Off Grid

[ghurd]

That 1st one's price is probably an OSHA thing?

An $100 blade and a $100 motor, in an approved holder?

Can get 7W CFLs in a sort-of-semi-oversized candelabra size bulb with E27 base.

I use one in my desk lamp. Lights of America brand cheapie.  Slow to get bright, but OK after that.  It would be easy to make as much light with a pile of good 5mm LEDs and 12V.

This one was made for a chandelier but sure would look funny!

G-

[DamonHD]

ES14s too, G.  I have two.

(Now why does a US-oriented fitting, ie the Edison Screw, get its base measured in mm?  Surely some EU nation needs to get invaded for that outrage?)

Rgds

Damon

[ghurd]

My best guess is E27 is a generic size for a bulb base that fits in a 120 year old 1" socket, depending on who, where and how it is measured.

It leaves about 1/16" dia (1/32"r) for clearance, which sounds like enough... usually... unless the AL base bulbs are in a damp basement or bathroom... then refer to the potato extraction method.

Remember, the measurements are in Chinese metric, where everything is actually made.

If anyone plans on invading China, they better anticipate doing it in darkness, because they will stop shipping the invaders light bulbs, CFL, LED, etc.

<my rant for the day is on its way!>

If it is mass produced, it's made in China.  Possibly because nobody else is willing to do it.

I received 500 pounds (weight, not monetary currency) of tiny custom relays from Taiwan today (again) because nobody in this hemisphere I could find was willing to manufacture them, at any cost.

Maybe if the smaller factories know what this stuff costs to ship, they could add that to their costs to make a profit, and my stuff would retail cheaper so I could sell more, and everybody would be happy?  (except China)

[redoverfarm]

Outback inverters come factory set for reasonable default values. Not ideal for every situation or need so you can connect a "Mate" to it which allows you to monitor and configure the  Outback line of equipment. Once it is configured you no longer need the Mate.<p>
It allows you to place the Mate a couple hundred feet away from the inverter so you can monitor and control / configure it from another location. It uses standard Cat5 network cables. You can also monitor the Mate with a computer if you are so inclined.<p>
I used mine for a year without a Mate but borrowed one to set it up to suit my needs. Lots of parameters can be configured. <p>
Just to clarify what Allan mentioned. <p>
Tom

Tom if I understand you correctly that the Outback can be operated w/o the mate with the factory defaults.  I feel this might better suit me at this time and I wilo try to find someone that has one to use if this doesn't work out.  There are people in the county that do have solar supplement so I would imagine that someone would have one in use to borrow to reconfigure.  Just getting started I probably would just wait if that is possible.

BTW I did check with a somewhat local Sams's club a,bd they never heard of the T-105's.  They did however have a EGC2 Energizer 6v golf cart battery which was 220 amp for about $74. 

[Volvo farmer]

Tom if I understand you correctly that the Outback can be operated w/o the mate with the factory defaults.  I feel this might better suit me at this time and I wilo try to find someone that has one to use if this doesn't work out.  There are people in the county that do have solar supplement so I would imagine that someone would have one in use to borrow to reconfigure.  Just getting started I probably would just wait if that is possible.

Things may have changed since 2006, but when I bought my Outback VFX3524, it was factory set for something like 8AAC charging from a generator. The maximum was more like 20A, and if you want to get the most battery charging from your generator fuel, you will definitely want to change that factory setting to the max.

If you Google Search "outback power", you'll find they have a wonderful forum, full of helpful people (many of them installers) over there. You might post your proposed system over there and see what they say about it.

[wolfie]

thats the one, it is a t-105 equivalent

[stevend]

The Outback system uses straight through (not crossover) CAT5e communication cable with RJ-45 connectors on the ends. You can buy this at many computer stores, consumer electronics stores, electronics stores, even Home Depot I think, ... I've used store-bought cable for connecting a Mate when the cable that came with the Mate wasn't long enough - works fine. I point this out because if you're borrowing a Mate, the person who owns it may have routed their cable through their walls so that they can have it in a convenient location and may not want to extract the cable for you to use.
-Steve
http://rimstar.org/renewnrg

[redoverfarm]

Tom if I understand you correctly that the Outback can be operated w/o the mate with the factory defaults.  I feel this might better suit me at this time and I wilo try to find someone that has one to use if this doesn't work out.  There are people in the county that do have solar supplement so I would imagine that someone would have one in use to borrow to reconfigure.  Just getting started I probably would just wait if that is possible.

Things may have changed since 2006, but when I bought my Outback VFX3524, it was factory set for something like 8AAC charging from a generator. The maximum was more like 20A, and if you want to get the most battery charging from your generator fuel, you will definitely want to change that factory setting to the max.

If you Google Search "outback power", you'll find they have a wonderful forum, full of helpful people (many of them installers) over there. You might post your proposed system over there and see what they say about it.

VF I did visit them and they are helping alot.  I found out that there was a change in the default settings and I think this is what they are now according to some there.

"The VFX3648 has a default setting of 40 amps; that's about ideal for 8 L-16 batteries at 48 volts. The VFX3524 has a default setting of 76 amps;"

Thanks again.

[redoverfarm]

Well after some discussion both on/off the forum I think I have narrowed my search to a Magnum MS 4448 AE and a 48 volt system.  There are issues with the well which I think can be handled better with a 230/240 volt pump which the Magnum can handle with only one inverter vs. Outback. Originally  had thought that the optional storage tank and surflow pump would be more efficent but it appears that is not the case,  "With the 240-volt pumps, the increase in efficiency alone is about enough to provide pressurization without using any additional energy with a second pump."  If I understand the Magnum information it can also be fed with 220/240 from the generator whereas the Outback cannot..

These are some of the optional equipment that was suggested to utilize.  Can anyone see any problems or have any suggestions of alternative components that would be better suited or more competitively priced.

MS 4448 AE $2160
MMP Breaker panel $570
MMP-MP mounting bracket $100
ME-RC50 control panel $190
Battery monitor $160
Battery temperature sensor $30

  

[redoverfarm]

Well it has been sometime since my last post but I thought I would update to reflect that my system was put into operation around May 2010 . The system was detailed in my last post.   It has served me well.  I had decided on the EcoGen 6KW propane generator with a AGS and BMK which pretty well operates on it's own.  There is a drain on the battery bank with the Inverter search feature, Generator controller and Generator battery charger when not in use.  Even so the generator only comes on every 4 days when the cabin is vacant and then so for only 2.5 hours.  The well pump is the biggest drain being 9.8 amps AC which converted to DC is approximately 30 amps.  Since this is a learning process for me I envision adding to the battery bank in the future to gain more storage.   Again I would like to thank all the members of the board who provided me with information to get to this point.   I thought I would post a picture of the finished product. 

 

[DamonHD]

Thanks for the update!

Damon

[redoverfarm]

Well that is what I get for posting how well the electrical system has functioned.  It was installed in 9/11 and has worked flawlessly since then until this week.  I had a combination of factors which put it into aray.  One being a faulty controller on the Generator which signaled "low oil pressure".  Of course with that occurring the generator would not start to allow the batteries to be charged after getting a signal from the Automatic Generator Start feature.  To compound the problem I had a faulty Hydrometer which read 1.30 Specific Gravity which in fact was in the 1.20 vicinity.  The AGS has a LBCO(Low battery cut out) which is suppose to turn off the inverter/power.  It was set at 60% or 46VDC. 

My question to those working with battery banks is there a way to rejuvinate the batteries.  I have ran the charger several times and the SOC shows 100% after which and the voltage is the same as checked with a volt meter so I feel the internal inverter/ Battery Monitor is working correctly. I had also ran a equalization charge in between charging cycles.  Someone suggested that I try to charge each battery individually and then reinstall them into the bank.  I am open for any suggestions.

[thirteen]

No magic smoke from the batteries so I would check and charge each battery. You may have a weak one if your still having problems. Most batteries can withstand some abuse. I would send a few short letters to some manufactures just incase they may have had other problems with their stuff. Nice but with questions. They might send you replacement parts. 13

[redoverfarm]

The batteries are 200-220 AH Golf Cart and have already gone past their warranty period.  The equipment that failed is under warranty and going to be replaced.;  I took an individual readings (Specific Gravity) and all are low so I assume( that all have gone aray.  Thanks for your reply.

[birdhouse]

maybe it's just the photo, but your battery leads look a bit on the skinny side.  are the main battery leads warm to the touch when the genny is charging the bank? 

assuming you have a 48v system, it looks like you have a total of eight 6v batteries in series.  if this is the case, the batteries on either ends of the main cables may be hurting a bit.  you could swap them with some in the middle of the string.  or pull them out and charge them individually as others have stated, then swap them with batteries from the middle. 

if they were mine, i'd also equalize them pretty hard.  let them boil for 4-5 hours while making sure you aren't boiling them dry. 

46v disconnect is far too low in my opinion.  you're doing damage at that point.  sulfation is hard to reverse once it has began!  but again, my opinion. 

adam

[redoverfarm]

maybe it's just the photo, but your battery leads look a bit on the skinny side.  are the main battery leads warm to the touch when the genny is charging the bank? 

assuming you have a 48v system, it looks like you have a total of eight 6v batteries in series.  if this is the case, the batteries on either ends of the main cables may be hurting a bit.  you could swap them with some in the middle of the string.  or pull them out and charge them individually as others have stated, then swap them with batteries from the middle. 

if they were mine, i'd also equalize them pretty hard.  let them boil for 4-5 hours while making sure you aren't boiling them dry. 

46v disconnect is far too low in my opinion.  you're doing damage at that point.  sulfation is hard to reverse once it has began!  but again, my opinion. 

adam

Adam no problem with the leads or cables.  I did equalize them after charging twice. One for 3 hrs and again for 1 hour and it did not seem to bring them up any.  Normally they will hold for about 3 days before charging and then it only takes about 2-1/2 hrs.  I am going up to check on them today to see if they have held from the 15th or not.  I may just disconnect and try charging individually.  Anything is worth a try rather than loosing them.  Thanks

[thirteen]

Possible you have gotten a ghost draw from something in your controls? Just a thought. 13

[redoverfarm]

Yes that was my first thought but checked all the settings and seem to be OK.  Also disconnected all the cabin circuits as a effort to narrow things down. 

[birdhouse]

i just re-read the first few pages of this thread. 

at what voltage is your genny triggered to fire up when the batts need charging? 

an early quote from volvo farmer:

I will say this. If you are not planning on being there for long periods of time, and you only have a generator to recharge batteries, you are going to be very very hard on those batteries. An unattended set of batteries would benefit very much from a solar panel or three keeping them topped off during extended absences.

have you added solar yet?  if your batts are regularly hitting 48v with mininmal hardwear loads before the genny auto fires, your killing them.  batteries are expensive, and most of us here spend quite a bit of energy and $ to keep them alive as long as possible. 

i'm starting to wonder if your recent controls mishap was just the straw that broke the camels back.  i really hope this isn't the case, but the more details you can give us the better we can offer potential solutions for the future.  IE:  what is the guage of the battery interconnects and main runs, what is the inverter LVD set at?  at what voltage does the genny kick on?  any long wire runs?  how much does the temp of the batts fluctuate?  how much if any water have you added to the batts, if ever?  ect ect ect...

i have a similar off grid spot as you with similar batts.  they still act new after ~6years.  just 400w of solar in my system tops the batts off nearly every day while the system is unattended.  ocassionally i have to run a genny for charging while the place is in use if it's too cloudy. 

i've gone a step past cfl, and only run led.  makes a huge difference!  i run chinese junkers direct off 24v.

i'm so anal about keeping batts in good shape that i even have a solar panel mounted to the roof of my excavator!  that was a spendy batt, and i want it to last as long as possible. 

adam

[redoverfarm]

Birdhouse the generator is set to start at 46volts &/or 60%SOC.  I am not sold on the BMK as it to me doesn't appear correct in that even at 48.4 volts it is still indicating 94% SOC.  If I went with the readings on the BMK it would be well below 46 volts before reaching the 50% SOC.  When I discovered the equipment malfunction the voltage was a 46% but the BMK indicated 84% SOC. 

The leads.  Don't smack my hands.  They are 4AWG wires.  Before you say anything they do not get even warm during the charging or equalization period.  There is less than 2' from the battery bank to the inverter.  So there doesn't seem to be that much resistance because of size or they would get warm or hot. Correct?

The batteries are Golf Cart 6 volts.  Not sure but am told that they are in the area of 200-220 AH.  The only info is a factory tag that states 105 min @ 75amps. 

The resting period between charges usually runs 2-3 days with only hardware drains such as the inverter.  Not exactly sure what those might be but the inverter indicates 25 watts which I assume is per hr.  The BMK shows <.6 watts.  There is a charger for the generator battery which I AGAIN assume is a trinkle charger which draws off the battery bank.

I ran a charge cycles last night and equalized for 3 hours and the Specific Gravity did improve somewhat. I checked this morning and the cells had risen to mostly standard 1.225 with some upward to 1.260.  After and during the charge/equalization the BMK indicated the battery temperature of 53F with an ambient room temp of 50F. 

I have since raised the start volts to 47.2 and initiated another charging cycle as I speak.  I will check to see what the SG readings are after that is complete and the are allowed to settle some.  Will let you know what I get then.

This is all a learning process for me.  So that is why I did not invest in an expensive battery aray.  I figured that if I was going to burn them up I would not be out that much.  They have worked fine for the last two years up until the charger was unable to come on because of the generator malfunction.

[birdhouse]

redover-
i think that BMK thing is kicking over the genny far too late.  if your bank is sitting at 48v you're at roughly half full.  46 is far below that.  i'd almost think of raising the setpoint further IF that's the only step you're going to take.  there are other steps but they would all copdst money...   

25w is continious on the inverter.  AKA 25 watt hours.  or .6KHW per day.  that's significant! especially if it's only on to use its charge function and the tender for the genny batt. 

even one small solar panel ($40-50) for the genny batt could make a significant difference in duration between genny starts.  "battery tender brand now makes charge controllers for just this purpose.  they're ~$25. 

another step, that is going to seem really backwards, is to buy a separate charger for your big bank so the inverter doesn't have to left on.  i know, i know, you paid good money for that inverter to have the charging option...     this would eliminate the .6KWH per day drain on your bank. 

maybe:http://www.geniuschargers.com/shop/GEN2
i've been thinking about buying the larger version.  i emailed the company, and they claim you can double up the leads to get the full 20A into one bank.  they don't recommend more than doubling, but i'm guessing you could get the 40A version and put all four leads to your one bank...

with the above two steps, you could probably go a week or more between genny starts. 

sounds like your batts are slowly coming back!  that's good!  4AWG isn't THAT bad...

adam

[redoverfarm]

redover-
i think that BMK thing is kicking over the genny far too late.  if your bank is sitting at 48v you're at roughly half full.  46 is far below that.  i'd almost think of raising the setpoint further IF that's the only step you're going to take.  there are other steps but they would all copdst money...   

I did raise it to 47.2 V

25w is continious on the inverter.  AKA 25 watt hours.  or .6KHW per day.  that's significant! especially if it's only on to use its charge function and the tender for the genny batt. 

even one small solar panel ($40-50) for the genny batt could make a significant difference in duration between genny starts.  "battery tender brand now makes charge controllers for just this purpose.  they're ~$25. 

another step, that is going to seem really backwards, is to buy a separate charger for your big bank so the inverter doesn't have to left on.  i know, i know, you paid good money for that inverter to have the charging option...     this would eliminate the .6KWH per day drain on your bank. 

maybe:http://www.geniuschargers.com/shop/GEN2
i've been thinking about buying the larger version.  i emailed the company, and they claim you can double up the leads to get the full 20A into one bank.  they don't recommend more than doubling, but i'm guessing you could get the 40A version and put all four leads to your one bank...

Seems like that would be robbing Peter to pay Paul.  That would still require power to operate the additional charger and w/o the generator I would not have that power.  It doesn't bother me to have the generator to come on every 2-3 days just to charge if I can do so w/o ruining the batteries

with the above two steps, you could probably go a week or more between genny starts. 

sounds like your batts are slowly coming back!  that's good!  4AWG isn't THAT bad...

With additional charging at closer intervals do you think they will steadily increase or will they just stabilize at the Specific gravity.  Before they were at 1.30 most of the time.  SG at 1.225 is not that great.

adam

[birdhouse]

i may not have explained the additional charger all that well., and maybe made some assumptions that aren't correct.    the inverter would be left off, yet the genny autostart would be left in place (assuming its not part of the inverter and doesn't need 120v to work). 

then plug the additional charger into the genny.  everytime the genny autostarts, the charger charges the bank.

i'm not the best battery resurection expert, but i think if it were me, i'd try to get some decently deep cycles.  IE:  drain them down to ~48v then fully charge them followed by equalize.  ive read of folks doing cycles like this MANY times before the batts fully recover.

maybe someone else will chime in here that has actual experience bringing batts back to life... 

i think in the end, you'll want at least some solar.  even 200w would be a decent "insurance policy".  not to mention it'll save those expensive dinosaur bones! 

BTW:  i looked at all the photos of you cabin build from the earlier link.  WELL DONE!  you are quite the craftsman! 

adam

[redoverfarm]

Adam the start feature of the Generator is part of the controls from the inverter. 

I will try to cycle through a few more times and equalize again and see what happens.

Thanks for the comments.

John