We are loosing the battle

[iFred]

Three years ago...Hey Fred, have you checked out this neat web site regarding building of windmills and otherpower, and checked out Hugh's web site? I said no, why what's it about? So he pulls up the internet and shows me the web site.... sure enough I got immediately addicted to the chat board and to Hugh's web page.

For about 10 years or more prior I have been looking into creating alternative power systems, I had extensive knowledge as it was, but wasn't sure how everything was put together. The more I studied the otherpower web site the more I found out it could be done and that others like myself had already done it and where way ahead of the game. I thought it was soooo cool and still do.

The point is that when I first visited the otherpower web site and Hughs web site, I knew it was just a couple people that got together and put some things together to see what worked, it didn't matter what they where producing, I knew that it was the spirit of good will and sharing of information. I knew that they didn't totally get the principles of electromagnetism totally or that they didn't know how to calculate power or build extensive circuits for control systems. No this was to do with the "spirit" of a couple of individuals with open minds, hearts of gold and the ability to tinker with things that had not been tried before, or perhaps in a certain way. They had to gradually learn what worked. Built it with what they had at hand, tried new and interesting ways to create things that they had in their minds and hearts and tinker with these ideas until a workable concept and prototype was achieved.

 They had some working prototypes and had some measures of success and decided to share with all of us, what they had learned. I thought it was the greatest thing when they aspired to go forward and create a message board so that we could now all share information and in doing so create better and learn more. Bless the person that came up with the idea of the chat board for this purpose. Whatever the intent, the idea was to open the door to new idea's.

Now after three years, I still see the greatness of what they have produced. The spirit that originally created the first prototypes and the tinkers in their garages is still alive. Who would have thought that it would have come this far. I too could not have imagined what I have built within two years with the help of these individuals and the spirit of good will and friendships and sharing of idea's that it has produced. I now have three wind turbines producing power for free, have cut my electricity costs by 2/8 and continue to build better.

My point is this. It was the spirit and good will of these good people in backwoods country that began this revolution of thought.  To show their idea's, to be open to new idea's to build with their hearts and minds, to express their thoughts, to help others in their quest for energy independence from the tinkerers in the backwoods and in garages to the so called experts in the field. Anyone and everyone can do it.

The same drive and determination and spirit from the early days is still here. Embedded for all time to see.

The message board however as of lately is seeing a dark time, a time of inters-quabbling and  arguments over the silliest of things, of no appreciation, of close-mindedness. It does not embody the spirit of that which created it. There are to many minds with too many opinions that can no longer support the common good. Everything has to be over debated and argued till the idea is dead. The spirit has been gradually sucked dry as a result of mis-understanding, misinterpretation and downright arrogances and ego just to name a few. Opinions are the plenty but understanding and compassion is rare. Attacks many.

We are loosing the battle folks, and it's our fault. We can however begin to heal and correct the problem, but it will take some time, energy and thought.

I ask you to consider what this message board is, what it was, what it embodied, what the spirit of it created. Think! Don't argue just think, what is it that we are now attempting to accomplish?

When I came to this message board three years ago, this is what I have seen.

Sharing of idea's and knowledge. Asking questions. Keeping an open mind. Showing what we have build with our own two hands, minds and hearts, sharing of photos of projects, contributing to the greater good, making something out of what is available, inventiveness, creativeness, acceptance These are just some of the greatness's that we should embody, cherish and be employed in this message board.

I know that it will not be easy, it never is, but let us not loose what the spirit has created.

[DanOpto]

Look for the gems in the rubble!

I have learned much from the experiences on the board.

I have saved time because I do not have to re-invent the work that has gone before me.

Nothing forces us to participate in non-productive threads.

Don't answer troublemakers.

Don't read offensive threads.

We become what our associates are.

Choose positive subjects.

Contribute helpful comments.

This board is very helpful, informative and enjoyable.

[Norm]

  Naw ifred...I've seen this happen time and again...for me it's the same as it was 3 yrs ago just more people you can always find what you're looking for everyone has a closed mind to some extent no matter how hard they try and deny it...of course this is just my opinion.

              Regards

                 Norm.

[tecker]

 Bottom line is I don't think rats know they rats .more than likely they went for the cheese and got their nose slammed or hit in between the eyes.Every one gets taken in by a good con some time in their lives but some can't admit it to them selves and move on.

Big hole in the old ego .I think we could  stand to take a lesson from Brother Lindsey and

 belt out a jam on the pontangaphone and maybe take the old lady out  for some night life.

 

[jacquesm]

I haven't been here for too long, but if you are referring to the 'battle' between over unity and contra over unity fanatics then you are mistaken, there is no such battle.

That's a battle between over unity fanatics and nature and it's a losing game from what I have seen so far.

Other than that this board absolutely ROCKS, I have received TONS of good input from folks all over the planet, both in response to postings as in emails sent to me privately, some of them very concrete, solving problems before I even realised I had them. This is probably one of the best sites on the internet.

It's a place where you can both give and take.

And if that means an argument every now and then I guess that is only human, feel free to challenge me on anything that I think is true, do your homework and prove me wrong. I'll never take offense at that, and neither should you. Being wrong is just great, it's an opportunity to learn.

[finnsawyer]

You mention sharing information.  If you browse this site you will find countless examples were people don't provide all the necessary information for the question or discussion at hand.  In some cases one has to pull the info out of them.  Although its understandable, its frustrating.  This may explain some of the acrimony that develops.  It would help if people would do their homework.  That includes the over unity people.  The claim of over unity means more energy out than in.  Measure it.  Simple as that.

For some reason I can't respond to your comment under "The Reality if Reality".  So I'll do it here.  As I understand it virtual particles wink in and out of existence, so any fields created or sustained by them will be time varying on the atomic level.  On the macroscopic level (where We live) they may appear static, but that's an illusion.  It's possible for a magnetic field to loop back on itself in space without a current source, but it would not be static and must change with time.  I'm not sure about your statement that charges don't move.  There seem to be plenty of examples of charge moving.  How do you explain the energy transfer in your electron beam, for example.

The Poynting vector for an E-M wave gives the magnitude and direction of the energy flow.  If you follow the thread on my posting about Bedini motors you can find reference to an interesting paper about resonance.  

In closing I'd like to say that interesting things may be happening on the quantum level, but any thing I can do must be done on the macroscopic level.  Consequently only effects that can be measured by me (or others) on this level matter.  But isn't that basically true of experimental physics?  

[TomW]

ifred;

My biggest gripe with some postings to the board is the need of peer review because I see some truly astounding dumps of bad and just plain wrong advice and information. Indeed, these are the things that are causing us to lose the battle except I do not consider it a battle.

Not to pick on anyone or restart any threads but I have seen people on this board claim they soldered aluminum wire to copper with standard irons and solder. I have seen it proposed that a new refrigerator will be no more efficient than a 15 year old one. I have seen it proposed that passing air thru a swamp cooler will not raise the humidity of the air.

Just a few obviously [to me] wrong sets of advice.

Thats my concern. Now just think about it and I shall not debate any of those topics I mentioned  again. Nor am I picking on anyone. I am just pointing out the range of things I have found to be absolutely false information stated as factual.

T

[jacquesm]

I'm going to get scolded for this one, but Tom, I really do know of a way to solder copper to aluminum with standard irons and solder

place aluminum to be soldered in a bath of mineral oil

sand aluminum while immersed in oil along the surface to be soldered to remove the oxide layer present (re-oxidization which would normally happen in seconds will now not happen as long as you are immersed)

Solder copper wire to aluminum while maintaining immersion. Don't use a torch or you will set the oil on fire ! Just a regular (but plenty hot) iron will do

Remove soldered piece from oil, rinse and dry.

It's an old trick, and it really works, even if the joints aren't perfect they are good enough for most purposes. The problem with soldering aluminum is not so much in the metal itsself as it is in the oxide layer on top. Same as with welding stainless steel (but there you have a little more time).

[sh123469]

I agree that in some ways the board has gone 'downhill'.  But, in other ways it is quite good or possibly better.  Anytime you have a lively, large, open debate, there are always going to be those with different opinions and some will argue with a brick wall that they are right even if proven wrong.

I think the board has benefitted well from having more people out here in the debates.  You never know who has next piece of good technical know how.  They seem to come from the darndest places sometimes.

I do believe that we all need to sit back and think about what we are sying sometimes.  Remember nobody likes to be called a fool.  If someone has a differing or disagreeing viewpoint, it can be stated quite well without name-calling or insulting the person's intelligence.  

If a person is working on an over-unity device, even though it has not been proven that they exist, he should be supported.  After all, in order to create something from 'nothing' you would have to be very very efficient.  We might learn something about efficiency from these guys.  Some of their switching techniques might well be applicable to wind or solar to achieve greater output.  They are also working to make very reliable machines and at times they are quite technically elaborate.  Everyone could benefit from some of the lessons learned on both sides, I have no doubt.

I realize that many times questions are posted without full disclosure of the surrounding facts.  Many times, this may be due to ignorance.  Not that the person is an idiot or trying to get over on someone, that he/she is not aware (ignorant) of the information needed to give a good answer to the question.  If they already knew enough to know all of the information needed, they might have answered their own question and deprived everyone else out here of the information about the solution to their problem.

To you guys out here who answer so many questions....Thank You!

I know it's hard at times to remember back to when you knew nothing or very little about the subject matter.  Please be patient.  I know it is frustrating to have to pull the answers out of someone sometimes but many of the newer people will benefit from seeing the question and answer and then by seeing the final answers.  It may actually answer someone else's question without them having to ask it.

Above all, everyone, you can give criticism in a positive as well as a negative way.  Name calling, abusiveness, degrading someone are not ever called for in an open discussion.  Have some respect for everyone else and their experiences.  We are attempting to deal with facts and opinions about what works best here for the benefit of everyone in the spirit of open peer review.  

There's my 2¢

Steve

[TomW]

jacquesm;

So, does this method actually bond the solder to the aluminum or simply lay it on the surface? Does it last and not become corroded inside the joint? Interesting process I shall have to try some day and see if it works long term like a normal soldered joint.

Cheers.

TomW

[jacquesm]

It bonds, but not very deep. You can tear it off if you really want to, but it does not corrode between the solder and the AL, and it won't fall off after a few days or so.

There is a funny story attached to this, I used to work with a guy that was absolutely god when it came to metallurgy knowledge (Hi Rinus !), he tought me a lot of stuff, and one day he bet me (and silly me I accepted) that he could solder something that I couldn't. So, he gives me this piece of alu foil and a piece of copper wire and says 'good luck'. A few days pass and I go back to him, hat in hand, knowing I'd been beaten but no idea how yet, then he showed me that trick.

Funny, now that I think of it I should probably have bet you

[Roamer195]

"over unity fanatics"

I believe this might be the type of ad hominem attack posturing that iFred is referring to.

It's interesting how you openly denigrate other people and at the same time perform a semi-sycophantic ode to the greatness of this message board.

Curious behavior.

[jacquesm]

Hey Roamer,

How are you doing ?

This message board is great, over unity fanatics are not, and I'm getting pretty tired of being called 'closed minded' by those who do not bother to even learn basic physics but insist that I am wrong (such as the guy that was equating open circuit voltage * short circuit current with power).

They suggest - like you do - that I should go and 'study' all kinds of papers'. iFred is definitely not one of those, and the word 'battle' was of his choosing, not mine. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt when it comes to designing stuff, he has done some pretty impressive engineering, and has documented proof of that. Whether the numbers in his experiments add up or not is moot, and given the time that it was ago unproveable either way, at least he gave it his best shot, and for that he gets my greatest respect.

I perceive a struggle by some folks to extract more from nature than what is technically (as far as we know at least) possible but that's fine with me, I'll watch and amuse myself. As long as nobody here blows themselves up doing their over unity stuff it's fine with me (and if they do, well, maybe it did work...).

What's wrong with thinking this board is great but overunity fanatics are not ? Do you believe this to be an attack or are you saying it is or are you putting words in iFreds mouth ? Or do you feel addressed ? IFred is pretty good at speaking for himself, and from what I can see he at least put his money where his mouth is, contrary to others who would like so called 'experts' to speak for them.

btw I'm still waiting for a response on your 'four paradoxes paper' post.

To help clarify my position:

An over unity fanatic is someone who, without having expended the neccessary brain cycles to learn the basics thinks that he/she has been given this great insight into the 'true nature' of energy and thinks that their simplistic, kitchen table built device consisting of a few magnets, springs, copper wire and / or hotmelt is going to change the world forever, if only they could iron out that last little detail. They will go to great lengths to argue with skeptics using all kinds of expensive words like 'zero point energy', 'fifth dimension' and 'aether'. They see the failure of their devices as a problem in the non-believers, not in the devices themselves or in their constructor. They throw numbers around with abandon, but very time they make some kind of numerical observation of their devices they get put down, but never mind, they'll be right back after the break with a new device.

There you go.

Have a great day, and may the force be with you.

  Jacques.

[zubbly]

Hey Jacquesm!

I was taught a long time ago by a very experienced (and old ) metalurgist how to easily solder aluminum wire to copper wire. I have done it more times than i can remember and never "ever" saw a failure or come back with a failed solder joint. I have even done it on a few lift truck motors which are under considerable current as they are connected series (field in series with armature like in a car starter)

the method is simple. the "trick" is to "Tin" the aluminum wire before attempting to solder it to the copper.

clean your aluminum wire good with a piece of emery cloth, or use a very fine file as not to remove too much material. use an electric solder iron with a good flat tip.

dip your aluminum wire into solder paste, add solder to the iron, and on a clean surface with lots of pressure start rubbing the iron back and forth over the aluminum wire. alternate the wire back and forth from the paste and solder rubbing a few times or as many times as needed. what you are basically doing is forcing solder into the pores of the aluminum and creating a slick of solder on the aluminum wire.

now wrapp your aluminum and copper wire together and solder as you usually would any two copper wires. you will see the solder "sucked" equally to both wires.

zubbly  

[zubbly]

Hello iFred!  

I too have been here for a little while ( maybe a year and a bit ) and have greatly enjoyed all the posts on genny building, solar, different ideas ( some far fetched and some not so far ) and in general most of the posts. i just don't read in the areas that do not interest me.

But i do not believe that there is a "battle" of any sort going on at this board. What i do observe are "people being people" and voicing their ideas concerns and dreams.

I am rather "entertained" by all the (lets call it debates and constructive arguments ) that go on here, and amazed at how much info that is contained in them.

But, lets not forget that it takes many ingredients to bake a good cake and like wise a good posting board. missing just one ingredient just some how changes the cake.

I think the lever is just stuck in "neutral" and someone needs to nudge it back into gear and get this board moving again.

so i suggest that someone make a posting about their latest project "HOPEFULLY WITH LOTS OF PICS THAT I REALLY REALLY ENJOY"

oh, and iFred, i would really love to see what further advances you have made on that (i think it was called a magnetic interupter or deflector)project. i do beleive you are on to something there and will input my 2 cents worth on it some time in the future.

wishing everyone the best

zubbly

[iFred]

After reading all of your posts,  they all come to a single conclusion., I believe I must be wrong then. I apologize for it if I have wronged anyone, was not my intention. Therefore I plead for forgiveness. My perception was from speaking to others and listening and reading posts that their was a problem?? ( I like to find equitable solutions). I LOVE THIS MESSAGE BOARD. That is why I wanted to protect it, not harm it. perceptions are a funny thing, totally human and sometimes misguided. Gotta watch for these in the future. In this case disregard my message and please continue with the great posts.  Sorry.

Also...

Roamer195:

>> sycophantic : attempting to win favor from influential people by flattery..

no, I don't think so, I don't need to proove anything. If someone does or does not like me or what I say then so be it. I am honest, not deciving. I don't need that kind of attention. Thanks but no thanks.

denigrate?? Was not my intent, if I have denigrated anyone at all, then I totally and humbly apologize. I totally and completely respect the creators of this board and the vested experience and knowledge that they have provided so graciously. They have done all this without recovering costs or asking for anything in return. The message board is free to use as is the information on all the web sites. Gezzz. Just the internet costs themselves add up and are exorbitant to say the least of the programming hours and knowledge to create it. I think that you have mis-interpreted my intent.

[drdongle]

 I want to point out that this particular means of communications ( text)while great for passing facts and figures kind of information is a very poor method of passing more subtle emotional information. The use of "emoticons" is one method used to alleviate this problem, but the medium still lacks a simple and full proof method to pass on the emotional cues we all get from the timber of a voice and of seeing facial expressions, both of which are under rated for their ability to fill in information regarding attitude, humor, anger, sympathy and so forth.

 So what I'm getting to is the idea that we ALL need to step back and take a deep breath when ever we read something that pushes our buttons, more than likely there was no intent to belittle, insult or anger.

 I know that some times I come off a bit abrupt, in reality I have a tendency to try to express as much information in as few words as possible ( it's the band width don't you know).

Carpe Vigor

Dr.D

[jacquesm]

Hi Zubbly,

hehe, that one is even easier. You basically combine the sanding and the soldering stage (I think the 'rubbing' does not make the solder enter the AL, I think it scrapes off the oxide layer, and the paste protects it from reoxidization).

Thank you, I might have a use for that. The oil trick always was pretty messy.

So, this is one more reason why this board is awesome, in the morning "it can't be done", and by dinner time there are two different and valid solutions.

I've found some of the stuff that you told me to get (local motor winding shop had a gallon tin), I have read the MSDS for it and I'm pretty scared... that stuff is bad. It's good I already have a kid or I'd be afraid to get one with two heads.

[drdongle]

I know that at one time there was a solder on the market just for AL, one of my Ham mentors had some and demonstrated it to me, I had an axial electrolytic cap from which one wire had broken off and the end rivet ( which had held the wire was AL) he sand papered the rivet and soldered a new lead on slicker than snot.

Carpe Vigor

Dr.D

[veewee77]

All, in all, I think this board ROCKS!

Not a day goes by that I don't learn something from it.  And yes, I am addicted to it!  I read it every day if possible,a dn many days, several times!

Let's keep it whatever happens!

Forever learning!

I once was one of those OU guys!  But thanks to the patience and teaching I received from the guys on this board, I have come to realize that OU is not possible with what we have available to us today.  I am not so closed minded, though that someone, someday may actually get close to U but I do not believe that OU is attainable.

Those of you who believe OU is attainable, keep it up! you may find it someday.

Those of you (us) who do not believe it is attainable, don't slam those that do.  Give them the facts, and your personal experiences and if they can't see it, don't worry about it.  But whatever happens, just don't argue about it!

One day, just like in my shoes, it will be proven that OU is not likely to happen.

On other topics, such as wind power, water power, solar power and math involved with all of these, the resources on this board are, in my opinion, the best around.

Keep up all the great work guys!

Doug

[nobicus]

I have been reading this board for about three weeks and ifred said everything that I want to.  Arthur C Clarke says that any science that you do not understand is "magic" or words to that effect.  Well most of this site is "magic" to me and as for overunity well!!!  And really?  And just ?  I do try to keep an open mind and would not call anyone a fool but I am having difficulty with  shaping blades let alone trying for anything else.

Regarding soldering to aluminium there is a system on sale in the UK where the "weld metal" is kept liquid with a standard torch and the surface underneath (the bits to be joined ) are scratched with either stainless steel wire or a stainless steel "toothbrush".  I have seen motor cycle frames done like this and you can't pull them apart.  The demonstrator at the Kit Car Shows usually joins coke cans to something and then challenges anyone to pull 'em apart.

[tecker]

 Ok you just the retoriec out of your system cause Scrounge 3 rev 5  ( My latest and greatest pulse motor)is up and running with some good measurments I'll throw the pics

up  . It's charging well I'm getting close .

[tecker]

   That's  rhetoric  what I put spelled was the Kook spelling same word though.

[BSparky]

 Naw ifred one don't have yield to them. This board still rocks second to none... I've been coming to this board for many years. Don't have the time to post as I would like, but more or less read. These cycles come and go. Soon it will pass and the best will come out. I've seen it before here will happen again.

Out of collage first job had more PhDs MDs over my head then buzzards over a prey. Thinkers, and smarta$$ due to the lack of terms. Worked more than a decade in R&D in the frontier days of CAT and MRI scanners where concepts were born and put to rest. This infighting here is nothing to the day to day harassments of their self proclaim intelligentsia. What kept me going, and blasted them in every turn is the rebel attitude take what been said as a gain of salt then prove it to yourself.

What I look for, and smile about this forum that many of us here are like those rebels of learning. We are told at a very young age don't touch that stove because it's hot.

We today keep touching that stove to make sure it stays hot.

Bsparky.

[BSparky]

Ahh, no editing.

What I look for, and smile about this forum that many of us here are like those rebels of learning. We are told at a very young age don't "TO" touch that stove because it's hot. We today keep touching that stove to make sure it stays hot.

Years of having a tech writer had soften me on grammar.bad bad bad

Bsparky.

[Roamer195]

There is no logical discourse possible on this board without excessive ad hominem attacks from those with dessenting opinions. What you might be "sick of" is of no concern to me.

It takes about 3 hours to put together a basic Bedini system once you know what the critical aspects of the system are. But, you'll only "know" what you already "know" from your cookbooks since you'll never break away from angry postings long enough to build anything.

I'm not going to discuss philosophy and I'm not going to participate in any further flame wars.

This means: I'm not here to argue. I have no time for this nonsense.

I'll just post device specs from now on and you folks can do with them whatever you want.

Most posts will be in diary entries for anyone that's INTERESTED IN THE INFO. If you wish to wage any flame attacks on diary material, PLEASE just make a nice fresh attack post in one of the other forums and have your knife party there. Fair enough?

.end (of my participation in newsgroup style debates)

[jacquesm]

> since you'll never break away from angry postings long enough to build anything.

check my diary...

[finnsawyer]

If it takes three hours to make the device why can't you get an oscilloscope and spend another three hours making some definitive measurements; mainly energy in and energy out per second?  It seems it would make a good productive day.  Or how about sending me the parts and instructions.  I'd be happy to pay a reasonable amount to put this baby to bed.  Hell, how about a finished model.  If you don't want to make the measurements, I'll be happy to do it and I'll post the results here.

[zubbly]

Bad? of coarse its bad. any unnatural product that we use today requires proper ventilation and safety wear. the MSDS label should spell out all the possible harmful stuff in it. Did you know that the standard building materials we use in houses today contain many cancer causing agents? as well as that new car smell we all seem to love has been proven to cause cancer.

Its also amazing how much spray paint is sold on the market at public retail stores for our use and i think a good part of it used without any safety equip and is never considered by many people.

you made a good point there, and we all should remind each other more frequently of the hazards of many products and take all the necessary safety precautions.

in the future i shall be more apt to remind of safety when suggesting a product.

have a great day!

zubbly

[TomW]

Everyone;

Ok, I stand corrected and accept that aluminum can be soldered if done properly.

Funny, I thought the other 2 examples would be taken to task. Anyway, I was wrong. It happens. I apologize for disseminating false information.

With that I take my hat in my hand and slink away.

Cheers.

TomW

[jacquesm]

real men are not afraid to be wrong

[Electric Ed]

The only "overunity folks" that I have a problem with are the ones that are taking advantage of the gullible among us, by trying to sell their ideas, in the form of "shares" or "dealerships" for their "yet to be developed" enterprises.

I suppose the best of them are trying to finance their "invention" which they believe to be feasable, while the worst of them are just plain scammers.

I don't think there is anything wrong with trying to expose the latter group.

EE  

[drdongle]

Might I suggest a better phrasing of this: "Real Men are not afraid to admit when it has been proved that they are wrong".

Carpe Vigor

Dr.D