow a fan through it to cool the house. I stated this very simply but you get the idea.

Hope I'm helping . . .

TheCasualTraveler · « **Reply #13 on:** July 21, 2009, 09:48:42 PM »

The fact that you are on the grid means that you can buy electricity for less than it will cost you to make it. So if funds are tight then conservation is your best bet. It sounds like you have a long way to go to meet the level of conservation that many "off grid" folks on here are at. The very idea of running dishwashers may sound silly to them.

To answer any questions about the stream you must come up with some data. Ghurd gave you a very good link from the waterwheel factory's site. Did you read it? Do what you have to do to determine the GPM flow and the total head and then you can get solid answers on the streams potential. The stream may be your best bet for cost efficient energy but you must get the data. Head and Flow.

want2Boffthegrid · « **Reply #14 on:** July 22, 2009, 08:13:07 AM »

Thank you very much!

want2Boffthegrid · « **Reply #15 on:** July 22, 2009, 08:36:08 AM »

Hello, Andy.

Thank you for your input. I appreciate it.

You should know that we use less water running the dishwasher with so many dishes than we do washing them by hand. We are a lot of people.

I read both links that ghurd posted and, please excuse the ignorance - this is the newbies page , but I did not understand how the waterwheel link would help me. The other link was pretty straightforward, however, head x flow x gravity would leave me with a "o" since I have zero head and anything times zero is zero. I could multiply flow times gravity, but I am not sure how to measure the flow.

By the way, the stream is around 6'-7' wide, not 30". I don't know if that helps anything.

Thanks again for your help.

want2Boffthegrid · « **Reply #16 on:** July 22, 2009, 08:39:35 AM »

Sorry, didn't mean to make you guess.

I am very new to this (that's why I'm on the newbie page ).

Anyway, the stream is about 6'to 7' wide and approximately 3' at deepest, 1' at shallowest.

Thanks for the links.

I'm not sure how the waterwheel sketches help me, although they are informative.

Please advise how to measure flow - gallons per minute?

Thanks.

spinningmagnets · « **Reply #17 on:** July 22, 2009, 10:18:07 AM »

Heres a well-engineered water-wheel story:

http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2007/5/28/122237/355

If you have almost no head, you're stuck with some type of water wheel. Somewhere around 20' of head it becomes viable to use a Pelton/Turgo (though even then, more head is better).

This Cameroon project has low head, but it does have a very high volume of flow, so it can produce 15-kW of power. Since you have low-head/low-flow, you could build a short dam and use a Banki, such as this project:

http://www.otherpower.com/otherpower_hydro.html

These are from smart people using real-world materials, and if there was some way to get more Watts out of your water flow, someone would be doing it.

Airstream · « **Reply #18 on:** July 22, 2009, 10:56:38 AM »

http://www.nooutage.com/hydroele.htm#Mesuring%20Head%20&%20Flow

http://www.1728.com/flowrate.htm

http://www.reuk.co.uk/Calculation-of-Hydro-Power.htm

(Kindly skim past product hype/posturing & look for common sense facts..)

zeusmorg · « **Reply #19 on:** July 22, 2009, 11:02:33 AM »

You really need to measure the available water in the stream head is how far it falls, If it didn't fall at all it would not be a creek, it would be a still pond. flow is how fast if falls, by using a weir (which i did mention before) you can calculate the amount of water running through in Gallons Per Minute. flow is determined by how fast the stream flows, this can be calculated by measuring how fast a buoyant object goes between two given points.

Google "weir" "head" "flow rate" "small hydropower" those alone will yield enough hits to keep you reading for a few days.

Without doing a total site survey I cannot give you a step by step guide on what you'd need,how to build a dam, if you even need it, or what would be the easiest and most efficient method of generating power from your stream. However it WILL NOT be enough to get you off the grid. The best thing to do is to reduce power consumption, it can be done, and no-one can tell me that a dishwasher is more efficient than hand washing. Just the electricity alone saved by washing by hand would save a lot, and no it does not use less water! Dish washing done right, can become a social activity.

I'm just betting I could walk around your house and in a 1/2 hour point out how to save at least 100 a month in electricity. It's called turn it off, unplug it, get rid of unneeded or seldom used "conveniences"

For instance, in my house there are two of us. I avg 32./mo on my electricity bill, I have 4 computers, an LCD HDTV, and quite a few other "modern" appliances such as a microwave. I also have a full shop of power tools which get used on a regular basis.

There a lot of guides on the internet on how to save on electricity, water useage and other costly items, let me tell you it is a LOT easier saving electricity (and cheaper in the long run) than generating it!

Remember people got along just fine without our modern conveniences before the advent of easily obtainable electricity,

TheCasualTraveler · « **Reply #20 on:** July 22, 2009, 11:34:42 AM »

Ditto to what Zuesmorg said. As to the dishwashers, I was referring to electricity usage, not water and also there's the three loads of clothes to dry each day. We have a clothesline. Haven't used the dryer in a half year or so. Really, it's about lifestyle. Using a towel and hanging it up right away to dry to be reused many times. Same with clothes, hanging them up to air if their not really dirty. I'll see Zuesmorg's $100 savings walkthru and raise it to $200.

Curious, do all these house guests pull their weight, chipping in to pay for the electricity? I envision them washing dishes and hanging out clothes. OH! That's it. I just figured out your biggest resource. Google search this site for "Pedgen"

Madscientist267 · « **Reply #21 on:** July 22, 2009, 12:23:54 PM »

want2Boffthegrid · « **Reply #22 on:** July 22, 2009, 12:41:54 PM »

Thank you very much!!!

want2Boffthegrid · « **Reply #23 on:** July 22, 2009, 12:42:40 PM »

Thank you!!!

want2Boffthegrid · « **Reply #24 on:** July 22, 2009, 12:52:17 PM »

I am really very grateful for your time and sharing your knowledge. I plan to follow all your advice, so I guess I'll be on google for a while. Thanks for being frank about conservation. I thought we were so good about keeping lights out and small stuff unplugged, but seems there is quite a long way to go! It will become a family/friend/guest project!! I will let you know our results!

Thanks again!

want2Boffthegrid · « **Reply #25 on:** July 22, 2009, 01:06:06 PM »

Andy,

We get the dividends from the guests in ways that far surpass my electric bill! I have no qualms about asking anyone to turn off the lights. Most are pretty helpful, but there are always one or two . . .

Thanks for all your help!! I'll keep you posted to our progess.

ghurd · « **Reply #26 on:** July 22, 2009, 04:20:35 PM »

The sketches tell what is not possible, leaving what may work.

Example: Pelton- "It requires very high heads to operate at this efficiency. The Pelton starts to "come into it own" at 60' of head".

Meaning you can rule out a Pelton.

Lets say you have 20 liters per second of flow, or 317 gallons per minute.

Looks like a foot of head is possible. Doesn't look like a lot more without a lot of piping.

That gives 36W in the linked calculator.

I really don't think you have that much flow.

The bill is $450. Say 15 cents per KWH? That's 3,000 KWH per month. Average output to break even is 4167 watts. Before losses.

That means the creek needs to be 116 times more powerful.

It can reduce the electric bill by about 0.86%, or a little less than $4 a month.

Look for more efficiency.

CFL bulbs? Have a 75W incandescent On say 12 hours a day? Change it to a 13W CFL and save about 22.3KWH or $3.35 per month. Costs $2 to do that.

Laundry "Spinner"? Spins wet laundry super-fast to remove water. Saves a fortune in dryer power. And time.

All those guests have an area where a big TV is on about all day and all night?

The LCD TVs use a lot less power than the old CRT type.

G-

want2Boffthegrid · « **Reply #27 on:** July 22, 2009, 04:37:48 PM »

ghurd-

I really appreciate your continued input and advice. I am following up with the overwhelming response, information and links. I will post again with our progress.

Thanks again.

News:

Author Topic: Please offer guidance - hydropower (Read 4975 times)