perpetual motion and all that

[bob g]

plausible excuse for working on a perpetual motion machince, and that is to make a copy of some strange unit that has long since been laid to rest, to display as a conversation piece..... period!

folks spend countless hours trying to get to the "holy grail" of energy production, when their efforts would be far better spent on proven designs and variations of the same.

consider the following..

1. gasoline engines are only about 27% efficient, diesel a bit better.. never going to get to unity on one of these things.
   
2. electric motors are only about 93% efficient on certain applications, transformers, generators and all the rest are right in there somewhere.
   
   

so that leaves you with the need to overcome the last 7% in losses, to reach unity, let alone getting to anything that can actually run on its own and produce even a watt of power.

until one gets to zero resistance wire, zero eddy currents, zero friction brgs, and Zero windage within the machine, you will never even come close to unity.

so my question to those that insist on this endevour..... Why??

do you just feel like you are smarter, or luckier than all those that came before you? (in which case maybe you should have your head examined)

or do you just like building unusual machines?  (which i don't have a problem with at all, there is at least some sort of creative release at least some sort of art to it all i guess)

bottom line to me at least is that i really like seeing those new folks come on board and start in with proven designs, and some of which they modify to fit their requirements. i also enjoy seeing all the work those that have been at this for a while, and have contributed to this board and the collective knowlege of the group. This i feel is a good thing.

but when it comes to the fringe stuff, such as perpetual motion schemes and those that make more power than they consume, i for one would like to see that sort of thing somewhere else,

i stay away from reading tabloid rags, because i am afraid of something that is reported there getting stuck in the recess of my mind , only to come up as a reference of fact somewhere, sometime,,,, with me not remembering where it came from.

i feel that all this crud reguarding "free power machines" "perpetual motion" etc. etc. fits right in their with all that stuff in the tabloids, and really has no place around folks that are serious about renewable energy production.

bob g

[RobD]

So Bob... I gather from this that you're not building the Bedini?

[windstuffnow]

  Well that was a good rant !!! I have to agree with you Bob.   In the back of my mind I really wish it were possible.  I'll have to admit I've spent many hours pondering over some ideas I've had and wasted my time building them.  Although, quite fun to build and I usually learned something from them.

All in good fun...

Windstuff Ed

[John II]

Lighten up Bob G.....  The Weird Science Forum is an excellent place to share new "far out" ideas... who's to say that something good can't occasionally come from it that might even improve your ole windgenny ; )

Plus there's a lot of really nice people out there trying new things. Sometimes it pays not to listen to the top physicists and just roll up your sleeves and try something out that's never been talked about before. Heck... most of our inventions that we now have usually started out with the same premise that "it couldn't be done", with good intentioned folks.

Please don't worry about strange ideas being placed in the recesses of your mind, Rest assured that your windgenny won't collect more Orgone energy then the black energy can absorb at anyone time... so there's really not much to worry about  ; )

John II

[monte350c]

Hi Bob,

Guess I'm one of those nuts who actually built the Bedini motor - oh well!!

On the plus side it didn't take that long, figure I've got about 8 to 10 hours in it altogether.

I did have a motive for building it, I wanted to learn about the pulse charging deal and using the old 555 timer now at least I know how that part of it works.

Is it going to power my home? Not likely!

But I figure I can use the almost exact circuit on my wnd turbine to collect up the below 12 volt power that is generated when the wind isn't so good, save it in the capacitors until it's over battery voltage, and pulse it in.

So I'll definitely agree with your take on the over unity thing, there's a lot of guys a lot smarter than me who have spent a lot of time on it...

But now I think I have a way to make my turbine cough up some charge when the wind is low so if nothing else it was a good learning experience for that 555 timer capacitor discharge circuit. And of course lots of fun,

Ted.

[TomW]

Folks;

I must admit that personally I agree with bob. Having said that please allow me to ask some questions that arise in my mind.

Please do not be offended any of you its just recent examples and an exercise in understanding how to keep the board viable.

As the Devil's advocate I submit:

1. One guy is messing with pure EMF power transfer. This borders on the fringe of free energy of sorts. Perhaps it belongs on a free energy board.
   
2. One guy shares his damaged pistons and connecting rods.  This may belong on a motorhead board.
   
3. Almost every week some newbie asks a question that has been addressed from every conceivable angle many times. This seems like a troll or attention seeking lazy person to me. Do they deserver space on the board?
   
4. A user will be asking basic mill and electrical questions a week ago. This week they are answering complex questions on both subjects. I won't even say what I think of these types but i don't like them on the board disseminating bad information, nor do I have the energy to argue with them.
   
5. We get posts about pool heating. Perhaps it belongs on a board about pools and spas.
   
6. Posts about all manner of devices that may or may not use less energy than you put in to spin. Perhaps they belong on an overunity board?
   
   

Most of thee above mentioned examples actually fall under our rather large umbrella for acceptable use of the board. Many of us may not feel they belong and many may well feel they absolutely do belong here.

Please do not take any of this personally I was just trying to show how diverse a group we have and how opinions may vary wildly.

End of Devils advocate section.

Ok, heres my take on this board:

The board is here to provide support for wondermagnet's online business and they sell magnets, books, magnet wire and other parts that can be used in generator building, bedini devices selfpowering magnet wheels and most overunity stuff we have seen. With that in mind there is absolutely no reason we cannot discuss even the most wild ideas in these areas.

All of the stories now get posted to the front page by default and therein lies the main problem as I see it.

We are nearing 2,000 users and seem to turn up in google searches for anything related to energy, magnets and even electronics. This tends to make us a relatively popular site for information in those fields.

I propose that we either have an option to customize what sections we want in your personal "My otherpower" page and maybe a voting que for stories to get to the front page based on registered user approval. This would not affect what goes to section pages just what gets shown on the generic "front page".

Just some thoughts on how we might keep the site fun, useful and a source of solid and accurate information.

Cheers.

TomW

[John II]

I agree with alot of what you have to say TomW. However everyone has asked a conceivable "newbie" question one time or another. I think alot of tollorance is in order. If you don't want another "newbie" trying to help a "newbie" out.... then some of the pros should take time out of sharing their advanced engineering ideas to help newcomers.

I'm new to this board so perhaps I have a fresh approach to it, But I like the front page scrolling with every conceivable content. It's a good place to just jump off on to learn more about different projects no matter what they might be.

If there were improvments to be made, I think there should be perhaps more subject headings. For example... wind generators could be scrolling with nothing but that subject. If Bob doesn't want to scroll through all the other stuff, then jumping to that heading would cover the latest in only that subject alone.

It would be great to have other subjects headings... There's been quite abit of talk about high voltage AE systems ie/ 120vdc That would be nice to be under a heading and so forth. This way people working on conventional lower voltage systems wouldn't have to keep reading about stuff they will never use. Even the OverUnity energy pursuits need extra headings. Maybe one heading could be on just building inverters etc.

Soooo if you had more headings, you could jump right to your favorite interest and catch up on the lastest querries, ideas and submissions on that subject. However... if you are on the prowel for new ideas, you cound monitor the front page, and when something different or interesting catches your eye, you could spot it, rather than having to check out every subject heading.

I think it's great just the way it is... but more subject headings might be a good thing.

Bottom line... Wondermagnet is running a really nice forum that's helping alot of people, and it's very helpful to all... and there's room for all. I really appreciate what they are doing.

John II

[lecoursc]

This site is from France, also check the illustration in the menu

http://www.bixis.com/mouvementperpetuel/perpetual_motion.html

[JW]

To tell ya the truth Ive searched near and far for a decent "motor head" board. But there really isnt that much out there. This board is run quite well, and has some enguaging material. This includes your support as a board admin Tom W... My motivation for posting what I did, is because I was inspired by windstuff's post on thermodynamics. I think its remarkable when you can harness enough energy to break an engine. I believe He broke an engine as well. I actually regret posting what I did now. But perhaps you are right, its not worth the energy.  

-JW

[veewee77]

I think the main list should be left just as it is.  I, for one, have found a lot of useful information by scanning those posts and reading.  Many times I have read them and found new information (which I wasn't specifically looking for but was relevant to one of my other projects) in the main section.

I am still a relative newbie on much of what comes throught there, but because it has been so diverse, I have gleaned a lot of knowledge about a lot of things by accident, and some were questions I was just to dubm to even think about asking.

My vote is "Leave it as it is!"

Doug

[TomW]

JW;

I never meant to make it seem like there was anything wrong with that story. Quite the contrary I was trying to show the wide diversity of things that actually do make up the board.

My mechanical ability is in the negative numbers region so engines hold little interest to me personally. That does not mean its not of great interest to others and several people use internal combustion engines to supplement their RE power in remote situations.

Sorry, I had no intent to single anyone out and actually included myself in the recent posts list.  Thats why i said i was being devils advocate and intended no offense.

I do think a customizable personal otherpower page on a per user basis would cure most of the issues i hear about. If you wanna see it all you select "all" otherwise you could select as many or as few sections as you like. For all I know the option exists now but I am not up to speed on how scoop works.

Cheers.

TomW

[JW]

No sweat Tom,

 I respect you as a user and a admin...

Fieldlines.com is a great board I think your a part of that, much more than I. The diversity here is truly a quality that makes this Board great. Even though I specialize in steam, I am truly inspired by this site and am a big advocate of "the dual rotor machines"... As a student of the second law of thermodynamics I am facinated by perpetual motion machines, I want to be cationary and say that most if not all wont work until someone introduces some new technique and makes one work. Then by the time it (if ever) happens, someone pipes up from the back "thats not really such and such, because of such". Id "like" to think if we could somehow figure out how to extract energy from magnets, somehow,,, without torque... it would be the dawn of a new type of thinking. since the fuel infrostructure would colapse, "if" somehow in time, we did infact become that smart. Look at history, a great many things were once deemed not doable, that are now possible. In 1930 it was not possible to make CPU's. But today it is. In both cases we had the same materials avalable. but until technique was introduced it was not possible to make a CPU.

 I think just the sheer effort of actually building something like a perp-motor, will inherently teach you construction methods, how to drill holes, weld etc. That in itself can be applyied to future project that will work later. In the case of bendini motors it could turn out to be a lesson on how the generate waveforms, or learn switching techniques, or even ohms law(god forbid).

-JW

[iFred]

I have been on this board since it's conception. I have been helped and do help others on this board. I believe that the sharing of information on this message board is what makes it the best board around. The people on it generally do not jump upon you for a crazy idea and in general tend to keep an open mind and give helpful suggestions. This makes it also very popular as does the sorting of information by topic and search capabilities. The owners of this web board have done a fantastic job in putting it together and making it as user friendly as possible as well as being good and kind hosts.

As far as the free energy concept is concerned. I have personally spent 10+ years in it, with little success, if you want to know what drives it; it comes down to some simple basics

1. break with conventional thought. think outside the box, you would be amazed at some of the wild ideas that do pop up.
   
2. do something that no one has ever done before, in a different way
   
3. Doing the impossible is the greatest challenge
   
4. the universe is weirder then weird. Anything is possible within context
   
5. Physical rules, laws and logic are made to be bent, broken and tortured to no end
   
6. if you know 1000 ways it will not work, your way ahead in why it might!
   
7. It's *&(#$&# FUN FUN FUN!! to build, experiment and try different things, rotating disks, blinky lights etc... are just plain fun to watch.
   
8. sharing your knowledge with others that have the same thought patterns can lead to other interesting thoughts. More minds are better then one.
   
   

How many science fiction books and movies have indeed broken the conventional thought and someone actually built the device because of some far out idea like the laser and so many others?

I wish you all the best of luck!

Fred.

[wildbill hickup]

I enjoy this board just the way it is for many reasons. Most of these have been mentioned in all the responces. One that has not however is just the amusement of reading all the comments when there is an obvious scam. Case in point 'Free energy' posted not to long ago. It makes me grin to read some of the comebacks and also brings up entirely new concepts and ideas, isn't that what this is all about. Sometimes the responce is sarcastic sometimes not, but all seemed to be treated with respect for the person who asked. Even the real newby is directed to pages that address basic electricity, not just told 'that was a stupid question you don't belong here'.

I won't go into all the other reasons that have been mentioned, but I know that I have learned much from reading the posts on the main page and many of those things learned were from questions I never even concidered.

I origionally found this post looking for information on simple homemade DC wind gennies, since then I have become interested in voltage multipliers, pulse generators, AC gennies, low voltage lighting, biodiesl,EMF power transfer, and much more. Scanning though the new postings is almost a daily ritual with morning coffee, skipping uninteresting subjects is as easy as not clicking on them.

Well, off the soap box, you guys at otherpower do a great job.

Wildbill    

[charged]

Invoking ohm's law should only be done as a LAST RESORT to get your project up and running. Exhaust all other methods first since this invocation is the most powerful of all the electrical spells and can take a lot out of you.

[stop4stuff]

Hi All...

this board has inspired me in more ways than you could imagine...

for that, I thank everyone who has conrtibuted to the information here.

I too have asked 'newbie' questions... i am a newbie... i'm still learning, and enjoying every minute of it, the stuff i learn, my children get to see aswell...

my idea for a perpetual motion device...

a ring of coils orbiting the earth, using the earth's magnetic field to generate electricity... the power is simply beamed to earth as microwave energy, anyone in the way either collects it or gets nuked

daft, expensive, or would the world stop spinning???

i also got to grips with kwh's and figured out my family and (moslty) I used 800w per hour average for the last 3 months... fieldlines has also helped me figure out that to provide our electricty needs we a very big wind genny and a big battery bank, as well as seriously reduce our usage!

If there were no mathematicians and no dreamers, who'd be able to figure out what'd work and what wouldn't?

For everyone who helps us newbies...

THANK YOU !!!

paul

p.s. more seriously... thanks to fieldlines and other sources, i am currently working on a new section to my website (www.stop4stuff.com) that hopefully will point ppl in the right direction to be able to learn how to become energy self sufficient (my dream

the learning goes on!

[finnsawyer]

Bob, do you know that current theory of fluid flow around a sphere of radius A predicts that if you calculate the ratio halfway around the sphere (at 90 degrees) of power available with the sphere divided by power available with no sphere as a function of radius it starts at 0  at A, increase to 1.22 at 2A and then slowly decreases to 1?  Check it out.  I'm writing this to show that there are still things to be learned in this "Best of All Universes".

[JW]

true... Cute Charged,

 Uknow Ohm's only works three ways.

 I will see your last resort,, and raise you one Kegerator running on excess power and pelter junctions, and a co2 bottle [so you dont have to drink it all at once].

"Your imagination is your only limitation"

-JW

[KHB1]

Bob

  My first time visiting this board was about a month ago, since that time I have visited at least once a day.  I am glad to see from the replies to your post that you are the only one that feels the way you posted, if you realy feel that way and are not just leting off steam for something else.

  When i was a kid a comic book Dick Tracey had a wrist radio that was unbelievable.

  Radios were battery powered, kerosene lamps were used for lighting and who would ever dream that man might ever walk on the moon that too would be rediculous.

   Big cities had electric power and i rode a horse for transportation and got blisters on my behind because thats what we had.

   Most of what we have today is a result of peoples wild dreams of impossible things.

  This is a wounderful web site the way it is. I believe in the saying you're eather part of the problem or part of the solution, and your solution might be to use todays technology and start a web site the way you want it and we will still use this one the way it is, we like it this way.

KHB1

[Gary D]

People really landed on the moon? Wasn't that a scam to keep the Russians pumping money away from their economy? ;-) Having fun here all. Good rants Gary D.

[gps]

Seems the practicality to kookery ratio is degrading recently.

Must be a disturbance in the ether.

[drdongle]

While I am no "nubie" to working with electronics and technology I am/was to working ( as opposed to reading about)R.E..I love this site so much I made it my home page, something I have never done in all the years I have been on the net.

I suggest that Dan might want to consider a new home page with two links one to the

current discussion board and the other for the newbies with a selection of FAQ's that are an archive of actual posts ( or links to same) that are requests for input and help on various subjects. This way perhaps some of the repeat questions that keep cropping up on the board can be available "instantly" to those who need them and not keep cluttering up the regular discussion board.

Dr.D