Author Topic: help with axial flux [CLOSED]  (Read 12404 times)

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xclr82xtc

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help with axial flux [CLOSED]
« on: December 06, 2009, 01:53:03 AM »
can someone PLEASE go over the basic axial flux designs for me!!! i have been online for over 12 hours, and i have found ALL kinds of data. im a mechanical engieering student. for my final project im machining, building, a 0 friction maglev VAWT. as the average wind speed here in NC is only 8 mph. a VAWT will work best. maybe even hooked to a gear box. anyways, i was originally thinking of doing the standard sandwich style. then i started thinking that i would do it by turning the sandwich on its end (so i only need one rotating plate), then i saw the cog design, then i am stuck trying to figure out what size wire and how many turns  i should use, then i started looking into grid inverters...GOD HELP ME lol


ok..im going to bed.


jc

 

« Last Edit: December 06, 2009, 01:53:03 AM by (unknown) »

electrondady1

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Re: help with axial flux
« Reply #1 on: December 06, 2009, 06:10:28 AM »
what is the time frame for your project

what is the budget.


maglev is sexy but have you got the time to experiment?

« Last Edit: December 06, 2009, 06:10:28 AM by electrondady1 »

xclr82xtc

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Re: help with axial flux
« Reply #2 on: December 06, 2009, 07:07:43 AM »
i got all semester, i did the design last semester in design 2. now im in design 3, and we have to do the project. i wouldnt say its an "unlimited" budget, but realistically i'll spend whatever. I plan on using it for grid power, so i want it to be done right. not to mention i wouldnt mind selling them lol
« Last Edit: December 06, 2009, 07:07:43 AM by xclr82xtc »

ghurd

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Re: help with axial flux
« Reply #3 on: December 06, 2009, 08:31:10 AM »
"i did the design last semester in design 2. now im in design 3"

What part(s) is designed?


Everything has to play well together.

The part(s) that is designed will determine everything else.


You have put some severe limitations on what you can build by stating VAWT, 8MPH, and GTI.


Why maglev?

(expecting to hear "less friction losses")

Leading me to why a gear box?  And there is no need for a gear box.


Not sure what you mean with your PMA descriptions, but,

Better off using the standard type with 2 rotating disks.


A legal GTI and it's required extra goodies probably just used up most of the budget.

Figure the actual wind speed at the level the VAWT will be mounted, not a couple hundred feet up in clear wind.

Look into the available power in THAT wind, the efficiencies, etc, to get an estimate of the power it can be expected to produce.

Figure the cost.  And life expectancy.

Figure when it will break even.

About here is where most people consider it officially acceptable to cry.

G-

« Last Edit: December 06, 2009, 08:31:10 AM by ghurd »
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wdyasq

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Re: help with axial flux
« Reply #4 on: December 06, 2009, 09:27:58 AM »
It would help if you started off with a basic working design .... If you find a working VAWT we would like to see it .....


If you find something working in 8MPH wind .... I'd like to see it.


I you find s design working in 8MPH winds with a gearbox .... or a maglev .... and now, at what I see as the end of a semester .... I think you will have better luck at the lottery.


Ron

« Last Edit: December 06, 2009, 09:27:58 AM by wdyasq »
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xclr82xtc

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Re: help with axial flux
« Reply #5 on: December 06, 2009, 04:09:11 PM »
lol i dont have time to cry. your right about the maglev. mainly not having much wind, i need all i can get. im looking to use maglev to steady both axis, so that it will be completely friction less, and vibration free. ensuring low maintenance and maximum RPM.


 i was looking into the gear box because it seems to me most PMA's make more power at higher rpms. since im going to be limited to around 130-180rpm but will have plenty of torque, it may be better to gear it. (educated guess based off other similar models -36inch wide,  15-18 blade, 5 feet tall, 8 inch aerofoil style blades with deflectors)  However, this will add more rotational mass, and drag and that's what i dont want.  rotational mass and simplicty is the reason i was looking to go with a horizontal PMA stack design, instead of vertical. this would allow me to also have multiple "layers" of coils on the same disk. and i would be using both poles on certain magnets, making it more efficient.  Also each coil will be independent so if one burns out, or i want to try another coil design they can be easily removed and replaced. (ill illustrate this for you when i get some time on my cad program.)


 The GTI is the part that really has me stumped. From what i have learned the Raw Power produced varies in both frequency and voltage. so how do i regulate that to a steady grid compatible power source? i know alot of people just rectify it and charge batteries, but i want a battery free system for simplicity. i may add some later for a back up, but for now im going to stay away from them.  and i also dont want the powerloss that rectification produces dues to heat losses.


this area this mill is going is at the end of a large field, there is a gap between the tree line of about 250 feet, and it seems there is ALWAYS a steady flow of wind through this gap. it will only be mounted on a 25 foot platform, but i feel this is more than sufficient for the amount of torque i want to produce.


so anyways, if you guys have any information of different, more efficient PMA designs (like the cog design i saw on here,) or if you have any knowlege you can share about GTIs, that would be much helpful.


thanks and sorry for the long read! =)

« Last Edit: December 06, 2009, 04:09:11 PM by xclr82xtc »

xclr82xtc

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Re: help with axial flux
« Reply #6 on: December 06, 2009, 04:11:10 PM »
oh and to answer your question, the mill is what is already desgined, im just trying to figure out what im going to do for the PMA before i can finalize.  the steel plate the magnets will mount to will be and intregral part of the base.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2009, 04:11:10 PM by xclr82xtc »

xclr82xtc

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Re: help with axial flux
« Reply #7 on: December 06, 2009, 04:18:52 PM »
if you got to youtube and do a search for "low wind VAWT"  the poster is realracecom, you will see the design i am doing, they design is proven to work in low wind, as they have one on a cell tower aprox 60 feet up, and it spins well. however im removing frictional loses with the maglev, and i believe that i can design a better PMA, of course with the help of the masses who have been there before me.  I have also seen some astounding voltage and amperages produced even when just being turned by hand, however i havent been able to find specifics to the design of the coils, this machine in theory will have MULTIPLE MULTIPLE coils, with several " layers" hooked in parrallel so voltage should not be a problem, this said i dont want to wrap 60 coils with 13 gauge magnet wire and find that its to big.


this is another stepping stone, to get my "layered" design to work, i will either have to make each layer feed a seperate GTI, or figure out how to make different sized coils work in the same circuit. (each layer will have a smaller circumference, thus shorter coil lengths) i believe this can be accomplished by changing the wire size and the turns, and as longs as i can make the larger and smaller coils have the same resistance, it should work. but as i said, im a mechanical engineer, not electrical so im weak on this theory, i may sub out one of my classes this sememster for and electical class, we will see.

« Last Edit: December 06, 2009, 04:18:52 PM by xclr82xtc »

Beaufort

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Re: help with axial flux
« Reply #8 on: December 06, 2009, 05:29:43 PM »
I think your enthusiasm is great, but the scope of the project you describe is a very large one.  In fact, there are entire companies developing exactly what you're describing and they are going on $10M of capital and up.  There are only a few that have released a commercial product, and the viability of a VAWT for them seems to be purely marketing.  That aside, I'd recommend taking apart your project into sections and trying to eliminate the variables.  Then focus on one of the areas and do it well, and go with known sub-systems for the rest of the project.  And as a student, I would think you should choose a given area that can be put onto a resume to show prospective employers that you have actually researched an area in depth (and can show the working results).  Here are some thoughts:




  1.  VAWT configuration, sails and power gathering:  It sounds like this has already been designed?  Can this be changed at this point, or do you have to finish the project with constraints in this area?  The Ed Lenz2 design seems to be one of the best sail configurations around here (Google search LENZ2).  If you are stuck with a design, measure the mechanical power available with a prony brake over a range of wind speeds. This will allow you to match the sails to an alternator.


  2.  Maglev bearings:  This is a project in itself, and the benefits are likely not worth such gains as matching the alternator curve to the blade power curve.  I'd strongly recommend scrapping this and going with standard packaged bearing sets (trailer spindle, etc.).  Another possibility is to design the machine with standard bearings with space for the levitation magnets...and finish that part of the design if time permits.  At least you would have a spinning machine without further development.


  3.  Grid Tie:  Since you're not an EE, buy something off-the-shelf.  If this will actually be a permanent installation, you'll have to get a local electrical contractor to put together an NEC-compliant system (and possibly UL, depending upon the situation).  The wiring, disconnects, etc. will add up to many thousands of $$.  If this is beyond your budget, go with a battery.  But you will have to decide which way you're going before choosing your voltage and therefore windings.


  4.  Alternator:  Given a power curve from #1, and a voltage from #3, you can then determine what to do for an alternator.  If you have your heart set on building an axial, buy one of the receipe books that are available and lay out the mechanical input power curves for each one (requires some calculation beyond what is given in the books, but the latest Hugh Piggott book has it in the back).  For a VAWT, it seems like gearing or chain speed increasers are a better way to go versus a low-speed, big "R" axial.  With the speed increase factored in along with the losses, you should have a series of curves to match your setup.  If you can go through this process, small tweaks may be needed to fine-tune cutin speeds.  There are also a few commercial alternators available that could be geared to a VAWT, allowing you to focus on #1, #2, or #3 (Windblue, TLG, etc.)




Good luck.  Keep the scope of the project reasonable and you will have much more fun, and have something that might actually work!
« Last Edit: December 06, 2009, 05:29:43 PM by Beaufort »

xclr82xtc

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Re: help with axial flux
« Reply #9 on: December 06, 2009, 06:38:22 PM »
while it sounds complicated, its actually a VERY simple design  not counting the coils and magnets there is roughly 60 parts, and 15-18 of those will be blades  and 30-36 will be blade mounts lol. and all the parts are the same so it goes together like a set of legos.  the lenz2 design is what im basing my blades on, however, im modifying them slightly to work in close proximity to other blades. so its more of an aerofoil design. i didn't c the standard "u" shape as being entirely efficient.


the glory of the way i have this drawn up in cad is that if i want to change blade designs, i can disassemble the blades from the plates, and replace them with a different mount and blade design. the same with the coils. they are mounted to a plate induvidually, so if i want to try different windings, or whatnot, i remove the plate break the solder connections and replace to coils.


the maglev part of it, has to stay...if for no other reason than i have already bought 2 very large neo 50s lol. really, if you could see the design you would be like...oh, duh lol thats easy, its just a lot of machining repetative parts, and bolting it together. today, i have been doing cost analysis, and seeing that im doing all the design and machining myself, that just leaves parts, i should be able to get all the aluminum and steel i need for around 500 bucks. id like to do carbon fiber blades (just for aesthetics)  but i dont have an oven, so aluminum will work for now.


the magnets are gonna hurt a bit. i already have $300 in the 2 i got, and i now need (at current count and design) 90 smaller magnets for the PMA. (30 for each layer, one magnet will actually work 2 coils, more efficient). each of those needs to be 1x2x1/2  [n  2 inches  s]  the coils will be 1.5 inch cubes so a 1 inch tall magnet should be fine...

im planning on spending at least 750 dollars on magnets, then 200 for the magnet wire.


IF!!, i can get the EE class to set me up with a inverter, (since it IS a school project lol) then maybe i can save the money there, and buy a good inverter later. i not, then tack on another 2 grand or more. im thinking this thing is gonna make  lots of power, i would like to see 3kw, (the base deign for this makes 5 at 18 mph with large deflectrs) but i will probably only hit that number in 20mph winds, and that doesnt happen often here will probably be a constant 10. we will see when i build it huh?


anyways, not counting the inverter, ill have roughly 2 grand in it. if it works the way i want it to, that will be 2 grand well well spent.


i have seen a 5200W generator, but it needs a low power source to activate it, and must turn at 600 rpm to achieve rated power. so i would need a gearbox. and i would no longer have a "0 friction design." not to mention i dont know how to wire for the "low power source"


i think i've though it through fairly well. i will post some pics of the design when i get it laid out to the point you can tell whats going on. like i said, the hold up was just figuring out what base plate design, but im pretty set on my layered approach now.


ok enough rambling lol..thanks for all you guys input and ill get that book.

« Last Edit: December 06, 2009, 06:38:22 PM by xclr82xtc »

xclr82xtc

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Re: help with axial flux
« Reply #10 on: December 06, 2009, 06:43:04 PM »
btw... would you mind running through one of the calcualtions for me? just using some base numbers?. (you can pick them lol since i have no idea what kind of torque this thing will make till i get it built and test it.)


beyond using your step 1 step 3 approach, i must also figure out  how im going to do the layers...ie will they be stand alone with seperate inverters (i hope not), or will each layer be  tied together...i have sent a few emails regarding wether this is possible. hopefully ill have a response mid week.

« Last Edit: December 06, 2009, 06:43:04 PM by xclr82xtc »

Perry1

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Re: help with axial flux
« Reply #11 on: December 06, 2009, 07:23:55 PM »
Hello,

I like your enthusiasm as well. It is easy to get all wound up when envisioning these systems.


First off, don't get too enamored with you tube videos. Just because a VAWT is spinning does not mean it is making any power. For some reason %95 of the VAWT crowd do not understand the importance of hooking up an ammeter. Ed is the exception I have found.


Before you pull the trigger on this I think you should take a quick step back and research turbine design a bit. This board is a great place for that. You are talking about spending thousands of dollars to build this system and you haven't even performed the basic calculations on how much power this thing will put out. I can't imagine any turbine being pieced together ad-hoc and having good performance under any circumstances. I know mine didn't.


Mag-Lev is a marketing catch phrase for people that want to find venture funding for development. Are you saying that you feel your bearings will be so lossy that you are willing to increase the cost of the turbine 50%? Think about what devices use mag lev and why. Any mag lev bearings in your car? Sounds like a lot of work to pick up a point or two of efficiency.


I'm not trying to dissuade you from building a turbine by any means. In fact as you have seen, many are willing to help and in the end you will end up with a better turbine, and maybe an A in your class!


It would help a ton if you can post a pic or two of your concept. Maybe the CAD drawings. Also some basic specs, like rotor size. I'm not sure if your building a 100 watt or megawatt turbine.


Perry

« Last Edit: December 06, 2009, 07:23:55 PM by Perry1 »

xclr82xtc

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Re: help with axial flux
« Reply #12 on: December 06, 2009, 08:01:05 PM »
im hoping for 3kw..at 20 mph. the Vawt i have seen, the 5 kw version, works and it works well, i have verified proof of it. of course a freind of a freind, i have tinkered with  diffrents models, and with wind conditions here  in NC a VAWT is the most consistant. the maglev actaully wasnt that expensive, 300 dollars for the magnets, and all i need to do is machine slots for them to fit in the center.


the overall diameter of the turbine, is 36 inches, the blades will be 4-5 feet, at 8 inches in width, a lenz II design is being used with some modifications. the plates the blades mount to, will have one pivot hole, and a slot so that i can adjust the blades from straight up, to about 75  degrees...the whole idea behind this is to make it adjustable, so that not only can i use it to make power, i can prototype with it as well. im working on getting pictures up. i'm really hesistant about posting cad drawings as i know there is people out there that would take ideas. not saying any of you would, i just don't want to chance it until i have my engineers blueprints done, and copyrighted. i don't mind posting simple drawings as soon as i figure out how to post pictures though lol.


i know this may be a long shot, but really i dont care, its for a class project, i would love for it to work, but the maglev is all i really care about, and it has ample parts to satisfy my instructors that i will do alot of machining and designing, and shows the proof of concept they require.


of course i REALLY want it to work, but the PMA is the only thing im not sure on.  


if it doesnt work, ill hook an archimedes screw to it and pump something....lol.

« Last Edit: December 06, 2009, 08:01:05 PM by xclr82xtc »

oztules

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Re: help with axial flux
« Reply #13 on: December 06, 2009, 08:02:16 PM »
If you skip the electrical bit, and rely on your mechanical engineering side, work out how much power is available in the wind at 8mph for a 15 sqft block of air....


Power = 0.5 x Swept Area  (1.4sq meters (15sq feet))x Air Density (1.23 kg/m3 at sea level)x Velocity3 (meters/second... call it 4m/s).


Now, multiply that by about .25 for an optimistic figure.

ie .5 x 1.4 x 1.23. x 4x4x4= 55w x .25 (allow for betz and prop efficiency and alternator efficiency)=13w


Don't get too excited with multiple power coils just yet.


............oztules

« Last Edit: December 06, 2009, 08:02:16 PM by oztules »
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Perry1

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Re: help with axial flux
« Reply #14 on: December 06, 2009, 08:03:22 PM »
I pulled a couple of numbers from your posts to help a bit. Here's what I got;




  • VAWT design - assume squirrel cage design as you pointed out on youtube

  • Rotor is 5 ft tall and 36" dia.

  • You mentioned air speeds of 10 mph gusting to 15 mph

  • Just assume 100% efficient rotor and alternator - we will just calculate the power in the wind that this turbine can create in a perfect world.

  • no sails or funnels or clap trap to fall off.




The power in the wind is defined by


Power = 1/2 (air density)*(wind speed cubed)(rotor area)


I chose to use 1/2 the rotor area since half is always spinning upwind.


You will calculate at 10 mph this perfect turbine would create 39 watts of power.


At 15 mph it will make 131 watts


So lets say you actually had an average of 15 mph wind. Then we add in the efficiencies of the rotor (guess 50%) and alternator (guess 50%) and this turbine is putting out 32 watts.


How many grid tie inverters do you want to buy now?


Perry

« Last Edit: December 06, 2009, 08:03:22 PM by Perry1 »

willib

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Re: help with axial flux
« Reply #15 on: December 06, 2009, 08:13:50 PM »
how large are the two magnets that you bought?
« Last Edit: December 06, 2009, 08:13:50 PM by willib »
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oztules

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Re: help with axial flux
« Reply #16 on: December 06, 2009, 08:27:44 PM »
Thats cruel Perry....

He may build a Lenz type where he picks up more on the upwind cycle with lift than the drag on the downwind cycle.... :).... I gave him the benefit of the doubt there.... 1.5sqm (too lazy to do 4.5 feet, used 5' another bonus and near 9mph)..... but I think your probably right.... 13.5/2 sqfeet.


.............oztules

« Last Edit: December 06, 2009, 08:27:44 PM by oztules »
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Perry1

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Re: help with axial flux
« Reply #17 on: December 06, 2009, 08:37:18 PM »
Ha! Maybe a little cruel. I see we both independently picked the same efficiency for this system so at least my cruelty has good company!


Perry

« Last Edit: December 06, 2009, 08:37:18 PM by Perry1 »

ghurd

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Re: help with axial flux
« Reply #18 on: December 06, 2009, 09:22:38 PM »
"i was looking into the gear box because it seems to me most PMA's make more power at higher rpms"

You are making the PMA.  It can be made to make whatever power you want, at whatever RPM you want.


Rotational mass is not relevant, unless you mean for the maglev stuff.


"the amount of torque i want to produce"?

And you know the RPM the blades are designed for.

Horsepower = Torque x RPM / 5252

One Horsepower = 746 Watts.

Then throw out a substantial amount due to "electrical friction" for inefficiencies.

Might get an idea of what you are up against in more ME familiar terms.


"using both poles on certain magnets, making it more efficient"

The standard design 'uses' both poles.


"i also dont want the powerloss that rectification produces"

Nobody does, but it is a necessary evil.  It is not much loss for a high voltage PMA feeding a high voltage input GTI, which is part of why 'real' GTIs have a high voltage input (and little Chinese things have 12V input).


"have multiple "layers" of coils on the same disk"

And a few other things lead me to believe you don't understand the standard design, which you do admit.

I think you would learn something pertinent by reading some of the posts here related to modifying a 12V machine to a 24V machine.  Wire sizes, coil turn counts, coil resistance, etc.


Given it will probably make on the order of a dozen watts, a GTI is not going to be effective because most (guessing) use that much.


Not trying to talk you out of building it, just saying there are laws of physics that are written in stone.  

The end result will be more satisfying if you get a good grip on what is theoretically possible. And what isn't.

G-

« Last Edit: December 06, 2009, 09:22:38 PM by ghurd »
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xclr82xtc

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Re: help with axial flux
« Reply #19 on: December 06, 2009, 09:48:03 PM »
you  make it look so sucky...lol...


if those lowwind turbines on racecom can make 5kws at 20mph wind, with that crapy blade design, then it has to be possible. ...not only that but the actual maglev windturbine, the comercial version makes well over 2kw, with a PMA design. So i know its possible. I think if i build in as much efficiency as possible, then it will make good power, and if it doesnt here where i live, Ill give it to my granddad who lives by the sound lol hes got PLENTY of wind.


i can do the mechanical calculations, but i dont have experiance converting that to a real world electrical output. i guess for that, you would need to know exactly what the PMA can produce. ..im starting to think i should double major lol.

« Last Edit: December 06, 2009, 09:48:03 PM by xclr82xtc »

xclr82xtc

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Re: help with axial flux
« Reply #20 on: December 06, 2009, 10:00:21 PM »
heres the link 250lbs


http://cgi.ebay.com/6-Pcs-3-x1-NdFeB-Neodymium-Super-Strong-Magnets-N42_W0QQitemZ310186873819QQcmdZV
iewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item48389413db


i got 6, but i plan on using only 4, 2 for the bottom and two for the top. the two up top will be significantly far enough apart that they will only repel if the turbine tries to move "up".... a ring style neo magnet is N pole on the outer band, the last row of power coils will have a N pole magnet on the opoposite side of the coil, this will have the double effect of inducing voltage into the coil ( while not as much as a N/S arrangment) and also stablilizing the horizontal axis...this setup will be repeated at the top, only using smaller 1/4 inch magnets on the outer.


 i know 255 lbs is over kill, but i want the magnetic field to be captured inside of the steel casing, i hope this will have the effect of compressing alot of magnetic field in the inner most ring of coils.


i need to draw this out for you. i know its sounds so complicated but its really quite simple. lol

« Last Edit: December 06, 2009, 10:00:21 PM by xclr82xtc »

Perry1

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Re: help with axial flux
« Reply #21 on: December 06, 2009, 10:08:39 PM »
hmmmm,

Are you listening to yourself?


I know it is possible because I saw it on youtube. This proves the very basic power equation for a wind turbine and the very basic physics that describe how they have worked since the dawn of time must be wrong.


Did you notice that all that companies videos have comments and questions disabled?


Did you notice the small disclaimer that says these turbines need huge added on sails to achieve their rated power?


Did you notice that all the power output data on their videos only show voltage?


Did you notice the video of the turbine in the wind tunnel where it is bowing outward in the center? Notice how they pan to the monitoring computer and it only shows windspeed? No power


c'mon dude.


Perry

« Last Edit: December 06, 2009, 10:08:39 PM by Perry1 »

xclr82xtc

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Re: help with axial flux
« Reply #22 on: December 06, 2009, 10:24:11 PM »
i should say produce at a given RPM...


ok lets do it like just do the math  

lets figure 21 coils...seven per phase 1 inch outer diamter (square wrap) 2 inches long..so well say an average diamet of .75 inch, counting in my head, i would say maybe 80 turns so that is


each coil inductance

.75^2 x 80^2 = 3600

3600/1000x(18*.75+40*2) =0.0385


so each coils inductance is .0385  now where do i go from here?

« Last Edit: December 06, 2009, 10:24:11 PM by xclr82xtc »

xclr82xtc

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Re: help with axial flux
« Reply #23 on: December 06, 2009, 10:28:46 PM »
agreed, it looks sketchy, but they have one of those turbines on a cell tower one town over from me. a friend of a freind of mine maintains it. he assures me each month it makes power. i will get the rates from him, but he has no reason to lie to me..


also the maglev, the one jay leno is using, and the one that ed begly(sp?) is using, does work and it is documented.  that turbine is partially manufactured here in NC actually. they work, but you are right the proper thing to do is to do the math...however that said these turbines to make alot of torque, everyone knows that. if it doesnt make the power i want, i can always machine an axle, trash the pma and buy a generator and fit a gear box....either way, im right back to the point of having to build something for class anyways...this is what i designed. this is what i said i was gonna build, now im kinda stuck lol...doesnt hurt to try right?

« Last Edit: December 06, 2009, 10:28:46 PM by xclr82xtc »

Perry1

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Re: help with axial flux
« Reply #24 on: December 06, 2009, 10:42:10 PM »
The turbines Jay and Ed have are made by Pacwind. Look at their website. They rate them at 45mph. A scam ploy to say the least. Pacwind has a power curve on their site. Look at it. It shows that they put out about 20 watts at 15 mph.


Sorry your kinda stuck with this. You might want to scrap the alternator idea and just build the spinning blade with the mag bearings and call it good. You'll still get your grade and not have to shell out good money after bad.


As far as alternator design there are others on here much better suited to help you there than I. By the sound of it you want to build a 3 kW alternator and try to power it with a 30 watt engine. You would be much better suited building a 50-100 alternator. Still some interesting design work to do there. How much money do you want to spend to make 30 watts?


Perry

« Last Edit: December 06, 2009, 10:42:10 PM by Perry1 »

oztules

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Re: help with axial flux
« Reply #25 on: December 06, 2009, 11:20:14 PM »
"i can do the mechanical calculations, but i dont have experiance converting that to a real world electrical output."


Then do the mechanical calculations!


Both Perry1 and I have given you the formula. If you don't believe us then go to a physics site and get it from there.


It is simple.


If you think you have a machine that can make more power out of  whatever type (mechanical/electrical/whatever) than you put in...... then you really do have something to sell.


I have seen superman fly in video's, and Captain Kirk go from star system to star system in minutes on video... so it must be true. Those silly physics laws are made to be broken....


I'm the site simpleton (thanks Tom, I'm #1 at something), you needn't listen to me, but Perry is the real deal, the kind of thing your aspiring to be.... I'd listen to him.


When the village idiot "gets it", and you don't, it's time to wonder whether you have got it right


When you finally take the time to do the calcs, then you can design a PMA to suite. You can build a 30kw alternator and bang it on the end, but you still wont get more than a handful of watts at 9mph.... do the math.....you don't get something for nothing. maglev, big alternator or whatever... as soon as a strong magnet is involved, people seem to think they can get overunity.


I can take a horse to water, but I can't make him drink.


I hope you do a great job on your mechanical device, and I do hope you will finally understand why it didn't make a fraction of the power you anticipated.


I'll say no more on the matter.


..............oztules

« Last Edit: December 06, 2009, 11:20:14 PM by oztules »
Flinders Island Australia

xclr82xtc

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Re: help with axial flux
« Reply #26 on: December 07, 2009, 12:45:34 AM »
the mills they are using are enviro-energies


http://www.jaylenosgarage.com/video/clips/magnetic-wind-turbine/913522/


your formulas make no ssense to me...as far as i know you calculate PMA power by how much 1 coil makes with 1 rpm. example of 1 rpm 1 v 1 amp ...( i know i know just an example) simplest explanation i can think of is changing to an electric water pump on my bike. after all the calculations we found the mechanical pump used 3 hp...but the electrical use 1/3 horse power while moving the same amount of water...same thing here, but backwards, what cant 30 watts of mechanical power be translated into more electrical power...i mean i get the over unity thing, i dont beleive in free energy or whatever you want to call it, but explian to me how a home built pma, just spinnning it as fast as you can by hand, can make 50v? that design is on this site i believe. 50 volts and .3 amps is the same as 25v and .6amp right? i mean forgive me for being clueless, i would really like to understand this lol.  i guess what im saying is if the windmill will turn 100rpm in a 8mph wind, and your making good voltage/wattage their, then why does the energy output increase exponentially when you go up just 1mph? thats only roughly a 10 percent gain, but yet you see more than a 10 percent gain at your generator...how can we harness this more effectively? you see what im getting at?..


i know im talking outta my ass, im the first to admit i dont understand electricity..lol i mean come on, im the guy that put in pergo flooring with a 1200 watt subwoofer and a 3 ton ac unit lol. (that was pretty funny actually)


if you build it, they will come hahahaha.


anyways thanks for all the advice..ill set out trying to do some calculations and get back to you guys, ill also post some drawings when i figure out how. lol


(ps, ill also be doing simulations with the completed cad design to see if i can get some good numbers as far as torque output for use with a gear box)

« Last Edit: December 07, 2009, 12:45:34 AM by xclr82xtc »

xclr82xtc

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Re: help with axial flux
« Reply #27 on: December 07, 2009, 12:56:54 AM »
it seems to me that the 32 watt out put you came up with is the amount of mechanical wattage created by the wind on the turbine...


is that right? because i get the same answer..were not creating energy from air here, we are taking power from the magnets....(i know you know that)


so if i have 21 coils times 5 layers...that would be 105 coils,  lets say it takes 32 watts of mechanical energy to break the cog effect and make 1rpm...(which it wont take anywhere near that as far as i can tell) then for heaven sakes whats the formula  to find out how much power 1 coil makes? we know the inductance of each coil? i assume i need to find out some info on the magnets right? and i will also need to know the speed which the coil passes through the feild...thats simple enough.


im gonna figure this out.

« Last Edit: December 07, 2009, 12:56:54 AM by xclr82xtc »

xclr82xtc

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Re: help with axial flux
« Reply #28 on: December 07, 2009, 01:01:53 AM »
Faradays law!!! Thats what i was looking for! anyone want to help with this lol


http://www.6pie.com/faradayslaw.php

« Last Edit: December 07, 2009, 01:01:53 AM by xclr82xtc »

Perry1

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Re: help with axial flux
« Reply #29 on: December 07, 2009, 01:42:58 AM »
"is that right? because i get the same answer..were not creating energy from air here, we are taking power from the magnets....(i know you know that)"


Oh lordy, the wheels have come off now. Are you really an engineering student? Have they not taught you Newtons laws? I have laid it all out for you given very simple math that is taught prior to high school.


Magnets don't make any power. They are lumps of matter that sit there and do nothing until you move them. you moving them over a coil is what makes power.


There are so many websites (this one included) that show on a very basic level how these things work. Please do a little research and come back and we can have a real discussion.


I am starting to think you are just someone trolling here with these comments.

Perry

« Last Edit: December 07, 2009, 01:42:58 AM by Perry1 »

xclr82xtc

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Re: help with axial flux
« Reply #30 on: December 07, 2009, 01:57:24 AM »
assuming 2 inch 4 layer coils, 80 turns, speed @ 1 RPM.....= 1 coil(80turns) every 1.123 seconds 4turns every .05615 seconds (times this by 21 coils and 30 magnets and you start to see the potential)


magnet surface field is 6403 gauss.

distance from magnet is .25in

average diameter of coil is .75 inch


now i have to learn faradays law really quick..ill get back to you with the results...am doing math for v out at 1rpm (outermost layer of coils)


btw..i have learned that i would need to hook each layer in parrallel to get the most amperage, and that with the proper coil design i can acheive 120vac at my target of 8mph...we will see from here..im getting there.

« Last Edit: December 07, 2009, 01:57:24 AM by xclr82xtc »

xclr82xtc

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Re: help with axial flux
« Reply #31 on: December 07, 2009, 02:00:29 AM »
lol...no no..not a troll. i think we were just on different pages in  our conversation..i have re read and i understand the point you were trying to make..see the post above..im trying to figure out the power output. im not worried about the mill turing, i know it will, i need power output. i didnt take an advanced physics class though so i was never exposed to faradays law. just the basic newtonian laws etc etc..(i think it was general physics or something like that? mostly thermal stuff)
« Last Edit: December 07, 2009, 02:00:29 AM by xclr82xtc »

Perry1

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Re: help with axial flux
« Reply #32 on: December 07, 2009, 02:19:09 AM »
No, it does not appear that you understand at all and I don't think I can explain it in any simpler terms.


At 15 mph your rotor will be exposed to 131 watts of wind power. The rotor will convert it to 65.5 watts of mechanical power and the alternator will turn that into 33 watts of electrical power.


Perry

« Last Edit: December 07, 2009, 02:19:09 AM by Perry1 »