Author Topic: Are posts on commercial wind and solar acceptable?  (Read 5928 times)

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TomW

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Are posts on commercial wind and solar acceptable?
« on: July 24, 2008, 04:58:29 PM »
Well, we seem to be a repository of what "I" consider off topic posts about solar and wind power on a commercial scale as well as political commentary links on same.


If the poll had not already been set this month I would have requested this be it.


I find them to be distracting from the purpose of the forum. It is "preaching to the choir", too.


Actually, I find anything not DIY to be detracting from the focus of the forum.


So the question is, do you have an opinion and if so, what is it?


I figure it is a community and it is not up to me.


Ok, post away. I really want to know what the members think.


There is a poll over there on the right, or should be. So you can vote without a comment.


Tom

« Last Edit: July 24, 2008, 04:58:29 PM by (unknown) »

Bruce S

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Are posts on commercial wind and solar acceptable
« Reply #1 on: July 24, 2008, 11:41:06 AM »
TomW;

   I like the idea of being able to tell others about places that are coming on board with RE power. It helps to know that even towns and cities are actually listening. Could even turn out to be tourist stop :-)


I would however NOT want to see political comments, they're like opinons, everyone's got one :-()


Only other think would be to keep them strictly in the R/O area.


IMHO, YMMV


Cheers

Bruce S

« Last Edit: July 24, 2008, 11:41:06 AM by Bruce S »
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DanG

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commercial wind and solar..
« Reply #2 on: July 24, 2008, 11:49:12 AM »
Six months ago I posted about a news item about smallish turbines being roof-installed on Gov't buildings in Duluth, MN and wonder is it OK to post if the commercial turbine or project is man-sized and repeatable by DIY'rs, or has timely industrial design espionage elements to it? (just kidding on the espionage part).


Also, if the national current events' look-at-me Political types are discouraged then what about the family who successfully challenged their local ordinances to fly their five-meter turbine or got their city-hall or local shopping center to install PV panels and include photos to share the layouts and such?


I agree with TomW with just those two reservations.


-----------

I won't post the picture, but here is the Story link..

http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2008/2/15/172232/930

« Last Edit: July 24, 2008, 11:49:12 AM by DanG »

DamonHD

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Re: Are posts on commercial wind and solar accepta
« Reply #3 on: July 24, 2008, 01:12:22 PM »
Hi,


I guess it might be a matter how much 'Y' of the DIY has to be in the thread.


For example, a news report on a commercial wind farm probably doesn't fit here, but what about use of an off-the-shelf turbine (or PV panel) in a home-brew system?


Do we have to refine the silicon and copper ourselves for it to be really DIY?  Dunno.


At that level none of what I have done is DIY.


Rgds


Damon

« Last Edit: July 24, 2008, 01:12:22 PM by DamonHD »

valterra

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DIY Commercial
« Reply #4 on: July 24, 2008, 01:16:30 PM »
I have a new design that's never been tried, and I am going to patent it after you guys help me design it, and then sell it commercially.


I can't really give any details (because trying to patent it), but can you guys please give me the info I need right now anyway?


Is this kind of post okay?    


<wink>

« Last Edit: July 24, 2008, 01:16:30 PM by valterra »

DamonHD

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Re: DIY Commercial
« Reply #5 on: July 24, 2008, 01:17:48 PM »
Hi,


Yep, everything you need is at http://127.0.0.1/ou/


Rgds


Damon

« Last Edit: July 24, 2008, 01:17:48 PM by DamonHD »

SparWeb

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Re: posts on commercial wind and solar
« Reply #6 on: July 24, 2008, 01:46:18 PM »
I could mention that this site isn't the only forum where RE projects can be discussed.  I won't go into a pitch for some other forum (that would be in bad taste), but if you were to look around you'd find other fora that might suit your needs.  Maybe you wanted to make a sales pitch for your CNC blades, or installation services.  Well there's a place you can go for that; it's just not here.


Narrowing the focus on this forum wouldn't hurt, but a "DIY only" policy would have a few side-effects that must be considered:


a) Lower Google search ranking

     Reducing the number of posts with recognizable, commercial, "searchable" names means that Fieldlines falls behind other sites that collect more keywords.  Bow to the almighty "G".


b) Disgruntled members

       It's a shame every time a member (whether they're new or not) get their postings zapped.  Right or wrong, the person is discouraged.  If they go away, then the eyeball count goes down.  See part a).


c) Community

       The information is usually what attacts people to the site.  Whatever sense of community you get out of it is one of the things that helps them stay.  Well, I'm speaking for myself, there.  At some point you have to acknowledge that the variety of members' interests will include just about everything else under the sun (even politics, where the sun doesn't shine).


d) Cute dog pictures

       If it's 100% DIY, then the pictures of the family dogs have to go.  Plainly unacceptable!


Evolution of the site in the past couple of years has been very positive.  All the time it's been a democratic process, so by listening and considering the feedback you will see the answer.


(PS Congrats, Tom, is this your first >50 character title?)

« Last Edit: July 24, 2008, 01:46:18 PM by SparWeb »
No one believes the theory except the one who developed it.  Everyone believes the experiment except the one who ran it.

System spec: 135w BP multicrystalline panels, regulated by Xantrex C40, DIY 8ft diameter wind turbine, regulated by Tri-Star TS60, 800AH x 24V AGM Battery, Xantrex SW4024

Chuck

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Re: Are posts on commercial wind and solar accepta
« Reply #7 on: July 24, 2008, 04:27:28 PM »
There are some things that are DIY and some that aren't. However there is a huge gray area. Most of us are using commercial charge controllers and inverters. We ask each other about these things and those appear to be OK. I feel it's important to discuss these things because understanding how to use them contributes greatly to getting a system up and running, and keeping it running.


While there are folks assembling their own PV panels, I don't know of any who are growing their own silicon crystals. Nor do I know of many building batteries from scratch. But we talk about these things too.


While I agree that this is and should remain a DIY forum, falling into dogmatic positions is rarely a positive move. I like seeing mentions of folks who sell DIY parts, plans and such but I don't want to see overt commercial advertising on the forum. I don't think it's all that fine a line and has been handled well so far. The google ads are OK with me as long as they are on topic (DIY Energy stuff) and relegated to a small space, as they are now.


Chuck

« Last Edit: July 24, 2008, 04:27:28 PM by Chuck »

ghurd

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Re: posts on commercial wind and solar
« Reply #8 on: July 24, 2008, 07:18:36 PM »
Steven, et al,

I am considering the recent proposal to add a "commercial" tag line.

I get so many emails with "I tried 10 times. Is this the ghurd I am looking for?".

I am starting to think it would be a community service, for this community.

The majority of my kits go to non-posting people.  I consider them in this community even if they do not post.

Very Tough call for me.  I was 100% against that kind of thing.

Ghurd controller or Chi-Com blades...

"Look what I have!  It is the best!  You NEED One!  Buy One Today!"

Morally, I have a hard time with the entire concept of selling stuff on otherpower's site.


Disgruntled member's posts are not deleted, unless they got completely out of hand in that post.  At least I don't think they do.

I can find more than a few that should have been deleted. Then deleted 2 more times.


GOOD information will always attract people.


I don't understand the dog thing.  Who doesn't like dogs?

G-

« Last Edit: July 24, 2008, 07:18:36 PM by ghurd »
www.ghurd.info<<<-----Information on my Controller

CmeBREW

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Re: Are posts on commercial wind and solar
« Reply #9 on: July 24, 2008, 08:05:00 PM »
I agree with Chuck.  Big gray area there.

It seems to me that the RE-group governs Itself quite well. If someone sounds like they are too 'political' or are selling or 'promoting' something inappropriately, the members will 'detect it' and tell him so in different ways and opinions.  


Most of the time, EVERYTHING can't be DIY.

Many times it is good to hear many opinions on the pro's and con's and the limitations on many, many, "Commercial" RE-products. (Mills, batteries, controllers, panels, etc)


I think the discussion RE-group forum has went in the right direction and has improved and is VERY useful for all.


-Just my 'Hay penny'.  


   

« Last Edit: July 24, 2008, 08:05:00 PM by CmeBREW »

Speo

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Re: DIY Commercial
« Reply #10 on: July 24, 2008, 09:01:07 PM »
Cool, it sais


welcome (in a dozen languages)

IIS7

internet information services


Speo

« Last Edit: July 24, 2008, 09:01:07 PM by Speo »

valterra

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Re: posts on commercial wind and solar
« Reply #11 on: July 24, 2008, 09:05:03 PM »
In a society so inundated with commercials, AND an application that is SO rife with BS claims, I don't think your ads would be inappropriate.


People who think you're  full of it will ignore them, whilst others who are actually wondering if you are "the ghurd" they're  looking for won't have to ask!


But some discretion (or healthy internal policing (e.g."peer review")) of people who put ads in their taglines would be appropriate.


Ghurd has a readily-accepted legitimate product.  Joe Blowe's Perpetual Motion Tesla Hydrogen machine doesn't...  so Joe might be asked to remove his ad.  Joe will complain.  TomW or Kurt will remind him that he doesn't have the "right" to advertise.


I like this board because of its "hey! that's a great idea!" replies as well as its many "you're full of crap and here's a link to your 25 posts that prove it" responses.  That's what I meant by "peer reviewed."  It's great.

« Last Edit: July 24, 2008, 09:05:03 PM by valterra »

Colaman

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Re: Are posts on commercial wind and solar accepta
« Reply #12 on: July 24, 2008, 09:36:35 PM »
I don't post often, but I lurk a lot. I will post now, just to be a voice from the silent masses.


Regarding commercial stuff - if it's available to the Average Man, then by all means let us know. Always good to see what's about. A lot of good designs can be copied at home......


Politics? Keep politics out of it. A lot of boards I visit have been ruined due to posts about why some political party is doing something that the poster agrees/disagrees about, and a lot of heated useless debate usually ensues. Add to the fact that not being American, I don't give a damn about politics there, even if you do. Please remember it's the World Wide Web - god knows I've had enough media coverage of the US election circus to last me several lifetimes. General catch-all "Politicians are bastards!" statements are fine I guess.


Back to lurking :-P

« Last Edit: July 24, 2008, 09:36:35 PM by Colaman »

thefinis

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Re: Are posts on commercial wind and solar accepta
« Reply #13 on: July 24, 2008, 10:21:02 PM »
Got to agree with the gray area as so much falls into it. Is it okay to ask about which commercial blades to buy rather than carve them yourself. Is it DIY if you have a commercial turbine and a home made tower? Posts about wind farms may seem not to apply to DIY but it does show where in the country the big boys have found the wind blows enough to make wind power economically feasible.


Not fond of the political stuff as it is a tar pit that the more you struggle with it the more mired down you become. Dealing with zoning laws etc is something DIY has to deal with and it is more red tape than political.


Do it yourself is a blend of homemade and commercial parts. If someone has a system they bought and had installed would not the output and problems encountered be of interest to someone trying to build and put up one on their own?


One of the big problems here and on other forums I have visited is that all too often the seniors forget that they were freshmen once (if we dig up our beginning posts you will see what I mean) and that a new group of freshmen starts every year. It is not a book we are writing but a class we are teaching. That class will always have more freshmen than seniors so it will always have the OT questions and posts about things already explored in depth. I had thought that was part of why there was a newbie area made for the questions that have been asked and answered over and over. Get them hooked, let them grow and then we squash them with the news that homemade energy is not free and almost always more expensive than grid.


We need folks like TowW to help keep us on track and newbies that bring open minds. It is a balancing act at best.


Short answer to original question "Sometimes".


Finis

« Last Edit: July 24, 2008, 10:21:02 PM by thefinis »

wooferhound

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commercial wind and solar acceptable?
« Reply #14 on: July 24, 2008, 10:37:25 PM »
to me

if I buy a commercial wind genny and install it myself with store bought inverters and Charge controllers, That is DIY. If I did the same thing but had a contractor install it then it's Not DIY.


If a company actually builds an efficient genny that works good in lower winds and is not expensive like we are all trying to make, don't you think that we would suddenly see how silly it would be to build something that copies the performance of the commercial genny but costs more.


What about an Ametek motor genny, is that DIY, just slapping a prop and tail on there and putting it up on a long stick.


We need to talk about commercial gennies because we are already using them. Aren't the OtherPower guys making commercial gennys ?

« Last Edit: July 24, 2008, 10:37:25 PM by wooferhound »

David HK

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Re: Are posts on commercial wind and solar
« Reply #15 on: July 25, 2008, 05:23:58 AM »
This web site seems to be out of central control and appears to be run on a whim whereby rules can change daily.


A few weeks ago I posted a web site address concerning a Chinese company that is in the RE business. In fact I posted twice because the first disappeared so quickly that I thought I had made an error in posting. The second disappeared equally quickly and then I realized that someone who edits or controls this site was peremptorily deleting the posts. In my introduction text I made it as clear as daylight that I was encouraging visitors and users of this site to look at a rather interesting tower/mast design that incorporated photo voltaic panels and a wind turbine, the commercial aspect of that website was on no interest to me.


Later we saw on this site a beer company advertisement containing someone's wind turbine picture and that was allowed to remain on the site and attracted quite a few comments. The article had nothing to do with DIY renewable energy and was designed to sell beer which is good.


Now we have gotwind2 doing a similar thing to myself and so far he has got away with it - Bergey 1Kw versus Chinese variants?? and he quite rightly advises that interested readers will have to navigate to the site in question. Gotwind2 is just trying to be helpful, as I was.


Lower down we have a submission  entitled What happened to the magnets which is answered by DanB who replies:- We ran out!  We should have more in a couple days with a bit of luck... This is commercial.


Is a post by Hugh Piggot commercial?


There is a great deal of goodwill on this excellent site and times are changing fast in terms of what manufacturers are beginning to make available to the RE market. How can we know what new developments are taking place if reference to them is suppressed?


What seems to be happening now is that there are various arbiters controlling posts on this web site and none of us punters know what the rules are.


Who is Kurt and who is TomW? I don't know! I don't even know which country they are in but it's either Canada or the USA.


Can we have more comments please.


David HK

« Last Edit: July 25, 2008, 05:23:58 AM by David HK »

FishbonzWV

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Re: A
« Reply #16 on: July 25, 2008, 06:37:39 AM »
I think the commercial posts are acceptable.

It's staying abreast of the world news on RE.

Just because most here build their own, is no reason not to be informed on what the industry is working on.

Another reason is people can use those links to educate themselves.

They read something on another site, it raises a question, they take a link to another site, read info that increases their knowledge, thus they don't have to post a basic question to be answered on this site.  :-)


Fishbonz

« Last Edit: July 25, 2008, 06:37:39 AM by FishbonzWV »
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TomW

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Re: Are posts on ...
« Reply #17 on: July 25, 2008, 09:05:43 AM »
Folks;


All interesting stuff. Mostly what I was hoping to hear, wide range of opinions. I also knew their would be some saber rattling and complaints on "what happened to my post".


As of right now the poll [extremely unscientific tho it may be] shows over 76% either voted "YES" or "Sometimes".


In my youth, I was a pretty fair debater. I can generally think up supporting arguments for any side of most any subject. Today I simply want to address the question posed.


This isn't about me Or Kurt. Kurt is the evil one you know. ;=]


The whole point was to see how folks felt on the subject. Now I will have to digest whats been said and integrate it into our evil plan.


I may counter point some of the points made after a few days but it sure seems to me that the average user does not mind such postings.


Thanks for the responses, folks. It helps us decide how to proceed. The board is an ever changing and growing entity.


I just would hate to see Fieldlines become the SlashDot of RE interests where the common guy and his efforts get swallowed whole by a mass of diatribe and links to what ends up being a steaming pile of high tech manure.


It just seems much more germane to the purpose of the board to have posts about someone in a hardscrabble situation lighting a few LEDs for reading at night with a TDM turbine and a car battery than a 25 terawatt wind farm in Bigmoney, Virginia thats "planned" for 2050 etc. I could go on but I am not here to convince others of anything.


Bottom line is a big thanks to all who commented and voted. Will of the people and all that.


Tom

« Last Edit: July 25, 2008, 09:05:43 AM by TomW »

Bruce S

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Re: Are posts on ...
« Reply #18 on: July 25, 2008, 11:21:42 AM »
TomW;

 As other have said, thanks for taking the time to issue this request.

One other item , that might be looked at and was already mentioned in a post or two is the tagline area.

I would not be so open to a tagline that heads off to another site.


Cheers

Bruce S

« Last Edit: July 25, 2008, 11:21:42 AM by Bruce S »
A kind word often goes unsaid BUT never goes unheard

mukesh13

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Re: Are posts on commercial wind and solar accepta
« Reply #19 on: July 25, 2008, 01:02:16 PM »
Here are my 2 cents :

A blanket ban on any post that may involve money, and hence a commercial as per some, will be counter-productive.

As a simple rule of thumb, if someone comes to the board, and offers products/services without a positive contribution to the community otherwise is a commercial. But when a 'ghurd' responds to someone looking for a modification to something posted here or a new thing altogether, or even 'the ghurd' puts up an announcement about something he has been working on and is not ready, that is not commercial.

We must understand, this is a community. I grow some good papaya on my farm and tell others in my community, some come to taste for free and a few offer to pay, a still fewer pay. That doesn't make my announcement commercial. If my local government cracks down on me for carrying out commercial activity on non-commercial property, well, I will be bitter.

As TomW said, when debating, we all can have points in favor or against, but do they really answer the point being discussed? AS kids, we can indulge in such debates, as adults, we should look for solutions, even if they sound less convincing.


Thanks.

« Last Edit: July 25, 2008, 01:02:16 PM by mukesh13 »

SparWeb

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Re: posts on commercial wind and solar
« Reply #20 on: July 25, 2008, 01:04:32 PM »
Was that a rhetorical question about the dogs, Ghurd?  Or was I not clear that a policy of 100% DIY means no dog pictures, because not many of us can claim to have made a dog ourselves.  Except if you're a biochemist.  I was kidding.  I still am.

Sometimes I forget to punctuate with this guy :^)
« Last Edit: July 25, 2008, 01:04:32 PM by SparWeb »
No one believes the theory except the one who developed it.  Everyone believes the experiment except the one who ran it.

System spec: 135w BP multicrystalline panels, regulated by Xantrex C40, DIY 8ft diameter wind turbine, regulated by Tri-Star TS60, 800AH x 24V AGM Battery, Xantrex SW4024

blueyonder

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Re: Are posts on commercial wind and solar accepta
« Reply #21 on: July 25, 2008, 05:46:00 PM »
 

  i am a small boat angler.  i bye a magazine each month.

  lots of folk like to build there own boats or restore a older boat.

   sum bye new boats . made by a company that builds boats.

   sumtimes the magazine will compare new boats on the market.


   i read and enjoy. its my interest.

   but if the magazine started  doing a story on ships oil tankers or fishing

    trawlers and  the like.


   well i would no longer bye the magizine  

   most of this re on this site is hobby based.


 its good the dans and hugh piggot  do things to help us make a better

  wind gen.

   if it wasent for them i would still be wondering how to make a wind gen.


 were all different. sum of us can make blades.

  sum can make stators .  machine steel rotors.

   but at the end of the day were all trying to make electric power.


 its diy power.  or you could say the otherpower.


   so the big guys who make big wind gens and wind farms.

    well there only part of the grid.  thay charge the same for power made by wind as thay do for a oil fired power station.


   its just just sumthing to make profit. in other words it commercial.


 if you live of grid and make your own electric from a bergey . good luck to you.

  you might not have the time or skills to make a diy turbine.

   i read a link put on here by wiredwrong . it was about bergey.

   i enjoyed it so much. thanks for the link wiredwrong.


   sorry i went off topic a bit talking about boats.

   but who wants to look at power stations making profit from the wind .

   sure all the dollars thay get are green . but that is as green as thay go.

  i voted NO

« Last Edit: July 25, 2008, 05:46:00 PM by blueyonder »

Buzz Hacksaw

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Are posts on commercial wind and solar acceptable?
« Reply #22 on: July 25, 2008, 07:52:18 PM »
Commercial projects of any kind are fine. They are part of the positive subculture we are building. One does not have to look. Advertising of any kind "NO". I have advertising of any kind. They're usually overstated.

Cheers

Buzz
« Last Edit: July 25, 2008, 07:52:18 PM by Buzz Hacksaw »

commanda

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Re: Are posts on commercial wind and solar accepta
« Reply #23 on: July 27, 2008, 01:29:50 AM »
As I see it, any posts about commercial (turbines, wind farms, etc) should fall into one of two categories.


A great design idea we may copy,


OR


advocacy (maybe this should be a section, if anyone can nail down a satisfactory definition).


An interesting phenomenon of the internet of late, is open source hardware. One person, or a group of people, design and prototype something. They freely publish the design for others to copy. Often they will make available either bare pcb's, complete kit of parts, or built up units for those soldering-iron challenged. Ghurds controller falls into this last category. In no way should people like Ghurd be tarred with the "Commercial" brush; or in any way discouraged.


Amanda

« Last Edit: July 27, 2008, 01:29:50 AM by commanda »

DamonHD

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Re: Are posts on commercial wind and solar accepta
« Reply #24 on: July 27, 2008, 11:53:28 AM »
"Hear hear!" to your last point in particular.


Rgds


Damon

« Last Edit: July 27, 2008, 11:53:28 AM by DamonHD »

jonas302

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Re: posts on commercial wind and solar
« Reply #25 on: July 27, 2008, 04:57:15 PM »
A $12 controller that comes with $100 free support isn't exactly commercial (:


Posts on million dollar wind farms or solar installs can be a good read it is nice to hear about them as ofcourse everybody wishes they could have one. But I would't come to the site if it wasn't for all the homemade stuff even if the post is about a airx or somthing it still is all doable without a million dollars


I think Tom is doing a good job there is never anything on here for long that seems like a waste of space I understand he gets fustrated reading every post keeping out spammers and scam artist advertisers keep up the good work

« Last Edit: July 27, 2008, 04:57:15 PM by jonas302 »

howlet

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To DIY or not?
« Reply #26 on: August 21, 2008, 10:31:02 PM »
The recent trend of fieldlines DIY RE projects seems to have taken on a very narrow focus on what is achieveable for the DIY enthusiest. If the project isnt a wind or sometimes water powered turbine,(not counting electronic controls), people are likely told to steer clear of that project.


I cant count the number of times that a new comer has posted an interest in fabricating thier own solar modules only to be told that they are wasting thier time and that they would be much better off buying COMMERCIAL solar panels.


Ive also read some very questionable statistics posted about the efficiency of module components that are readily available to the general public. What gets me is this information is perpetuated by individuals who have either never attempted to fabricate a solar panel or if they have, the method of fabrication is gauranteed to produce a module that will almost certainly expose the solar cells and wiring to elements that WILL cause the module to fail.


I have curtailed my postings about the modules that I fabricate, (according to industry standards), because of the negative feedback that is almost certain to show up from respected members of this forum.


The cost of machinery and equipment necessary to fabricate a DIY Wind Turbine from scratch is probably more than the cost of the equipment needed to fabricate a laminated solar panel. I purchased my laminator from an auction for $199.00 because nobody else bid on it. Of course there are other expenses but the same goes for Turbine or Alternator fabrication.


Once a shop and equipment has been procured, the cost of the module drops substantially. Your first panels arent going to be perfect, but they will generate the 18+ volts needed to charge a 12 volt battery. If you persue your goal, you will become a seasoned solar panel fabricator and if you so desire, you can submit your panels to UL for testing which can lead to marketing your product.JB

« Last Edit: August 21, 2008, 10:31:02 PM by howlet »

blueyonder

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Re: To DIY or not?
« Reply #27 on: August 22, 2008, 03:45:33 PM »
 hi howlet.

   looking at your photo files i see your doing sum nice panals.

  you look like your well set up and got the room to do it.


   if it wasent for the laminating  part i would have a go at making sum.

   with a wind gen if it gos wrong you can make new bits.

   things like a prop a stator  or a new tail thats gone wrong with the

   weather.

   its a thing you can repair and rebuild time after time.

   but if you make your own panels and thay go wrong  .


   how would i be able to fix it.

   with the price good panels are selling at .i would love to make my own.

    thay are a good way to get power. i already have over a 100 watts up and running.


    i try to save money where i can.  now if i could only make magnets like n42 grade.

    i am busy with building a wind gen.


     but will give more thought to how i could make a solar penal thats reliable.

    no i dont think your commercial .

     just a guy who loves what he can do and make a few bucks at the same time.

     shipping panels to the uk would cost more than the panels.

    what a shame as i would like more.

« Last Edit: August 22, 2008, 03:45:33 PM by blueyonder »

tmcmurran

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Re: Are posts on commercial wind and solar
« Reply #28 on: November 15, 2008, 04:49:01 AM »
Not that it is a good or bad thing, but some take the commercial route first only to gain an understanding of the concept prior to attempting the DIY method.  Without hearing of a commercial version I know many would not have considered RE.  Once they gain a grasp of the process then most will dabble in things in greater depth.  Like most things they all start and end with the DIY'ers.


I think they can complement eachother in some aspects.


Just my 2 cents.

« Last Edit: November 15, 2008, 04:49:01 AM by tmcmurran »