Renewable/Portable power generation and Storage

[K3CZ]

With the rampup in petroleum prices (gasoline to $10/gal by the end of the decade expected) due to intersection of decreasing producing reserve availability vs increasing consumption curves, interest has been rekindled on a worldwide scale for alternatives.  Prime among these is, of course, biodiesel, being championed by many sources, celebrity and otherwise (Willy Nelson?).  The use of such naturally grown and extracted fuel has perhaps the least impact on current lifestyles of any of the alternatives.  One can purchase a gallon of corn oil at the local supermarket, pour it into his Mercedes or other diesel, and motor off merrily.

Which brings me to my point: Homegrown fuel.  The technology for recycling Waste Vegetable Oil (WVO), even in consumer sized batches, is well established and published in the Green Press.  One can also grow one of several oilseed crops (soy, corn, coconut, canola,  rapeseed, etc.) on most any arable acreage, and most grains seem to contain 30-40% oil.

However, there seems to be a gap here -  how does one get from a grain crop to oil?  I have searched the internet, and very little material is available concerning oil extraction, especially on a small batch basis.  Has anybody who reads this Board researched the process and hypothesized small batch extraction?  I understand that the main industrial practice involves crushing (flaking) the grain, and then flooding the material with Hexane gas to disolve the oil, then condensing out the oil from the Hexane.  Ouch! Are there any other processes adaptable to small scale? Such capability would seem to have enormous potential in our future society of widely distributed energy production.

                                                K3CZ    

[ghurd]

On the refining end, I bet before it would be viable for a consumer, it would be profitable for a comercial venture. Bigger is always cheaper.

About 20 years ago, Native American Indians had some desert plant that would grow about anywhere with little effort. Something special about how they easily and how much oil came out of it.  Might be worth a search, but not much to go on.

G-

[fishfarm]

Most small scale processes I have seen involve cold pressing the oilseed. An exerpt from this site:

http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel.html

Grow your own

Rapeseed (Brassica Napus), or canola, produces about 2,000 pounds of seed per acre, yielding about 100 gallons of vegetable oil for fuel, and 1,200 pounds of high-protein meal (seedcake) that can be used for livestock feed or as an organic fertilizer.

The seedcake could also be used to make ethanol, and so could the several tons of crop wastes.

Yields from soybeans are about 60 gallons per acre, from coconuts more than 200 gallons per acre, and from oil palms more than 500 gallons per acre. (See Vegetable oil yields.)

For small-timers, one bushel of soybeans produces about 1.5 gallons of biodiesel -- that's about six to one by volume, and three to one for canola (rapeseed).

For a range of oilseed presses, from hand-powered presses you can make yourself to 150-tons per day industrial models, see Oilseed presses at our Biofuels supplies and suppliers page.

[CarlB]

I think the plant to which you are referring is "Jojoba" (hoe-hoe-bah).

Olive oil is pre-industrial; a quick google produced hits describing the use of wooden screw-type presses and presses utilizing massive stones.

[K3CZ]

Hey - thats a pretty comprehensive site, with lots of additional directions to explore.  It will take me quite a while to explore all of them - thanks!!    K3CZ

[redeyecow]

   I can't help noticing the failure to mention the potential

of hemp seed oil for the production of low cost fuel.  One of the

problems with conventional grains is the high cost of production.

   ie: high fuel input, fertilizer costs, pesticides, and herbicides etc.

       plus the use of high quality land that is normally used for food crops.

  Around this area the original Ukranian pioneers brought hemp seeds with them

  from the old country, and produced a high quality cooking and salad oil with

  some kind of small press.  Some old people were still doing this a few years

  ago.

  It seems that hemp is extremely drought resistant and grows well on low quality

  soil. Also it is highly resistant to competative weeds and insects.

   It produces the highest quality fiber in the world which could also be turned into

    ethanol.

  Anyway , It seems like industrial hemp(no dope) would be a natural choice but I

  think it ran into problems with the lumber lobby, (cheap fiber); chemical industry

lobby,(high resistance) and of course the paranoia.

   Even though I live in the Saudi Arabia of North America (Alberta) it still hurts to pull up to the pumps.

   up to those pumps.

[scottsAI]

The practical limit on the cost of gas is near. Here is why:

Lets start out with some working assumptions.

We can adjust later if data is different.

Average person drives 12,000 miles per year.

Average fuel economy is 20 miles per gal.

Therefore needs 600 gal of gas.

Average person spends <$1500 per year on fuel for the car. This is on the high side.

I had studied this problem a few years ago. I concluded 5 acres of corn could produce enough fuel for 12,000 miles. Fuel economy is better today so maybe less.

Average acre produces 100 bushels of corn. Cost is $2.xx. Lets call it $2.50.

5 * 100 * 2.5 = $1250.

The corn must be fermented into Alcohol for the fuel. Not sure about the oil...

The fermenting and distillation will have a cost, so lets say 50%, which I expect to be on the high side. 1250 * 1.5 = $1875 including the transportation charge.

A profit must be made so 2x, (typical profit) now at $3750.

3750/600 = $6.25 will be the max possible price of gas.

The fermenting and distillation is a simple process and not costly to build. You can make a system in your back yard:-) The distillation needs heat, the corn stalks can be used. Return the ash to the fields.

Not included in the calculations is the mash left over, it's worth more than the corn as feed. Not sure of the ratio of dried mash to bushels of core. But is must be at least 2:1.

I conclude when the price gets near $4, the alcohol will become a real possibility.

Our modern vehicles can run on pure alcohol without modification.

You may not know it, but gas today has 10-20% alcohol already.

The reality of the above example is here today.

I consider corn to be one of the more costly solutions.

Lets apply Alchemy to the problem.

Have fun.

[DanG]

Two days ago Minnesota adopted plans to have 20% ethanol in all its gasoline by 2009. Since we are up here at the end of the pipeline, gasoline gets diluted down by fractional equivalents decided by what's cheapest on the commodity market, as much toluene as petroleum seems like sometimes. Objects in mirror are closer then they appear...

[nanotech]

Heh, I'm up here in the frozen wasteland as well.  Thief River Falls area.  What about you?

I'm looking at growing corn to use directly as a fuel to heat my house.  Those corn burner stoves are looking more and more attractive!!

[ghurd]

I can't believe there is as much heat in $50 worth of corn as $5 worth of slabs.

Or $50 worth of cut seasoned stacked firewood. Or $50 of coal.

Slabs are free around here in the off season, they burn them out back just to be rid of them.

Probably depends a lot on where you are.

I don't burn anything around here.  Just installing a burner will raise my years home insurance MORE than my total years gas bill!

Doesn't make sense with my current income (or lack there of).

G-

[TERRYWGIPE]

I uploaded an article that you may find useful, try this link.



take a look, but don't forget methane through either wood gasification or digestion.

Terry

[nothing to lose]

"Just installing a burner will raise my years home insurance MORE than my total years gas bill!"

Tiss another reason to live cheap in a junky house, freedom to do as you please without kissing the insurnace companies A$$ every day or the fear of raising rates just because you let the grass grow an inch to high. Oh dear, can't have tall grass it could dry and become a brush fire, raise rates $200 or just cancel you out after you throw away the premiums for many years with never a claim for anything.

Seen it happen to others too many times. I'd rather live in fear of "MAYBE" having a fire and losing the house than to live in fear of an insurance company every day of my life.

What I have saved in many years of NOT paying insurnace, NOT paying interest, NOT heating with wood or gas, etc... would be enough money to replace anything I'd lose in a fire and I have been happier!!

Course I don't have that money, spent it all as it was saved, so I geuss I would just live in a box for while till I could build something else

[nothing to lose]

One of the things to think on is stop trashing used feuls. What is actually done with all this restaraunt used cooking oils. I have a friend who owns a restaraunt, I will be getting oil from him, but other wise he would be dumping into an oil dumpster and having to pay to have it hauled away! WHY??

Small place, he said I can proably get 20-40 gals a week maybe just from his place.

Money got tight all at once and I still have to get some barrels, but I will be getting it when I can.

There is probably enough fast food oil dumped each week to get half the employees back and forth to work for free! Probably all of them! Think of the feul savings in that alone! How many people actaully work in all those fast food joints, and every corner has 2 plus all those in the middle of the block!

Run that used oil as feul and that's so much that does not have to be grown for just feul use. Press those fries before you eat them and you can drive a mile yourself

Chances are once you press the oil out of corn, you can still make something to drink and be happy, and then feed the cows or hogs still too, if your able to walk that far

Hogs and cows make more fertalizer to grow more corn with.

[farmerfrank]

Being both a farmer and having worked in an ethanol plant I see a few little gaps. First,corn may be $2.50 per bushel but last year farmers were paying up to 70 per bushel to dry it to a moisture where it will keep. This cost,along with the price of nitrogen and fuel will surely double, or triple by the end of the decade as will the price of gas.

Secondly, ethanol is mixed with gas,as pure ethanol,as of now can not be used in its pure state. Todays engines will not burn pure ethanol for any length of time.

I would also predict that as ethanol becomes more widespread, the government will tax it more,eliminating any bargains.

farmerfrank

[BeenzMeenzWind]

I do keep mentioning this, but...

In the UK, we already pay over $6.00 a gallon for fuel. ScottAI said that should be the maximum sustainable price. Why does it keep getting dearer, then? Err...

Cos most of the price is tax, paid to the government so we can sustain the various pointless programs aimed at getting us to stop using our cars, making war on Iraq (and soon Iran, watch this space) to secure 'our' oil and making the beauracracy more dense, so we can't legally do anything about our plight. People started to use biodiesel, so... they put the fuel tax on that too! The official policy is that tax on fuel is to promote efficient use and protect the environment, but steps you take towards eco-friendliness are met with swift and stern retribution in the form of a whole new lot of taxes.

I'm not kidding, if you guys in the US had to pay what we do for fuel there'd be a civil war or military coup or something. And you guys STILL want to use biodiesel made from used cooking oil, even though your gas stations effectively GIVE you the fuel! Imagine how we feel?

[elvin1949]

the mother earth news ran a few stories on this.

back in the 70's i think.

later

elvin

[scottsAI]

I was hoping to get people thinking about it and see my Illusions.

Since you ask.

UK the price of corn is higher? So your math will be different. I notice when I was there everything is more expensive, wages are less. Taxes are high.

Second, the price of corn is <$2. (looked it up) Futures are predicting $3.

Third, Corn produces more than 2 gal per bushel.

Millage is much better than my original (years ago) calculations. (half the corn needed)

Forth, I did not include any taxes, which account for half the cost.

So two errors canceled out, ended up being correct final price.

People will demand tax relief and get it, when the price gets this high.

Other effects; increase the demand for corn, then the price will rise.

Economics will balance the cost of oil against corn.

Sugar can be very cheap, lower cost than corn. Sugar is what makes Alcohol, supplementing the corn with sugar will increase the Alcohol production. Or eliminating the corn all together. Many other sources of sugar. Best price will be used.

If alternate fuels are used, the demand for oil will drop, reducing it's price.

Corn for Alcohol will save the farmers the drying cost (nice point). You want the corn nice and juicy. In the right locations solar can be used to distill and dry the mash. (not likely)

Reading up on this after my post, over 60 millions gal of alcohol are used today, mixed with gas.

Problems with Alcohol in production cars today:

Pure alcohol is almost impossible. Alcohol loves water. About the best you can do is 95% any drink you get claiming >190 proof is BS.

Alcohol and water are very corrosive to your engine, that is why the percentage is limited. Remember when Gasohol come out? Was the same thing gas is today. The gas mix was changed never told people until years later. (I did not hear it...)

Alcohol absorbs water, when <92% it won't burn in the engine.

Energy density of alcohol is only 70% of gas. So, your fuel economy will decrease. The rest of the story is the compression can be upped to 12:1 vs 8.4:1 today. This makes up for the lower energy density, ending with 90%. So, you will see 10% fuel economy reduction. The octane of alcohol is like 150, anybody know? The compression ratio could be made higher, but the engine cost more. The same problem Diesel has.

Corn only captures <3% of the sun when using the Alcohol. Even cheap solar panels do 3 times that well. Storage is the problem. Hydrogen is not the answer.

There are many solutions, we need the prices of energy to go up, so we can start using the alternates. Breaking our need of oil.

All Alchemist please step forward and solve this problem.

(Please tear this apart, Using FACTS. But be nice:-) and

Have fun.

[farmerfrank]

Your right, the price of crude must go up before we smarten up and stop messing up the world. Ever notice how many people still speed which wastes fuel so it must still be cheap. Tapping into Alaskan oil isn't even putting a patch on the problem, more like putting more air into a leaky tire. Nuclear sounds modern, but not a good option. It only postones the inevitable problems for next generations.

Burning any substance, although some are better than others, still creates environment problems. Alaska is melting while my corn rots under the May snow. Something wrong here....big time.

American farmers are subsidised and corn can not be produced for $2.50 a bushel with any sort of profit. And yes corn still has to be dried even if converted to alcohol as it will rot to an unusable state within weeks of harvest if not dried. The way energy is increasing in price, it will cost more than $2.50 a bushel to dry within 5 years. Then theres the sugar and the Cuban embargo. Cuban sugar is about 3 cents a pound delivered by the boat load. American sugar is about 19 cents I believe although extra sugar is not required for ethanol production. There are many complaints about the odor coming from ethanol plants which radiat for miles.

I'm afraid solar, hydro and wind energy are the only solutions. Nice to see companies like BP sticking some of their record profits into solar cells.

the farmer

[finnsawyer]

For sure the little issue of getting the corn planted and to grow, namely diesel fuel and fertilizer, both of which require the expenditure of energy to get it to the farmer so he can use it has costs.  These costs will also go up in lock step with the cost of oil.  The cost of replacement machinery (unless China keeps giving it away) will also go up.

If they can come up with a biological oil source where you just spread the seed, sit

back and watch it grow, and then harvest it, it might work.  We just have to get the big energy costs out of the picture.

[finnsawyer]

The deer around here love the canola when it's growing.  Some varieties they eat down to the ground.  So now we need 15 foot fences?

[troy]

In a low-tech (do-it-yourself) operation, it takes approx one gallon of fossil fuel to produce one gallon of ethanol.  In a high-tech, high efficiency operation, you could get at best l.7 gallons of ethanol out for every gallon of fossil fuel input.  That's using state of the art catalytic conversion techniques that you just can't do yourself.

Oil crops on the other hand, generally yield 3-5 gallons of fuel out per gallon of input.  Using waste veggie oil converted to biodiesel, it can go as high as 7 or 8 gallons out per gallon invested.

This has been studied a lot.  Do a google search on the phrase:

Energy

Returned

On

Energy

Invested

Or EROEI for short.

So don't plan on saving the world growing your own ethanol, unfortunately.  I wish it were that easy.  As a junior and senior in high school, I was doing research on distillation techniques that would be appropriate for agriculture back when we were going broke raising cattle and hogs and growing corn in the late 70's.  It was quite a shock to realize that it's essentially a losing proposition.

Good luck and have fun.

troy

[TomW]

Troy;

Great points often lost on city folks who seem to think farming is simply tossing a handful of seeds on the ground and watching the bin fill!

Fuel, fertilizer, lubricants, repairs and oh did I mention capital investment in land and equipment?

Cheers.

TomW

[asheets]

If gasoline prices go to $x, then count on any fuel produced on the farm to cost $x+y.  Ethanol prices are what they are today because of govt subsidies.

[scottsAI]

OK, took advice, since it's what I usually say. Link:

http://www.ethanol-gec.org/corn_eth.htm

Summery:

The U.S. ethanol industry grew from practically zero production in the late 1970's to over 1 billion gallons in 1994, spurred by national energy security concerns, new Federal gasoline standards, and government incentives. Each gallon of ethanol produced domestically displaces 7 gallons of imported oil. In addition, production of ethanol is energy efficient, in that it yields nearly 25 percent more energy than is used in growing the corn, harvesting it, and distilling it into ethanol.

Interesting data, good read what do you think? Bunch of BS or is the info good?

Never talks about the price of ethanol, or the cost of anything. Just the EROEI.

Have fun.

[finnsawyer]

Could you run your car for a week on the oil used to cook the fries you eat each week?  Using used cooking oil only works on the margins.  There isn't enough produced for everyone's energy needs.  Also, raising crops just for their oils is also marginal.  They need a crop that requires no tillage and no fertilizer.  Of course, then you get into questions of land use.  Well, who needs trees anyway.  Come to think of it, I do.

"The devil is always in the details."

[ghurd]

I was talking to a cook at Red Lobster. They go through around 40 gallons every day. 8 friers at about 5 gallons each, he figures. EVERY DAY!

My wife and I don't use that much gas in the cars every month.

I can imagine the strange phone calls they will be getting today. LOL.

G-

[finnsawyer]

But how many families live near that Red Lobster.  Take the 40 gallons and divide it by that number.  That's how much each family gets per day.  Or add all the oil used by all the restaurants in the area.  When spread over all the potential fuel users in the area it probably won't be enough.

[ghurd]

There would not be much competition for it here at least.

It is hard to find auto grade diesel, only a few stations have it.

Very few diesels around here, a few bigger pick-ups, a few VW and Mercedes.

I had a VW diesel, and can only think of maybe 6 stations with auto-grade diesel in maybe a 30 mile radius.

This is the center of the 500 mile circle that contains the most people possible in North America (Marketing trivia, most peoples full day drive). So split between the population that is not much oil!

G-

[troy]

Well, again, let's compare ethanol to biodiesel:

1. gallon of petroleum imput yields:
   
1. 25 gallons ethanol (using your number) vs
   
3. -5 gallons biodiesel.
   
   

So you come out ahead .25 gallon and I come out ahead 2-4 gallons, making biodiesel 8-16 times more efficient based on Energy returned vs energy invested.  

Clearly the winner is biodiesel,

Sincerely,

troy

[hvirtane]

I think that ethanol is reasonable

is you'll use solar distillers.

For veggie oils the hottest thing

today seems to be Jatropha, which

grows almost on desert areas.

Research on Jatropha is

going on in Mali, South Africa,

India, Pakistan...

- Hannu