Author Topic: A wind gen as a static device  (Read 438 times)

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whatsnext

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A wind gen as a static device
« on: June 16, 2005, 09:51:48 PM »
Lately a lot of us here have been discussing various wind gen designs. HAWT's to VAWT's ,lift VS drag, and RPM VS torque. A lot of these threads get wiped out or posting gets restricted because the mods don't want us bickering which is their right. One thing I have noticed though is that there seems to be a real lack of understanding of what some of us think is pretty straightfoward engineering principles. First things first: wind gens are not static devices. Therefore, plotting polars or force vectors as though the blades are stopped doesn't really tell you anything. Additionally, looking at blade designs as though the mill is stopped lulls people into thinking that torque rules and that we should try to stop as much of the wind as possible. This is a mistake. Wind has available energy because is has mass and is moving so we are trying to extract a bit of that kinetic enenery. Just for fun imagine what would happen, if at some point in time, you could extract it all. The air just past your mill would stop because you've extrated all it's power. Wind however is pretty smart. The next little bit of moving air in front of your mill would have two choices: smash through the stopped air your mill has just created while giving up all it's power to your blades(hard), or just go around your mill(easy). This is the reason why we have theoretical extraction limits. We need two things to get horsepower from our mills, torque and RPM, the later of which is the easiest to get without disturbing the wind flow too much. It is also the only way to get horsepower.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2005, 09:51:48 PM by (unknown) »

windstuffnow

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Re: A wind gen as a static device
« Reply #1 on: June 16, 2005, 05:17:25 PM »
  I think most of us that are tinkering with ideas realize that the machines aren't "static" and we don't treat them as such.  But the idea has to come from somewhere so the drawings might appear to represent a static machine.  Unfortunately, you can't blow on a drawing to see how it works and the design must be built and tested.  You can, however, calculate and conceptualize to a certain degree and come up with a reasonable outcome of the design before you spend money and build it.  Although, sometimes it doesn't always work the way you thought it would and its back to the "static" drawing board.  
« Last Edit: June 16, 2005, 05:17:25 PM by windstuffnow »
Windstuff Ed

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Re: A wind gen as a static device
« Reply #2 on: June 16, 2005, 06:14:17 PM »
Wind has available energy because is has mass and is moving so we are trying to extract a bit of that kinetic enenery. Just for fun imagine what would happen, if at some point in time, you could extract it all. The air just past your mill would stop because you've extrated all it's power. Wind however is pretty smart. The next little bit of moving air in front of your mill would have two choices: smash through the stopped air your mill has just created while giving up all it's power to your blades(hard), or just go around your mill(easy). This is the reason why we have theoretical extraction limits.


You're talking about the Betz Limit, which has been discussed in detail here.


You have to slow down the wind to extract energy.  But slowing down the wind reduces the amount of air through your mill to extract energy from.  Extract all the energy and you get no more air to extract energy from.  So there's some happy medium extraction percentage where you get the maximum total energy from a given swept cross-section of air.  (Very much like the laffer curve for government income versus tax rates, where higher taxes slow down the economy, and a 100% tax rate stops it dead.  B-) )


Betz identified the issue and calculated the maximum extractable fraction of wind energy.  It's about 59.6%


From that you can calculate the amount you want to slow the air to transfer the right amount of energy to your blades to get the most from the swept area.  And from that you calculate your blades.  Vor a HWAT a little figuring gives you a "static airflow" model of how fast the blades are moving at each radius, what apparent wind they see, how much they deflect it, and the forces that result.


A high TSR (tip speed ratio) HAWT (horizontal axis wind turbine, i.e. a "prop on a stick with a tail") can easily get within a couple percent of the Betz Limit, and the designs have been proven in wind tunnels.  The guys here, near as I can tell, are using the design rules to build exactly such blades.


(VAWTs (vertical axis ...) don't do as well - like they fall off from the ideal by maybe a third or worse, depending on type.  But they have other advantages - like working well in turbulent areas and being easy to make BIG, to compensate for the reduced efficiency.  Nevertheless, the HWAT designs work so well in most places where you have enough open land to raise a turbine, are so simple to make and raise into faster wind, and so easy to design to automatically protect themselves from high wind, that they end up being the big winners here.)


Point being, though, that a little analysis and simplification eliminates the need to deal with the complex tradeoffs you're concerned about in a single lump.  Once you know where the sweet spot is, you just go for it and ignore the rest, then deal with the situations when you can't hit it by other simple rules.  Analysis lets you resolve the mass of complexity into a combination of a small set of much simpler pieces.


When you have a complex problem, split it into simple problems and solve those.  Fundamental design principle.


Of course when you walk into a design discussion after that analysis is done, you'll just see the consideration of the simple components.  This can look like the complex problem hasn't been addressed.

« Last Edit: June 16, 2005, 06:14:17 PM by Ungrounded Lightning Rod »

rotornuts

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Re: A wind gen as a static device
« Reply #3 on: June 17, 2005, 12:44:21 AM »
As Ed has pointed out when tinkering with an idea you need to do static drawing to visualize the design. Most of the drawings I do represent something at a specific moment in it's rotation so one can see what is happening at that time. Two moments are usually of particular interest. One is a moment of high torque production and the other is a moment of torque failure. Representations are often simplified based on what I feel is likely to happen. You, unfortunately, are unlikely to get an totally accurate representation of what the individual understands because representing everthing that is involved at every point of operation in all appearant winds at all points of rotation and for Vawt's above and below tsr 1 and also correcting for solidity and potentially increased wind speeds on the left or right depending on rotation and solidity or when flow breaks down or, or, or is simply too exausting for most posts. So you pick a point and represent it as a static moment. Besides lacking a windtunnel I don't see another way to do it as I don't think the smartest man here can do much more than guess at what's really going to happen unless a design is well researched and tested.


Gotta start somewhere. Btw, some designs you see here may seem extreame but in my experience significant results can come from seamingly rediculous ideas even if it's only realizing the idea was rediculous.


Good luck getting to RPM without any torque


Mike

« Last Edit: June 17, 2005, 12:44:21 AM by rotornuts »

finnsawyer

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Re: A wind gen as a static device
« Reply #4 on: June 17, 2005, 08:24:00 AM »
You can also have a situation of "dynamic constancy".  For instance, the force on a section of blade (an annular ring say) can be constant as it moves at a constant speed around the axis.  Then the power developed by that section is equal to the force times its velocity.  If you know the force and velocity as a function of radius you can use calculus to find the total power out.  So, one is not necessarily limited to "static" analysis alone.  One could also calculate the total torque in that case.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2005, 08:24:00 AM by finnsawyer »

finnsawyer

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Re: A wind gen as a static device
« Reply #5 on: June 19, 2005, 09:31:23 AM »
I mean the "small" section of blade traces out an annular ring as it moves.  Hope this helps.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2005, 09:31:23 AM by finnsawyer »

jamesjones

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Re: A wind gen as a static device
« Reply #6 on: June 19, 2005, 03:28:44 PM »
"We need two things to get horsepower from our mills, torque and RPM, the later of which is the easiest to get without disturbing the wind flow too much. It is also the only way to get horsepower."


How do sailing ships get their power from the wind when in drag mode? Or even when in lift mode? We are talking about tens of kilowatts from sails. If RPM were the be all and end all, no drag based device could produce enough power to move a huge boat through the sea.


If you want to talk about RPM- look at the RePower 5M! Does 6.9 RPM sound slow enough? Imagine a new HAWT twice the size, with half the RPM! Where does the horsepower come from then?


The constant tip speed ratio means that the bigger a HAWT gets, the slower it will turn, RPM wise.


A two metre model cannot accurately represent a 200 metre turbine...

« Last Edit: June 19, 2005, 03:28:44 PM by jamesjones »

jamesjones

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Re: A wind gen as a static device
« Reply #7 on: June 19, 2005, 03:33:07 PM »
"A high TSR (tip speed ratio) HAWT (horizontal axis wind turbine, i.e. a "prop on a stick with a tail") can easily get within a couple percent of the Betz Limit, and the designs have been proven in wind tunnels."


But the testers obviously forgot what a TSR is...

Because when you scale up the design to a real world, 80m monster, the tip speed ratio is the same, so the RPM goes WAY down...


Therefore most of the air just flies clean through the huge spaces between the blades.


Where are the large scale turbines that are extracting close to the Betz limit of energy from the wind? And if anybody claims they exist - can they tell me how the huge quantities of wind (I'm guessing 70% on the RePower 5M) that gets clean through the swept area without being able to even affect the blades one little bit, manages to have its energy extracted?


Does anybody here agree with me that there is a difference between how much wind 'gets through' the swept area of a 2m HAWT versus a 200m HAWT, with the same Tip Speed Ratios?

« Last Edit: June 19, 2005, 03:33:07 PM by jamesjones »

jamesjones

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Re: A wind gen as a static device
« Reply #8 on: June 19, 2005, 03:36:15 PM »
"(VAWTs (vertical axis ...) don't do as well - like they fall off from the ideal by maybe a third or worse, depending on type."


Can you show me where the evidence of this is? I've been searching hard for the last year for research into sail based VAWTs, and haven't found any, so I presume you're talking about blade based VAWTs.


All that matters is - how much is the cost per kilowatt. Nothing else matters. Even if a VAWT were found that was better than any HAWT, it wouldn't matter unless its cost per kilowatt was less, because who would build it?

« Last Edit: June 19, 2005, 03:36:15 PM by jamesjones »

whatsnext

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Re: A wind gen as a static device
« Reply #9 on: June 20, 2005, 09:09:26 AM »
If you really want to learn how sailboats operate try going to a library. You're making assumptions about drag V lift while at the same time admitting that you don't know about either. Sailboats require very little power to head downwind. This is a very good thing because the sails are producing much less power when used as drag devices. This is why downwind sails are so large. It helps to make up for the lack of available power. The only time downwind sails make large amounts of power is when the aparent wind speed exceeds the boats hull speed and at that point it's wasted unless the boat can get up on plane. Build all the drag mills you want. Calculate static torque and make believe it equals power. Build a VAWT that stops all the wind and watch what happens.

John.....
« Last Edit: June 20, 2005, 09:09:26 AM by whatsnext »

jamesjones

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Re: A wind gen as a static device
« Reply #10 on: June 20, 2005, 10:50:48 AM »
"Sailboats require very little power to head downwind."


Could you elaborate a little? Does a sailing boat require less power when heading downwind than when heading upwind? How? Why?


Disregarding the effect of the wind on the hull of the ship itself, why would the boat need less power when travelling through water in any direction?


Have you never flown a large kite?

Never done land yachting? No lift involved there (correct me if I'm wrong).

Large sails can extract huge amounts of energy from the wind, when acting as drag devices. Why do you think otherwise?

Get a sail 100 feet by 100 feet and see how much it can drag along the ground, using purely drag forces. Don't you think it would be a lot?

Why do sail shaped things get blown over in high winds? Lack of power?


When did I ever talk about static torque equalling power? I'm well aware it has to move! I never said otherwise. Why are you acting as if I did? I don't want a VAWT that stops all the wind, just one that intercepts most of it...

« Last Edit: June 20, 2005, 10:50:48 AM by jamesjones »

whatsnext

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Re: A wind gen as a static device
« Reply #11 on: June 20, 2005, 11:28:47 AM »
"I don't want a VAWT that stops all the wind, just one that intercepts most of it."


Pretty much the same thing and, I'm sorry, but I'm nowhere near intelligent enough to get into a conversation with you seeing as how your mind is already made up.

« Last Edit: June 20, 2005, 11:28:47 AM by whatsnext »

jimjjnn

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Re: A wind gen as a static device
« Reply #12 on: June 20, 2005, 11:56:21 AM »
I say to all, Try any idea that you have and then work out all the bugs. I lurk here on the board seeing all the great ideas and reading how you guys "hammer" out all the bugs and then somebody will try it and have problems and comes to the discussion board and informs all to what he found and everyone gets their heads together and finds "fixes" for the problems.

THIS IS A GREAT BOARD . Most of the fellas here do great and wondrous things.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2005, 11:56:21 AM by jimjjnn »

electrondady1

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Re: A wind gen as a static device
« Reply #13 on: June 20, 2005, 03:37:40 PM »
 you guys! you got more in common than you think, your both interested in windmill generators.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2005, 03:37:40 PM by electrondady1 »

finnsawyer

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Re: A wind gen as a static device
« Reply #14 on: June 23, 2005, 08:54:17 AM »
Think of an iceboat.  When the sail is operating in drag mode the speed is no more than the wind speed.  When it is operating with the sail in lift mode the speed may be a multiple of the wind speed.  Clearly, the boat is getting more power from the wind in the latter case since friction losses encountered by the boat from the skate's contact with the ice and wind resistance from the hull increase rapidly with the boat's speed.  The beauty of lift is that if you can increase the "apparent" wind seen by the sail the lift force increases.  Hence, reduce friction and wind losses and boat speed increases.  The sail is happy to oblige.  That's why they use skate runners instead of skis.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2005, 08:54:17 AM by finnsawyer »

hvirtane

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Re: A wind gen as a static device
« Reply #15 on: June 25, 2005, 12:02:04 PM »
jamesjones:


Where are the large scale

turbines that are

extracting close to

the Betz limit of energy

from the wind?


I agree. I don't think

that such machines exist.


On the other hand I don't think

that Betz theorem is even

completely valid.

I think that Gorlov is nearer

to the truth with his 'GGS theory'.


http://mystic.math.neu.edu/gorban/Gorlov2001.pdf

http://www.mos.org/cst/article/2806/1.html

http://www.recipeland.com/encyclopaedia/index.php/Wind_generator


- Hannu

« Last Edit: June 25, 2005, 12:02:04 PM by hvirtane »

electrondady1

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Re: A wind gen as a static device
« Reply #16 on: June 27, 2005, 05:56:18 AM »
thanks for the links hannu, did you not post drawings for a sort of  gorlov  turbine , is it complete?
« Last Edit: June 27, 2005, 05:56:18 AM by electrondady1 »

whatsnext

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Re: A wind gen as a static device
« Reply #17 on: June 27, 2005, 11:29:34 AM »
Also look at the mainsheat controls of an iceboat. They will show very clearly how much more power is being produced when the sails are lift mode.  

John.......
« Last Edit: June 27, 2005, 11:29:34 AM by whatsnext »

hvirtane

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Re: A wind gen as a static device
« Reply #18 on: June 27, 2005, 12:05:44 PM »
Hi,


I've been out of my country

quite a long time. I had no

time to start making it.


Maybe I will do now

something for it.


I think that using

metal tubes and short

airfoil sections wouldn't

be so hard job...





- Hannu

« Last Edit: June 27, 2005, 12:05:44 PM by hvirtane »

hvirtane

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Re: A wind gen as a static device
« Reply #19 on: June 30, 2005, 03:07:40 PM »
jamesjones:


Does anybody here agree with me that there is a difference between how much wind 'gets through' the swept area of a 2m HAWT versus a 200m HAWT, with the same Tip Speed Ratios?


You mean the situation

in the picture below:





- Hannu

« Last Edit: June 30, 2005, 03:07:40 PM by hvirtane »

RobD

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Re: A wind gen as a static device
« Reply #20 on: July 03, 2005, 08:34:06 AM »
I don't know about sailed based VAWTs but the Sandia patents on a DOE grant claimed over 35% efficieny. The small one I built was very favorable although no specific efficiency tests were done.

Ideally I think for us home builders running a Sandia Savonius with a large diameter alternator can have some interesting results. I'm working on one now and my thinking is that you have to model the alternator to the machine in the same fasion you have to with a HAWT. We'll see what happens. I'm not saying I don't like the HAWTs, I just don't think we should stop looking at other options.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2005, 08:34:06 AM by RobD »