Lowe's starts selling solar

[zap]

http://www.palmbeachpost.com/money/solar-power-coming-to-a-store-near-you-111923.html

"Solar power coming to a store near you"

http://www.smartplanet.com/technology/blog/thinking-tech/lowes-move-to-sell-solar-panels-will-accele



rate-renewables/2370/

"Lowe's Andalay panel maximally generates 175 watts..."

"The Andalay panels cost $893 each..."

$5.10/watt before taxes but also before any incentives/rebates.  Doesn't seem too bad to me but it's still out of my reach.

One thing I thought was odd... the panels have a 25 year warranty but the micro-inverter only has 15?!?!?

Sounds like warranties in the automotive industry.  Maybe the wiring only has a 2 year warranty?  heh

[DamonHD]

Inverters are commonly assumed to have a shorter life than the panels.  Nothing odd there.

The panel is a fairly simple beast, and unless it physically breaks or water gets in, it will simply slowly drop in performance over time.

The inverter however is a very complex item with many components under great stress.

Rgds

Damon

[zap]

All true... I just never liked the warranty scheme on automobiles.

I understand why they do it the way they do, I just don't care for it.

Maybe they could do prorated warranty on the inverter or something.  As if...

 

[Bruce S]

Hey Zap;

 Did you read the whole post of "http://www.palmbeachpost.com/money/solar-power-coming-to-a-store-near-you-111923.html" ?

 At about the 13th paragraph, the writer makes a whole bunch of boo-boos

Quote " The rectangular panels retail at $893 a piece. They produce the same AC power that runs in homes and plug directly into a circuit breaker.

During the day, the solar panels will act like a large battery, producing energy from the sun and pumping it through the circuit breaker to appliances inside. "

Ooops AC from the panels?

Someone might want to let them know of the mistake

Good read though, I have two close to home and will wait to see when they start offering them.

Cheers

Bruce S

[RandomJoe]

Actually, the new "hot thing" with many starting out in solar is a small inverter mounted to the back of the solar panel.  They get paralleled together then connected to a 120V circuit.  The company I've heard about is Enphase, don't know if there are any others yet.

Their big selling point is that you don't have to go all-out at once, you can purchase just a few panels to start and keep adding more as you desire.

Of course, you're also mounting a grid-tie inverter packed with electronics to the back side of a solar panel on the roof.  They claim the things are going to last 15 years, but it sure does get mighty hot on my roof during the summer...

Last I read about them, you also don't have your own monitoring gear.  You have to connect to the Internet, the inverters send data to Enphase's servers, and you get your own web page on their system to see how your solar system is performing.

There are also a couple other companies manufacturing small grid-tie style inverters that you can purchase separately, then pair with the panel of your choice and just plug into an outlet in the house, but neither is UL listed so technically they aren't legal to use in the US.  (As in, the power companies would be very unhappy to find out you hooked it up.)  Someone on the NAWS website did some testing with one and found it did work as advertised, though.  Syncs with grid, produces power, automatically shuts down if grid goes down.

[freejuice]

5.10 a watt, ouch... please tell me that's installed too!

 I have no affliation with these folks but you can buy a grid tie system for much cheaper if you are DIY'er    http://sunelec.com/

 All the best

 Gavin

[zap]

I saw that Bruce... all I could do was shake my head.  There was a bunch of mistakes on another site talking about the same thing and they made it sound like all you needed was a bunch of these panels then you could go off grid... excuse me?  LOL... grid tie w/out the grid!  Technology is wonderful...

[zap]

Yup Joe, these panels use the Enphase inverters.

[freejuice]

Hi Floks if you folks are into enphase inverters here is an interesting web site to check out, this guy has real time, daily and life time solar KW porduction.

 His place in in Maine..probaly not quite as well suited for solar as the sunny South and his setup is not facing sloar south...however it's darn interesting!

 He has some goon information about his solar system, setup etc. decision to use enphase etc etc.

Here you go: http://www.arttec.net/SolarPower/9_Stats/index.htm

 All the best

 Gavin

[GaryGary]

Hi,

I just finished putting in an Enphase micro-inverter system:

http://www.builditsolar.com/Projects/PV/EnphasePV/Main.htm

The systems are done with a separate micro-inverter on each PV panel.  You also get an gadget they call an EMU that you plug into the wall.  The EMU communicates with the micro-inverters over the power line, and collects data on how much each inverter is producing and any error/status messages the inverter sends out.  The EMU in turn can connect to the Enphase site, and they will put up a webpage for your PV system that provides a lot of very nice and detailed reporting on the system.  But, if you don't want to do that, you can hook your PC right to the EMU via an eithernet cable and get fairly good reporting on the system.  Its not as detailed as the web based reporting, but its as good as most string inverters for regular PV systems provide.

This is the Enphase performance page for my system:

http://www.builditsolar.com/Projects/PV/EnphasePV/RealTime.htm

One neat little thing to note -- if you go to the display that shows output from each panel, you can actually see that the most east panel gets a little shading from the fence very early in the morning, and it cuts its output compared to the other panel for the first few minutes of sun.

My internet connection is a bit flaky, so it might not be right up to date.

I was skeptical of the web based reporting, and thought it was mostly marketing fluff, but I have to say I've become a bit of a believer.  I think its kind of nice that they will send you an email when the system is having problems!

The web based reporting does cost you $2 per year per panel if you subscribe to it.

I bought a package from wholesalesolar.com -- it was 10 panels, 2150 STC watts at $4.13 per watt including inverters, mounting rails,... By the time I was done with the ground racks, and wiring supplies and everything else it came to $4.63 per STC watt before rebates -- about $3 per watt after the federal and MT rebates.  So far its working fine.

I did the whole install myself, and it was pretty straight forward -- even the wiring is pretty simple.

One thing I like about it is that you can start with as little as one PV panel and inverter, and expand as budget allows -- you don't even have to get the same PV panels that you started with for the expansion as each panel gets its own MPPT tracking from its own inverter.  They sell starter kits with just one panel for $900.

Gary

[zap]

That 'real time' page is pretty neat Gary, thanks for sharing that.

It's kind of sad seeing all the panels dark... of course it's almost 9pm. : )

I'll need to read the whole thing but before I do, are the panels vertically adjustable?  Did you set it up so you might be able to use a tracker in future?

Only reason I ask is... I've always remembered your inflatable heliostat from when your site was pretty new.

[RandomJoe]

Good to know about the reporting.  I don't necessarily need anything as detailed as the graphs and such on your webpage, but hope they at least let you see individual panel performance - even if just real-time - through the local connection.  I could cobble together my own web pages that pull data, display graphs and archive.  That's the major gripe I had with the idea, being tied to an ongoing contract just to see how my system is performing when there isn't any need for it!

Of course, my point in putting up solar was to have power if/when the grid went down, so grid-tie inverters on the panels aren't too useful in that application...  It would frustrate me no end to have several kW of production capacity on the roof and no way to use it in an outage!  (My grid isn't - or didn't used to be - particularly unreliable, but I've had two multi-hour outages since putting in my solar system last spring.)

It will certainly be interesting to see how the electronics handle being out in the elements over time.

[DamonHD]

Hi,

You know that you can get units from Xantrex, SMA ("Backup Blocker"), and others, that go between the grid and your house and act as a whole-house UPS, and some of them are quite happy to charge the batteries (etc) from whatever grid-tie inverters are downstream of them, even if the grid outside your house is down.

Rgds

Damon

[GaryGary]

Hi,

I did go into the design with thoughts about having a tracking system and/or just having an adjustable tilt mount.

I decided against the tracking system just because of all the complexity it adds.  Not saying its a bad idea, but I just wanted to keep it simple this time.

The adjustable tilt could be done without a lot of effort, but, as far as I could tell using PVWatts, it just does not buy you a lot.  There is a graph on this page that shows the gain:

http://www.builditsolar.com/Projects/PV/EnphasePV/PanelLocation.htm

While our winds are generally tame, we do get some real howlers at times, and its easier to build really sturdy mounts if everything is fixed.

On the grid tie vs off-grid vs grid-tie with battery backup.  I started the process being certain that I wanted a grid-tie with battery backup, but more and more as I looked at the extra cost, complexity and work, it just did not seem worth it.  Our grid power is quite reliable, and we already have a small generator that can run a couple key things like fridge and furnace.  In the several years since we got the generator, there was only one occasion where by the time I got the gen out and gassed the power was still off -- and that was only for half an hour.

Gary

[zap]

Gary that is an excellent write up on your system.

I haven't read, but have skipped through most all of it. If that was my system I would probably be watching the 'panel output page' all day long!

That dinosaur is pretty neat... is that a climbing wall on the side of it?

I certainly understand wanting to have the panels hug the ground as much as possible.  Looking at some of the pictures on your site, I can imagine the wind really howling through your place at times.

I went a little further with my "Trash Tracker" last year and set it up with some gearing.  I was working towards an automatic door opener/closer for a batch water heater.  I think I got up to about 5 lbs of torque before I started breaking teeth off of gears, they were plastic gears from printer/scanners.  I can envision a bit bigger system than my tracker easily handling vertical tracking on something like yours.

I quit working on the tracker when I started on the electric bike trailer and haven't started back on it yet although I intend to.

Good luck with your system!

[Bruce S]

Joe;

 Thanks for the update !!

I gotta get out more.

That would make setting them up much simpiler for the homeowner, I think.

I'll keep watching for the two close to me.

Thanks!!

Bruce S

[RandomJoe]

Oh, I know it!  I am continually tempted to go with the Xantrex system, but may wait to see what the "next gen" product is going to be, supposed to come out soon, so I hear...

But then the other "annoyance" of grid-tie steps in, I'm a hobbyist who likes to play with his system, and the power company and city want me to have the installed system inspected and up to code in order to grid-tie.

So, in the end, mine is an off-grid system and likely to stay that way for the near future! ;p

[GaryGary]

Hi Zap,

The automatic opening insulating door for a batch heater sounds really interesting.  I've often thought that if a good, simple, reliable way could be worked out to have good night insulation that it would make batch heaters much more effective, and extend their season as well.

I worked for a while on paper with one that basically pulled a cylindrical curtain up around a vertical cylinder tank at night, and let it drop during the daytime.  It was based on seeing a big cylindrical garbage can like container for raking up leaves in the fall-- when you weren't using the container, it just collapsed down to the floor and did not take up any space. The way it retained its shape was via a spiral of stiffening material that kept it round, but let it collapse down to near zero height -- pretty clever.

I'd be very interested in hearing about anything you end up doing on this.

--

The dinosaur is a toy for grand kids visits -- I got a bit carried away on it:

http://www.builditsolar.com/Projects/Educational/Dino/SolarDino.htm

The ironic thing is that the solar powered dino horn has come on all by itself a couple times in the middle of very cold nights -- definitely gets your attention

Gary

[DamonHD]

You've found me out... That's why a keep a separate off-grid system to play with, or at least one of the reasons!

Rgds

Damon

[ghurd]

I never understood why anyone would think small grid tie inverters are a good idea.

And I wonder how many they will sell... to save money on the electric bill.

Where I live, best numbers I can find for KWH:

In 2005 was $0.083.

In 2008 was about >$0.10.

Only real price I can find is a contract for $0.0688.

There are other charges, some fixed and some (I guess) are related to KWH used.

I read a web page about understanding your electric bill, which condensed basically said "Trust the bill is correct, or call someone who can explain it."

I can't quite figure it out so I'll say $0.10/KWH.

The PV is 175W and I'll say the inverter is 90% efficient.

Here averages about 4.5 hours of insolation.

That's 0.709KWH/day.

Or $0.070875 saved per day.

Panel costs $893.  I figure DIY installation will cost about $157.  $1050.

It would cost me a LOT more because it would need, start to finish, done by a licensed union electrician. That's my problem, so I won't include the cost, which would be a LOT.

Then any power company paperwork and inspection fees, building permits (which are known to increase property tax here), etc, which I won't include.

So $1050 payback is 14815 days.  40 years and 7 months.

If I was to do it totally like it is supposed to be done, probably cost over $2000.

With $0.0688/kwh, payback is well over 100 years.

G-

[GaryGary]

Hey Ghurd,

I think this all depends on where you live and how much of the work you want to do yourself.

For my system, total cost before rebates was $9959 and $6471 after rebates.  This is for 2150 STC watts, or $3.01 per watt.  This is with me doing all the work.

Total for permits etc was only $45 for the electrical permits.  MT (and many other states) don't add PV arrays to your assessed home value.

For us, PVWatts predicts the system will generate 3073 KWH a year with a saving of 8 cents per KWH, this is $250 a year.  This is a return of 4%, and this is tax free, and fuel price inflation protected.  So, not great, but not totally awful either.  

In some states with big rebate programs you can do a lot better.  

CO2 reduction for our system is about 4600 lbs a year.

More here:

http://www.builditsolar.com/Projects/PV/EnphasePV/Economics.htm

Its interesting how poorly it compares to other energy saving projects.

The Enphase micro-inverters are selling like hot cakes.  Wholesale Solar (where I got mine) said they have a hard time keeping them in stock, and had 200 on order at the time I called.

Gary

[zap]

Gary, in case you didn't see the trash tracker story... http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2008/12/18/0498/0732

What I've done since then is gut an old Makita cordless drill of it's motor and put a small motor/gear box from some toy (I can't remember what I tore it out of) in it's place.

Using one of the solar panels from the trash tracker it was able to do quite a bit of work with very little wattage... albeit over a long time span... i.e. perfect for day long tracking purposes.

I think it would work for a solar curtain, batch lid cover, or probably even let window blinds track the sun.   I think it was something on the order of a 1/3 of a watt.

I'm hoping to get back to work on it soon.  I'll keep you informed.

[GaryGary]

Hi ZAP,

That's really clever.

I was thinking about a PV driven gearmotor to power the movable insulation out of the way when the sun was on it, but was having trouble figuring out how to get the insulation back in place with no sun -- thought about gravity, but the gearmotors seem to take a lot of torque to backdrive.  The RTE thing you worked out might be a good way to get the insulation back in place at the end of day?

Please do let me know if you do more work on this.

Gary

[ghurd]

Before the rebates, our payback numbers are only off by 10 months.

G-

[zap]

I had a few ideas on the tracker before I moved on to the trailer.

One:

For simple, one way tracking (such as a solar cooker) and for raising a lid or something similar, only one panel is needed.  The RTE function can be used to reset the position. I think some form of the RTE could be used for your movable insulation.

Two:

Something always bugged me 'in the back of my mind' about the battery powered RTE function.  In the summer as I was working on the trailer I was having a 'brain fart' on how to build some part of the it, I forget which.

I was looking at the tracker as I contemplated the trailer and realized that enabling the RTE function had disabled the original charge function.  So... another way to charge up the batteries would be needed or another solar light circuit with panel added.

The circuit for the Malibu solar lights is fairly straight forward.  I sent ghurd photos and part numbers of the circuit which he was going to reverse engineer but I never heard back from him on that.

I will probably start a new thread on the tracker soon and see if anyone has any more ideas.

[ghurd]

Coincidence.

'Should' be building one today.  Things rarely go like they should.

I did not find the Malibu circuit particularly useful.  IIRC, it depended purely on voltage, which can change with the sun and battery voltage.

What I came up with is a cross between about 10 others, hopefully simpler.

Uses 2 yard light PVs.  Only tracks West.  RTE is controlled with the same 2 PVs (Thanks Amanda!).

The Dude that wants to use it has a dish actuator. Those things have the switches built-in in sort of the wrong places, which complicated it in my mind.

Should be a simple solution for a simple tracker.

G-