Wind isn't the answer

[windy]

As long as there is oil overseas, the US will contining buying from them and nothing will change. I still think the US goverment is trying to buy all the oil it can from overseas, and suck the Arab states dry. After that, the US can then start sending oil overseas and then the Arab's will get a taste of their own medicine.

[ghurd]

It must be a file photo of my 4th of July shipment.  No worries about that one.

This time 95% is RE and LED related.

I did not ask what they do with the other 5%.

Wanna lose sleep?

http://shop.newsmax.com/shop/index.cfm?page=products&productid=165

[PeterAVT]

I'm with Tom on that. My city is fairly useless when it comes to public transportation, but some quick maths showed that I can walk to most things on a daily basis. The end result is much better health and lower blood pressure. My admittedly economy car is much more economical, using roughly 20 gallons per month (1.6 litres).

I do like the idea of renewable and more distributed energy and or storage though.

[CG]

Seeing as induction generates about 99% of the world's electricity, what happens when we run out of copper?

[richhagen]

Without a storage capacity, economically overall it is terrible once you get beyond a few percent here because you still have to build, maintain and staff the exact same number of nuke or fossil fuel plants as without any wind power because you can't count on any of the wind to be there at any given time.  Those capital costs are significant even if that plant is idle a larger percentage of the time.  Ideally you also still have to have enough over capacity in case one of those plants 'pops' off line or goes down for maintenance or repair too.  Also, I'm not sure that the atmosphere is effected by whether the CO2 in it came from a car or a power plant, just the aggregate amount dumped into it. :-)  I like wind power, but it will only grow beyond a few percent here when it is economically advantageous overall.  Rich

[Bobbyb]

Aluminum

[DamonHD]

Hi,

It's simply not true that you need non-wind backup for all wind plant AFAIK.  Not 100%, not 95%, maybe 90% on today's grid if you don't have a good geographic spread, less the bigger the geo-spread in general.

You can count on a certain percentage of wind power being available whenever you need it, ie as baseload, it's just a smaller fraction than with some other plant types.  (Right now the UK keeps something like 80GW capacity available for a winter peak of 62GW and intermittent renewables are currently a very small part of the mix.  So that's ~30% of conventional covering its own back!)

For example, you probably don't need much/any backup for wind that might not blow at night because the various other base-load sources such as nuclear/hydro/whatever will more than cover it anyway.

And in any case if things get tight then you can start to price users off the grid (Al smelters, Fe foundries, H2O desalination, cold stores) with extended versions of various demand-side management techniques already in use.  Lots of demand-callable Negawatts to make up for some missing Megawatts.  (I just wrote to the EU Commission to express my support for this with domestic appliances and computer equipment, for example.)

I'm flapping hands with the numbers here, and if you force me to I can find some references, but I believe that they are roughly right.

Rgds

Damon

[brkwind2]

Some day we will have to dig through all the stuff we've thrown away.

[veewee77]

ANWR is not a consideration for oil.  At best, there is only enough oil there for about a year's worth at current usage levels.

The answer is not to find more oil to burn, but to find ways to utilize less of what we have, and to utilize it more efficiently.

JMHO - YMMV

Doug

[veewee77]

Actually, charging electric cars at night, even a LOT of them, makes the power plants run more efficiently. At night, when usage is lower, the power plants have to "back-off" and then during the day, they "ramp-up". Plug those electric cars in and the ebb and flow doesn't happen, making the plants more efficient.

Doug

[Aule Mar]

When we can melt 100 tons of iron a day, with wind or solar power then we can realy start thinking about switiching all of our energy needs to RE sources.  Untill then we need to use what we already have available.  Nuclear is our best option.

For Fungus (above), That energy (of mining and processing) has already been expended, we have the Uranium right now.  no need to dig any more for at least for 300 years.

Once the plant has served its useful life 40-50 years the reactor building can be

entomed right there on the site.  the rest of the plant can be reused.

The materials that have been activated due to the reactor, have half lives in the

range of 25 years.  not that long to waite for them to cool off.

[tecker]

It's a good time for  companies that have money to spend for improvment to consider  where they lie in brown out conditions and take a run at self suficiancy. Processes can match up to wind and solar combination and become a essential extension of the proccess. Part of a base production schedual . Add in some green media and turn peak runs at night and base runs during the day . A hedge against rising transportation cost that are going to happen.

[tecker]

The cost for control is staggering and it's off the charts for an accident Any one of 100s of thausands of employees envolved with any portion of the process is a potiential threat . Before and after it's used to boil water. Think about it boiling water is as faar as we've come in 150 years that really embarassing to me .

[DamonHD]

Hi,

Even at current usage rates we only have <100y of U235 for current reactors as I understand it.  Less if we build more nuclear.  And not all of that is out of the ground yet.

But I'd be happy to be shown I'm wrong here.

Rgds

Damon

[TomW]

Aule:

You keep saying " Nuclear is our best option.".

OK, then. I propose we build one across the street from you since you have such unwaivering faith in the ability of the same people who let Katrina victims suffer [The Government] and dropped the ball on 911 when there were clear indications something was up to regulate the nuclear industry.

Don't get me started on who you can trust with your safety when money is involved [everything now days]

I think it may be a piece of the puzzle. I think the very best option is to stop using so much power. If half the morons in the country would just install switched power strips on phantom loads you might see a decrease in needs. Not to mention stop driving a 3 ton behemoth 15 miles in city traffic to get a pack of hotdog buns.

Use what you need but need what you use would go a long way to fixing problems with energy.

Your "option" simply prolongs the inevitable collapse due to centralized power generation. Talk about an easy target for terrorists, the power grid is just too big to protect and too important to ignore. Decentralization only makes sense from a security and reliability standpoint.

Just the view from here.

Of course, everyone is entitled to their opinion.

Tom

[DamonHD]

Oh, I don't know.  Water as a working fluid is great (non-toxic, abundant/cheap, high specific heats, etc, etc).  Not always the right choice, but often so.

It's great when we keep finding that fire and stone work well in some tasks rather a long time after we first stumbled over them.

Rgds

Damon

[DamonHD]

From the French grid operator:

    The second point is about wind's contribution to peak demand: despite wind's intermittency, wind farms reduce the need in thermal power plants to ensure the requisite level of supply security. One can speak of substituted capacity.

    The capacity substitution rate (ratio of thermal capacity replaced to installed wind capacity) is close to the average capacity factor of wind farms in winter (around 30%) for a small proportion of wind in the system (a few GW). It goes down as that proportion increases, but remains above 20% with around 15GW of wind power.

Rgds

Damon

[tecker]

To make steam that's all were making steam and condensing to water  . I like a water economy It's the" Wholly Grail " . Steam is not the answer . Water can be separated and fused in one step; massive release of heat and pressure differential that's perfect for existing equipment  . By or if you will Buy product pure water that doesn't have to be condensed .   It's a lot easier than handling Mercury traces  Carbon traces that are significant  and taking chances with ionizing radiation . Here's a garage door opener

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bs-Uk511S_I

[TomW]

Tecker;

That is curious. Wish he had detailed what he is doing. Sounds like arcing AC across a plug gap while flooding it.

Pretty dramatic at the least. Wonder what the electric side pulls for power in operation?

Thanks for the link.

Tom

[Off grid in Tonopah]

Sorry but I can't help myself.....

    The easiest way to deal with this is let the "market place" work. The energy source that's going to cost the least is the one that's going to be used. You can say "use less" but that's not going to happened as a lets all "join hands and save the planet" thing. It will happen as a function of price. Tax credits or subsidies mask the true cost of the energy produced and since the government is just printing useless paper and piling the debt on the back of our grandkids seems a pretty selfish way of continuing to live beyond our means. I personally wouldn't feel right "making, i.e. Tax" someone else to pay for my solar system. So I didn't take any rebates or credits for it.

    Most of the methods of RE energy production have the same problem "Storage". The way we live....and that's not going to change anytime soon...is we need base load generation. People want and demand all the gadgets of modern life. And they won't go back to third world standards without some serious bitching. The lights must work all the time or the peasants will storm the castle with pitch forks in hand, and the King isn't going to let that happen. Hydro or Geothermal are the only real base load RE energy at present, and we're tearing down dams so go figure. People want their cake and to eat it to. They have very little knowledge as to what it takes to make the lights come on when they flip the switch. "No Nucs...Tear down the dams...Wind farms are ugly and kill birds...Bio fuels use food crops...Don't drill there it will hurt the caribou....Coal make the planet hot....Whine whine whine. Let the price of keeping the house cool or the car on the road get high enough and they will turn up the thermostat or drive smaller cars or come up with a better way of powering them.

    If RE is ever going to be successful it needs to be able to compete in the market place with large base load generation, economy of scale and our energy use dictate this. Unfortunately until the storage issues get solved RE will only fill niche markets or as a supplement to the grid. So pick your poison for base load, but energy production is messy no matter were it comes from.    

 Personally I'm for rendering down baby seals for diesel. Bet you can get 150 mile out of one of those greasy little guys. Hey it's green and renewable. Got to fight Global Warming...    

Energy production, price and availability is a method of peasant control.

The more you can make of your own, the less chains you'll wear...

End Rant:

Boy I feel better now!!!

Bob

[tecker]

It's more electrostatic 120 dc (not sure of the current ) The cycle goes dielectric charge then dielectric breakdown ,separation ,momentary conduction , ignition ,plasma release fusion . He's flooding the plug . Looks like a sterling cycle separation plasma release and implosion the crack is the implosion the the vapor gets caught up in the next plasma release steam is a added dimension  .  Meyer used a ventury to burn hho and transfer heat without melting the metal around the burner.

[SparWeb]

A quick response to some previous comments about "charging electric cars overnight".

Wait a minute.  Most people I know come home at 5-6 o'clock.  I would expect most people to plug those electric cars in at 6 PM.  Then they turn all the lights on in the house and the furnace heat up and the stove on.

Sounds to me like electric cars make the evening peak power worse.  All those electric vehicles, that have done the 30 mile commute thing, will be done charging when 10PM rolls around.

To force an electric vehicle that is plugged in at 6PM to wait before starting to charge the batteries until, say midnight, means that the clock on the dashboard had  better be correct, or you might not get to work tomorrow morning!

[DamonHD]

I guess he's basically burning off the metal of the spark plug amongst other things, and it really depends on the current he's whacking in: is he just making an expensive and wet arc lamp?

Rgds

Damon

[DamonHD]

Oh, it's easier than that.

Either there will be some explicit control saying 'don't charge yet' from the power company (already exists for things like electric hot water heaters in South Africa and New Zealand, etc, etc) or each car just monitors the mains frequency and refrains from charging if it's below nominal.

The former is better but the latter would do in a pinch.

(You'd be able to override it but pay through the nose to do so...)

Oblig link: http://www.forbes.com/global/2008/0107/036.html

Rgds

Damon

[richhagen]

They may be able to get away with that more there because of the ability to shed loads when the supply is lowered.  I do not know if they are able to adjust frequency to have smart devices shed loads there, but they may.  We do not have that type of technology in place to any measurable degree here in the States that I am aware of.  Such an effort may have to be initiated here if intermittent power sources become an increasing part of our grid.  Rich

[tecker]

What your seeing is Dielectric break down like when you put 50 volts on a 16 volt electrolitic but in this case the dielectic is a liquid and a cavitaion is forced seperation of the water into it's gasses then the conduction a arc and resultant plasma results as the molucule is reformed . Here's an explaination from the man himself Mr meyer

 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJ3x5X9LxTA&NR=1

[spinningmagnets]

Hey Steven, There are some juristictions where you can get an electric vehicle charging station installed in your garage.

The benefit is that you are charged a lower rate to charge up your EV (if you push the "over-ride" button it will charge it up right now to get you going, but at the more expensive rate)

The drawback is that it has a timer so it only charges at the lower cost rate when demand is down, and the grid has excess capacity (late at night).

If you suddenly realize you have to go to the hospital or to the store to get Pepto-Bismol/Kaopectate after dinner, the EV battery will still be dead. Just a "heads up".

[tanner0441]

So what if...

Everyone had a back up battery and inverter at the point of entry into the home. when the fridge, washer, AC, pumped bathroom, or what ever starts up the inverter absorbes the peak load.  The batteries could also charge the electric car directly, these batteries whould have been gently charging overnight and through the day while there is no lighting load in the property.

In the event of a power out, or cut if your here in the UK, the battery capacity could be enough to run the lighting load for several hours.

I used to live in a very rural area of North Wales everytime the wind went above 20MPH off went the power, generaly it was only off for 3 hours or less most times it was minutes or seconds, as the auto reset circuits reset. I had a couple of small generators so I only produced enough power for my needs for the longer cuts.

I also had a 12 volt lighting supply we did not have street lights half way up a mountain so if the lights went out it was DARK.

It would bring the cost of batteries and decent sized pure sine wave inverters down in  price.

Just a thought.

[dnix71]

Wind would work fine if it's coupled with pumped storage. Wind/Hydro together. Instead of making electricity directly, pump water with the windmill. Then run the hydro when you need the peak. Keep using nuclear for baseline and to pump storage when the wind doesn't blow.

I worked for the TVA for a year in Chattanooga. Raccoon Mountain pumped storage works great for the morning/evening peaks that would otherwise have to be met by gas. They deliberately left Tennessee split in two time zones, too, to spread the peak

[powerbuoy]

One thing America could start with is building vehicles with more engine choices. If I buy a VW Golf in Germany, then I can buy it with a 50, 75, 95 or 120HP gazoline or a couple TDi engines to choose from. Over here, all I have is the ultra power turbo model. Every car, let it be a Focus, Neon or whatever has a minimum 100HP engine ... for what? For driving 65mph on an interstate? Give me a smart engine to choose from, lets say the 50HP version for my daily commute and I'll get the 50 mpg without being a hybrid. So much for gazoline waste.

For power: It's going to be nukes (hopefully fusion in a few years) and some renewables to add a healthy mix. Irregular sources like wind, solar, wave etc. are still great candidates for charging fleets of EVs.

[StorminN]

Don't forget that centralized generation... nuke, coal, NG, large hydro, etc. have been HEAVILY subsidized in the USA, so the newer tax breaks and incentives for solar are not even come close to leveling the playing field...

-Norm.

[Micheal]

there is no answer. There is only progress and regress. Progress is adding so much wind power that china will have to buy our extra. Then we can at least export something.

Seriously tho, graphs, charts, can all be made to say any dam thing you want. My chart reads as follows. "Oil/coal companies have America by the gotcha's ..... lets change that"

[DamonHD]

I actually very much want to do something like this.

I am working on it...  First I want to get enough PV up so that we'll be net generators year round (which I might achieve by the end of this year)...  Then I want to try to net out our usage (ie eliminate imports) at grid peak demand time.

In winter we will only generate a fraction of even our miserly daily consumption, but in summer we could easily neutralise our entire consumption, even at night, so that we never import at all and always export at some point during the day, maybe when grid frequency drops.

Rgds

Damon