It doesn't matter where hydrogen comes from!

[BoneHead]

Ok, I'll post it. But if it's gone in a day or two, e-mail me.

http://oupower.com/phpBB2/

The site claims to be searching out OU but out of the many projects they have documented, no one has even attempted an OU project... lol. They have everything from homemade foundry furnaces to electroliser units with photo documentation. Not as good as the documentation done by the Dan's, but pictures anyway. For the projects, you have to go to http://oupower.com/ . That page has the links to the projects. The other link is their forum where they discuss the stuff.

Some of the folks who frequent this site, also pop into that one once and a while.

Hope you find something to help.

[rotornuts]

I have to agree with you electrondaddy1. 90% at little to no cost is what it is and 10% of very little to no cost is nearly the same thing. If it works for you the efficiency doesn't really matter.

Too often folks get  hung up on conversion rates and efficiency. A system the supplies the required need operating at no cost but a 0.00002 % conversion rate is infinitely more valuable than one that runs at 99.9 % for more than you can afford.

Mike

[pyrocasto]

Yes I understand, but say you wanted to heat your house. Would it not be easier and more efficient to just use the windmill's electricity to heat water or air, instead of making hydrogen, which then will make heat? Just seems like a waste to me.

It is fun to play with though, I just wouldnt do anything with it for my house as making alot of hydrogen is not exactly fun to do. Lots of maintainance.

[electrondady1]

howdy mike , thanks.

pyro you may be absolutly right. i just don't want to discount the posible use of hydrogen. i feel i'm new to r.e. and still in the dark with a flash light. it's a bitter pill to swallow but i've come to the concluion i could never go off grid in my situation. i'd need at least four of danb's  17' big boys. and thats not gonna happen.i could probably put up 30 modest size vawts . it would be a local curiosity, but no emergency vehicles would show up, no hand cuffs involved. perhaps the output of a herd of vawts can be combined to be usefull.  i'm not that far along yet. i have built and bench tested about 10 little geni prototypes from junk. none of them would be much good at charging a battery  but every one of them was able to make hydrogen.!

shawn

[finnsawyer]

Well, I think the real point is to store the hydrogen.  And then when the wind isn't blowing use it for heat or running machinery.  Even in the winter the wind doesn't blow all the time.  At least here.  While storing hydrogen in a vehicle isn't practical today, there is no reason why it couldn't be stored at a fixed site.  Basically the hydrogen becomes an energy storage medium, which is all it is (as has been so often pointed out) in the so called "Hydrogen economy".  You don't even need to bring the stuff inside your house.  You can burn it outside the house and pipe the heat in.  People do that all the time around here burning wood.

[monte350c]

Interesting - especially some of the newer storage technology.

But it still takes rather a lot of hydrogen to power things.

For example, that 720 liter storage cylinder mentioned above.

From the same website, one of the power units they sell for $10,000 is rated at 1KW.

http://www.fuelcellstore.com/cgi-bin/fuelweb/view=Item/cat=31/product=869

It uses 15 standard liters of hydrogen per MINUTE when making 1KW.

So that 720 liter tank would last for 720 / 15 = 48 minutes.

In other words there's .8 KWH in that tank.

Ted.

[pyrocasto]

It is very possable. But for home powered stuff I use batteries when the wind is not blowing. Hydrogen though possable to replace batteries just adds extra effort, money, time, complications, and safety factors.

I personally wouldnt mind one of those tanks for making an electrci bike, but the price to storage and size ration is not worth it ATM for me either.

[rotornuts]

Perhaps I've missed something but storing the hydrogen in a bladder may work well. Put it well away from the house and if it leaks decommision it. Hydrogen is lighter than air of course so a leak shouldn't pose a serious problem if the storage bladder is monitored for abnormal volumn changes.

Mike

[benjamindees]

Sorry, I noticed that after I posted it.  I meant to say cube, not square.  So, 60 ft cube.  For a spherical balloon, that would be about 75 ft in diameter.

[nothing to lose]

Others mention you don't know Hydrogen, I won't. But clearly you don't know alcohol!

"It's also questionable whether ethanol and biodiesel can be profitably made without fossil fuel inputs.  They sure as hell can't be made with wind and solar power."

Just why can't they be made with wind or solar? If you knew how to make ethanol then you would know the only fuel needed is heat, and that can be any electric source INCLUDING wind or solar! Wood could be burned, or even for small supplies at a time the waste heat from the auto's engine perhaps as I am designing a test system for one of my trucks.

NO, I do not expect to make as much as I use, but the heat is there, so if I make 5 galons as I drive around burning up 10 gallons, then that five does not need a different heat source later using more fuel. Pretty sure it will work, but back to what works for sure!

Grow sugar and disolve into water, mix in yeast, maybe add a little fertalizer, wait 14-21 days, cook at 180F to steam off ethanol, condense ethanol into barrel, burn in gas engine.

Many ways to run equipment used for sugar production, perhaps ethanol

Cooking can be done with wind or solar or waste heat from anything else, perhaps an engine as I mentioned my truck. So what part would require any fossil fuels at all?

As for profitable?? Perhaps that's the entire problem right there, time for people to be self reliant perhaps. Most morons could make there own ethanol if someone showed them how. If money did not run this country we would not have to worry about moonshiners and no permits would be needed, people could make there own fuel for most of there use and fuel stations could serve those who can't make there own or just to lazy to do it. For long distance travel people would still be buying alcohol fuel from stations since you can only haul so much and it takes time to ferment. But for daily driving around town people could make there own cheaply, far cheaper than gasolene costs right now, $2.50gal here, maybe around $1 for alcohol I made.

Hydrogen would be better for alot of reasons, but alcohol works in todays cars, and many of yesterdays cars also.

If it were not for the permit I would be running alot more ethanol myself. I am not home here much and the wife does not know anything about things so I don't want the permit here and people I rent another house from refused to sign the permit application. I have "tested" my stuff though and it is great.

If not for the permit problem I would have 4 stills running at least.

[nothing to lose]

Not to argue with you, but Before my life fell apart around here I was playing with hydrogen too and posted some.

I did on a small scale run a lawnmower engine for awhile as a gennie and hydrogen as a fuel. So I think small scale like that it would be practical perhaps and well within the reach of intelligent people. Perhaps useing a dumpload as the power source to crack H2O, store in a bladder under water in a tank.

As for how I had made mine, that was around the time I was posting a bit on aluminum lye and water to creat Hydrogen. I was doing a small experiment for on demand use, but then I stopped doing much for awhile due to other problems in my life.

With winter comming soon I hope to start up alot of my projects again.

Part of the aluminum lye experiment was to see if I could get power also durring the process like a battery, but I never got that far to find out yet.

[nothing to lose]

" So you can just give up on the hopes of beating the price of gas.  That's not an option.  The options are 1) terrorism and oil wars or 2) paying more for energy.  Period.  "

I can beat the cost of gas right now and many other people do so also!

Gas costs $2.50 here right now, alcohol fuel I make myself costs far less, and that is buying sugar at the grocery store retail! Many ways to distill it, but using electric heat is the easiest probably and it still costs far less than gas!

"Perhaps its time to take that into our own hands as well."

I agree, so while you wait for Hydrongen to be feasible, work on it, but make yourself some cheap alcohol and beat the gas prices right now!

[ghurd]

There is a low power do-hicky for suppling fish with O2.

Its not an air pump.

It cracks H2O.

The O stays in the water in tiny bubbles not large enogh to break the surface.

The H bubbles break the surface, and Will Burn.

Makes a chlorine smell.

It kills fish.  Quick.

Regardless of the sales spew.

Don't use it for fish!

Larger fishing supply retailers sell the 6 and 12V devices.

Looks like speakers.

About $100 for the big one.

Many places no longer supply it, because it KILLS FISH.

I do believe it cracks H2O.

G-

[nothing to lose]

Sure there is.

The wind doesn't always blow, making hydrogen with as a dumpload and running a genie later would be better than buying 10 extra batteries to hold the dumpload just in case the wind don't blow for a few days.

If all the other problems get solved, whats to stop us from developing hot water tanks and home furnaces latter also that will safely burn hydrogen instead of propane.

 Maybe even a hydrogen cook stove and hydrogen yard lights.

Sure now we probably think all those things would be unsafe, but in the future we could have them also perhaps.

So as a dumpload I produce hydrogen, later I cook a roast with it

Maybe someday??

[nothing to lose]

You have a point, but you can only heat water so hot and air blows away.

Kinda need something to fall back on when the wind does stop for awhile I would think.

So if you got the power and a way to store it, great dumpload if you can use it.

[nothing to lose]

You may be on to something.

Since Hydrogen is lighter than air, storing it in a large bladder baloon ABOVE ground should be very safe. Anchor a gaint baloon securely to the ground, fill, let float over head, pipe hydrogen through tubing back to the ground to point of usage. Any leaks from ballon is above any source of ignition and leaks just float away to become water again someday.

No explosion/fire danger as long as the tubing does not leak at ground level.

Might not be too good for city folks, but maybe for rural areas. Farmers, industry etc..

[Bruce S]

Hello folks;

 Finally had enough time to sort through all the stuff on this.

I hope I can help with some of the techy side of H2.

Helped out with the H2 house here in St.L and taught it to my daughter for a school science project, so I have should enough knowledge to help out.

H2 is good stuff easy enough to make almost anywhere, but much much harder to store than everything except the pretty glow sticks that come from Nuclear plants and a whole lot easier to use.

A couple things about storing H2. As some one else said, it leaks through about everything.

Since Hydrogen is the smallest molecule known to man the storage container must be able to hold. This cancels just about everything except glass and polymer based plastics.

But wait is get better. Scientists have loved using hydrogen for decades!! Father-in-law has a PHD in chem. So what type of bladder would be best for storage? Weather balloons!! They are made of Neoprene and can handle the worst weather we'll ever see, plus there's so many made they are kinda cheap.

Using H2 is a little different. The problem of using H2 in say cooking or heating is that H2 like to play by itself. Meaning in order for the hydrogen to kept from burning at the outlet ports then ALL of the air ports on normal stoves, BBQ grills and NG based water heaters. There's also the need to make the orifices <-sp? even smaller than they already are OR make your own.

Most are really worried about storing hydrogen at high pressures. Not needed at this time. If you store the gas at a safe level and that pressure allows you to have twice as much as what's in a bladder then why waste energy going for higher pressures? Look at how low propane is stored? I would think that holding hydrogen at 250psi more than enough.

If your wanting to get away from using gasoline and are truly looking for a quick alternative then Hydrogen is not the way to go.

There are better routes to go while the hydrogen then matures.

I like NTL can make Alky all day long for a lot less than gas costs now plus if I want to go the H2 route Alky carries twice as much Hydrogen as water does, plus I can pour the Alky in any vehicle that's been built , this includes the Model T and most Formula 1 race engines.

As it has already been said here, there is already enough brain trust on this forum that no NEW science needs to be found. Merely a re-think of what it is to be used for and what you already have lying around.

 The garbo-gens comes to mind when thinking about what can be used.

Of those who wish to go further, the website homepower has some really good articles about doing just that. I believe that they even converted a BBQ grill from using propane to H2.

My bet and current slant due to living in a city that will not let me put up a wind generator, and for the near future is methane for home and Alky for my truck.

I can make both right now with out the need for fossil-based fuels. I can store it without too much trouble and if there come a time when I can purchase a pump that will allow me to store H2 around the 250psi level then I can crack the methane (which most large-scale plants are doing anyway) and I all set.

Don't get me wrong I'm all for H2 and will keep messing around with it a teaching people the truths about it, but for know I will keep it only as a small hobby.

Bruce S

[electrondady1]

 i think the way to eliminate the pump is to form the electrolitic cell in such a way that it can be operated at pressure . then it could be isolated from whatever storage system you use by a valve.  the interesting thing about electrolisis is the medically pure oxigen that is formed as a byproduct.

i think home made "truck fuel" is  gonna be on my to do list as well.inspite of the carbon dioxide biproduct

methane gas is very interesting and easy  as long as it doesn't smell to bad.

[benjamindees]

So what part would require any fossil fuels at all?

Fertilizer.  I guess I didn't mention that.  But, as I said, there's still considerable debate.

If you knew how to make ethanol then you would know the only fuel needed is heat, and that can be any electric source INCLUDING wind or solar!

Now you're the one who doesn't know ethanol.  The heat is not the fuel.  The corn is the fuel.  And the corn requires fertilizer.  And the fertilizer requires fuel.  And guess what that fuel is?

I agree with most of everything else you said.  I hope you guys have luck with your ethanol production.  But I'm afraid I tend to think you're not getting the yields you think you are.

Regardless, I've seen the numbers for serious worldwide ethanol production.  And I'm afraid I've come to the conclusion that corn should be for eating.  Arable land is a valuable commodity, too valuable to be tied up in energy production.  

This is a decision which could be with us for the next 100 years.  If we develop massive space-based collectors or mine methane from Titan or something, will we still want to run our cars on ethanol?  Of course not.

[nothing to lose]

Fertilizer does not come from fossil fuels it comes from decaying plants and cow butts

Lots of types I geuss, and perhaps some comes from fossil fuels or what nots, but composting kitchen scraps makes great fertilizer also, farmers plow under crop scraps all the time and it decomposses it fertilizes.

So really no fossil fuels are needed anywhere for alcohol fuel to be produced, they might be used but it could still be done just as well without them.

"Now you're the one who doesn't know ethanol. The heat is not the fuel. The corn is the fuel. And the corn requires fertilizer. And the fertilizer requires fuel. And guess what that fuel is?"

What I meant was fuel for cooking the mash/wort, so corn would not be the fuel I meant, the fuel would be what ever was making the heat to cook with like solar heat, coal, propane, oil, electric, etc... Corn would be what you were making the alcohol from for fuel in that case but not the fuel for cooking it.

Corn is probably far from the best thing to use for making alcohol fuels, always the first thing anyone says is "Corn this, Corn that", but many things can be used and probably many things are far better than corn. Corn is expensive, harder to break down, less sugars, etc...

"This is a decision which could be with us for the next 100 years. If we develop massive space-based collectors or mine methane from Titan or something, will we still want to run our cars on ethanol? Of course not."

Well, will my 74 beetle, 78 F150, 84 & 85 T-birds, etc... run on the other fuels, they will run on ethanol. And it's not a decision which could be with us for the next 100 years as our only choice. I could easily buy or make ethanol for the vehicles of today AND buy other fuel for the cars of 10 years from now also if we use something else by then. Hydrogen might be a great nearly perfect fuel someday, but if the old classic and new cars of today won't run on it then we still need something these will run on. Just like some people drive electrics or deisels, not everyone in the world has to use the exact same thing.

"Arable land is a valuable commodity, too valuable to be tied up in energy production."

Same way I feel about golf courses and tennis courts and cemetaries, waste of valuable land that could be growing crops that would be consuming lots of CO2, cleaning the air,  and feeding people

Plant more sugar cane and do less golfing, better for the evironment

And use the T105 batteries on a wind gennie instead of a golf cart too, hee hee..

 Alcohol fuel may not be the best most perfect choice for the next 100 or so years, but it is something we can use right now, make ourselfs, run todays vehicles on, etc... so it may well be the best choice for today while we continue developing other options. If everyone in the USA went out and ran 50% alcohol/50% gasolene in their gas powered cars in 2-3 weeks, what would that do for cutting fossil fuel consumtion??

 That IS something that could be done right now! No-one I know could run Hydrogen in their cars next week or next month, but if they wanted to and made the effort nearly everyone could have a barrel of wort ready to distill in 2-3 weeks.

 Of course if everyone just suddenly did that it would create shortages and other problems since the market would not be geared for those kind of sales for the items needed. But the point is it can be done, is not hard, and available today, cheaper than gasolene also, and most cars run on it fine.

"I hope you guys have luck with your ethanol production. But I'm afraid I tend to think you're not getting the yields you think you are."

Thanks. I will be watching closely to see what I get if my new still works well in the next few days. 20gallon tank, I expect around 15gallons fuel per run if I fill it, I may only run 15gallons wort leaving some room for expansion etc.. but I have 30 gallon barrels and expect near 20-24 gallons of fuel from those. Since I don't have a hydrometer at the moment I won't know the left over sugar content from the wort/slew when I drain the still, that sugar will be useable in the next barrel to be fermented.

 I have experimented with hydrogen and have several plans to use it myself later also, but for now alcohol works for me, Hydrogen does not, yet.

[ghurd]

"will my 74 beetle.."

The rubber between the carb and intakes WILL melt with 15% ethanol.

It happened to my '73 and '74 Beetles!

G-

[nothing to lose]

Thanks Ghurd.

Ya, alot of stuff from the 70's and older could have natural rubber parts that alcohol might eat up. For most vehicles though the parts can be replaced with Neoprene rubber I think it is, alcohol won't eat it. So in some cases rebuilding a carb or new fuel pump may be needed for older vehicles, replace rubber fuel lines too maybe. The cars should run fine though. When you get into classics like the 60's or 50's etc... most the stuff alcohol will eat up probably will need replacing anyway or already has been replaced.

 Not certain, but I think even a Model T would run fine on alky, wish I had one to test on

Bet your beetles ran great till they melted though. I was thinking alky running a bit cooler would be good in my 74 beetle since it is air cooled. I may never get to try it though, was offered cash and small gas gennie for it, not sure if I will sell it or not. Too bad it was not a diesel genny, then he would have had a bug probably