Author Topic: It doesn't matter where hydrogen comes from!  (Read 757 times)

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benjamindees

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It doesn't matter where hydrogen comes from!
« on: October 15, 2005, 03:36:47 AM »
I've read one too many articles pondering what might be the automotive fuel of the future.  Admittedly, they've gotten better over the last few years.  They no longer speculate about hydrogen exploding like the Hindenberg.  They no longer tout cars that "run on water".  They no longer cite prices for hydrogen from scientific suppliers at $30/kg.


But one thing they all do, still, is compare hydrogen as it is produced today to hydrogen as it will be produced in the future.  The last article I read (aaugh!) went so far as to claim "we don't know" how hydrogen will be produced in the future.  WTF????


I can think of about five different ways to produce hydrogen right now, in my back yard.  The problem isn't how to produce it.  The problem is there's no way to use it!  And that's only a problem because there are still idiots writing articles wondering what the fuel of the future might be.


The article also spent a good deal of time explaining that hydrogen is today produced from natural gas, leaving carbon behind.  Yeah well I don't care!  Everything from my toothpaste to my computer is made from fossil fuels today.  But, the fact is, some day those fuels will run out.  And while my toothpaste and even plastics can be made without fossil fuels, gasoline can't!  It's also questionable whether ethanol and biodiesel can be profitably made without fossil fuel inputs.  They sure as hell can't be made with wind and solar power.


But, seriously, doubting the usefulness of hydrogen based on how it is produced is like doubting the usefulness of electricity because it's produced from coal.  It doesn't matter!  The benefit of a standard delivery method like electricity is, if we decide we don't like coal for some reason, we can outlaw coal tomorrow and the entire country won't have to buy a new toaster oven.  If we decide we don't like hydrogen made from natural gas, we can outlaw it in 20 years and nobody will have to buy a new car, or build a new jet plane.


There's another benefit of a standard delivery system like electricity or hydrogen as well.  Over the years, the cost of electricity has remained remarkably steady, even as the cost of most fossil fuels has soared and the power plants themselves have changed dramatically.  Appliances have also gotten more and more efficient.  Manufacturers can afford to invest in improvements because they know electricity will still be around in 30 years.


Good luck getting a US auto manufacturer to invest today in gasoline engine efficiency improvements.  They'll never pay off.  And even better luck getting an investment in any of the many possible "fuels of the future" to pay off until we actually know what that fuel might be.  Here's a hint:  it's hydrogen.

« Last Edit: October 15, 2005, 03:36:47 AM by (unknown) »

benjamindees

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Deleting posts...
« Reply #1 on: October 14, 2005, 09:55:25 PM »
You know, nobody really buys the "your post accidentally got deleted" crap anymore.  This is the second article I've had deleted that had to do with hydrogen.  It's really quite rude.


From reading past stories, I know many of the visitors here don't understand how hydrogen works, and some of the admins are against it for some reason.  Is it any wonder, when any article mentioning hydrogen is summarily deleted?  But I'll continue posting information on hydrogen, if only to educate you.


This story is 1) on-topic for a RE site, 2) posted in the rants section, and 3) not pertaining to over-unity.  If this story offends the admins here for some reason, could you make a policy or something so that people don't waste their time in the future writing on-topic posts just to have them deleted?

« Last Edit: October 14, 2005, 09:55:25 PM by benjamindees »

Nando

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Re: It doesn't matter where hydrogen comes from!
« Reply #2 on: October 14, 2005, 09:59:36 PM »
Short comment:


It is VERY CLEAR that you do not know how to make HYDROGEN with enough efficiency.


You make think five ways how to make Hydrogen BUT they are worthless if the cost of the Hydrogen production is higher than the cost of gasoline with the same energy value.


One thing for sure, there are companies around the world trying to develop a process that can produce Hydrogen at a price less than the price of gasoline and it is not the lack of equipment is the lack of technology cracking H2O into H and O, economically.


Nando

« Last Edit: October 14, 2005, 09:59:36 PM by Nando »

wdyasq

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obvious
« Reply #3 on: October 14, 2005, 10:00:24 PM »
it is clear to me you don't understand hydrogen


Ron

« Last Edit: October 14, 2005, 10:00:24 PM by wdyasq »
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pwr

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Re: It doesn't matter where hydrogen comes from!
« Reply #4 on: October 14, 2005, 10:31:09 PM »
If I understand the issue, electricity can be gnerated locally from renewable or non-renewable resources, or it can be delivered long distance over wires, having been generated by renewable or non-renewable resources.  Hydrogen can be generated locally by first generating electricity, or it can be delivered long distance by pipelines or motorized vehicles, having been generated by renewable or non-renewable resources.


Anyone who can connect logical dots should be able to see that hydrogen and hype both start with the letter H.

« Last Edit: October 14, 2005, 10:31:09 PM by pwr »

DanB

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Re: It doesn't matter where hydrogen comes from!
« Reply #5 on: October 14, 2005, 11:13:50 PM »
I think, while we can all make hydrogen fairly easily... it's basicly an inefficient process, hard to store and hard to use.  Perhaps if nuclear (or... nuculer as some would say) reactors were withing our abilities as individuals - it would seem more practical.  I think there's a reason you don't see it being used much.  I think the problems it poses are way beyond our abilities (as homebrewers without labs and multi million dollar grants) and perhaps it should be left to more qualified folks.  On this board it comes up fairly often and it usually (actually - I think always) turns into an argument of some type.  Perhaps we'll discuss it more here if somebody actually comes up with a serious project or something.  For now I think its 'pie in the sky' and we try to keep the focus of this forum on reasonably workable ideas and fun projects.


I expect someday that Hydrogen might be used on a large scale, but I think it'll be a while.  On this forum the topic has been beaten into the ground in my opinion.

« Last Edit: October 14, 2005, 11:13:50 PM by DanB »
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MaxFlow

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Re: It doesn't matter where hydrogen comes from!
« Reply #6 on: October 15, 2005, 06:49:00 AM »
Two thoughts to consider on gas efficiency and nuclear.

Someone did a study recently where they took american made vehicles to Europe and ran them against the same vehicles that we ship over there, a strange thing came about, although they were supposed to be manufactured the same, the  american vehicles had much poorer mpg than theirs, go figure.

On the subject of nuclear being efficient, there is nothing further than the truth, considering they don't carry insurance, the taxpayers are responsible for cost if theres an accident, and the whole cost of disposing of the waste material is totolly subsidised by the American citizen, if the nuclear industry had to pay for these two things, it would show that they are loseing money continually.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2005, 06:49:00 AM by MaxFlow »

BoneHead

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Re: It doesn't matter where hydrogen comes from!
« Reply #7 on: October 15, 2005, 06:54:00 AM »
I'm doing a homebrew hydrogen project. I posted some questions about a small magnet/ small wire alt a few weeks ago. That's what it's for, electrolysis. I'll post the project on this forum when there's something more to show other than 10 little coils in a zip lock baggie... waiting on more wire to move forward.


There are a lot of sites out there with folks trying to use hydroxy (the unseparated hydrogen/oxygen gas). It's dangerous as hell and you have to use it as you make it without funds for storage, but it can be done. There are also several people who frequent these forums who are applying the information that you guys are so helpful with, for making hydroxy and hydrogen.


There's a lot of extremely intellegent people on this forum. If there was a group that co-operated, a good, affordable system for use could be found within 4 or 5 months.


People use fossil fuels because they were brought up on it and the whole civilized world geared itself to use it. In order to change the gearing, someone actually needs to help create the usable applications and not spew garbage about how we should be, could be, would be using hydrogen... blah, blah, blah... post solutions, not rants!!!


My hat is off to the otherpower guys and those on this forum who actually tried to do something with their ideas and not sit around around complaining about gasoline and big oil profits. Congratulations to you all.

« Last Edit: October 15, 2005, 06:54:00 AM by BoneHead »

Treehouse

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Re: It doesn't matter where hydrogen comes from!
« Reply #8 on: October 15, 2005, 07:38:13 AM »
The problem with Hydogen is, it's exothermic meaning when hydogen and oxygen combine to form water energy is released. So to seperate the two, the same amont of energy must be used. If you could get 100% eff. in doing so you would have the same amount of energy in the hydrogen & oxygen. eg. 100W into spliting water @ 100% eff. you would have 100w's worth of hydrogen & oxygen. Your beter off using the 100w to charg a batt and making a EV.


Energy cannot be created nor destroyed only transformed.

« Last Edit: October 15, 2005, 07:38:13 AM by Treehouse »

electrondady1

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Re: It doesn't matter where hydrogen comes from!
« Reply #9 on: October 15, 2005, 07:55:18 AM »
i think the best way a person could make use of hydrogen right now, is if you had a co-generation system setup in place. i have seen experiments done were even small amounts of hydrogen were introduced into the air intake of an ic engine.


. the gas improved the combustion /reduced emisions by improving the flame front inside the combustion chamber.

 you could do that like right now!

 i think even bio diesel systems could benifit.


 the question is to what extent the oxigen could be used . its obvious that it would greatly enhanse combustion .but there could be problems with exaust gas temperatures, or preignition.


  i don't think i would feel comfortable using a mixed gas. i think you asking for trouble .

« Last Edit: October 15, 2005, 07:55:18 AM by electrondady1 »

electrondady1

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Re: It doesn't matter where hydrogen comes from!
« Reply #10 on: October 15, 2005, 08:15:28 AM »
to my shame, my little vawt spends most of it time noodeling around at 15 rpm producing unusable voltages. its that low grade current i'm interested in making use of.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2005, 08:15:28 AM by electrondady1 »

benjamindees

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Re: obvious
« Reply #11 on: October 15, 2005, 08:24:45 AM »
You don't know hydrogen like I know hydrogen, Ron!


/eat your vitamins

« Last Edit: October 15, 2005, 08:24:45 AM by benjamindees »

DanG

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Re: It doesn't matter where hydrogen comes from!
« Reply #12 on: October 15, 2005, 08:33:59 AM »
Eliminating alot of generating & all transmission line losses sounds reasonable to me; Using fuel cells would be increasing the available KWh's from the same non-renewable energy sources that are burning away 24/7/365 anyway.


Now how and what it is distributed as, and for what use remains to be seen. Also, it sounds like a clever way to keep city people in the city.

« Last Edit: October 15, 2005, 08:33:59 AM by DanG »

finnsawyer

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Re: It doesn't matter where hydrogen comes from!
« Reply #13 on: October 15, 2005, 09:29:07 AM »
I read recently that the bladders that sea kelp make to keep them upright are filled with hydrogen.  If that's true that leads to the possibility of some genetic engineering to produce a bacteria that produces hydrogen rather than methane.  I guess dropping off the carbon atom would be useful.  I'm still skeptical about the hydrogen economy, though.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2005, 09:29:07 AM by finnsawyer »

benjamindees

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Re: It doesn't matter where hydrogen comes from!
« Reply #14 on: October 15, 2005, 10:31:06 AM »
I'm going to respond to most of the issues brought up in this one post.  I see a lot of repeating the same old things that everybody should know by now regarding hydrogen.


Hydrogen is an energy carrier, not an energy source.  Everybody knows this.  No one (who knows what they're talking about) has ever said otherwise.  I made a point to compare hydrogen with electricity above, because that's what it's most comparable to.  Everyone knows that electrons don't exist freely in nature.  Everyone knows that we don't "mine" electrons.  Yet everyone uses electricity.  Same concept.


Now, why is hydrogen a preferred energy carrier?  It is the least common denominator in a variety of hydrocarbon fuels.  It's relatively easy to obtain, from the fuels we already use.  It is also relatively easy to obtain from renewable resources, as pointed out, by generating electricity first, or by generating heat along with electricity, using solar heat for instance.  Standardizing on hydrogen is like standardizing on something like ethernet.  For dumb terminals, using serial cables might be faster.  For compute clusters, customized hardware might be faster.  But, as a standard, ethernet is good enough to be used by everyone.


Hydrogen is also fairly simple to use.  You can simply burn it.  You can use it in internal combustion engines.  In the future, fuel cells may become affordable enough to convert hydrogen directly to electricity at high efficiencies.  I know many of you aren't holding your breath for that to happen.  But it might.


After carbon, which is undesirable as it forms either poisonous or greenhouse gas on combustion (carbon monoxide/dioxide), and electrons, hydrogen is the most abundant energy carrier on earth and by far the most abundant in the universe.


While electrons are a wonderful energy carrier, hydrogen is the best portable energy carrier.  "Storing" electrons, in batteries, is about as easy as storing hydrogen, but hydrogen tanks weigh less than batteries, and will take you farther.  It's true that compressing hydrogen introduces losses, but those losses are made up for by the increased energy density of the fuel.  That's why the space shuttle doesn't run on batteries.  Storing hydrogen on-site is easier even than storing electricity.  Bags to store hydrogen can absorb any excess electrical capacity with minimal investment, as opposed to batteries which can only be economically sized to less than the maximum capacity of a RE source.


There are also two issues at hand when it comes to choosing an economical "fuel of the future".  One is "creating it economically, energy-wise".  And the second is "creating it economically, money-wise".  Although these concepts usually overlap, they are not the same thing.


"Creating it economically, energy-wise" refers to the ability to convert low level energy carrier into high level energy carrier without using more high level energy in the process.  Many studies have implicated ethanol and biodiesel as dependent on high level energy sources, such as gasoline, to be created "economically, money-wise".  They may not be able to be produced "economically, energy-wise".  This is because the crops used to produce them are heavily dependent on fertilizers, which are made from oil products.  If we have to use 1 gallon of gasoline to make 1 gallon of ethanol, there's little reason to do so.  Ethanol has a lower energy density than gasoline.  Going from, say, electricity to hydrogen, on the other hand, is going the opposite direction.  It's converting a low density carrier to a higher density carrier.  There may be reason to do so, for easier storage or portability.  Like I said, the feasibility of ethanol and biodiesel is an open question, but it's something to think about for those of us without corn or soybean fields.


Now, that having been said, it should be clear that nothing will ever beat the price of gasoline, except possibly fusion.  But I'm not counting on it.  Fossil fuels are as cheap as they will ever be.  No one will find a way of producing hydrogen, or any other portable fuel for that matter, more cheaply than gasoline.  Gas will hit $4/gallon (in the US) and we will still use it, because it is by far the cheapest portable energy source.  Hydrogen is not here to rescue us from rising energy costs.  The most hydrogen can promise is to help maintain some semblance of the wasteful days we enjoyed in the past.  So you can just give up on the hopes of beating the price of gas.  That's not an option.  The options are 1) terrorism and oil wars or 2) paying more for energy.  Period.  


And we all know which option our industrialists and political leaders will choose.  If we want to avoid option #1, we need to take matters into our own hands as many of you already are doing.  Hydrogen is not magic, no more than is electricity.  Some would claim that making your own windmills also requires "multimillion dollar labs".  We all know that isn't true.  Creating and using hydrogen requires no more equipment than what many of us already have.  Those of us who accept the idea of a "hydrogen economy" have been waiting for it to materialize for some time.  Perhaps its time to take that into our own hands as well.


As for specific ways to produce hydrogen, I agree with the poster who mentioned co-gen, but for a slightly different reason.  This rant was partly motivated by my looking at a co-gen system and realizing I'd have to make 10x as much electricity as I actually need to make it worthwhile.  What would I do with all that electricity?  How would I store it?  I also notice that many of you have windmills running 24/7 that might possibly be producing more electricity than your batteries can store.  Hydrogen production makes a great dump load.  It only requires 2 volts.


But I'm looking around and noticing that the only thing missing seems to be a great way to use that hydrogen.  I also agree with whomever said there are a lot of smart people on here who can come up with anything they put their minds to.  I'm just hoping some of you will give hydrogen some thought.

« Last Edit: October 15, 2005, 10:31:06 AM by benjamindees »

nanotech

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Re: It doesn't matter where hydrogen comes from!
« Reply #15 on: October 15, 2005, 02:22:15 PM »
I think the biggest obstacle most people have with using hydrogen is the storage of it.


Steel 55 gallon drums leak like they're not even there, same thing with plastic.  Even the "silver foil" plastic that helium balloons are made of is only semi-permeable to hydrogen.  It seems storing it is temporary and inefficient.


But alas, most people have not heard of metal hydride canisters.  They chemically bond the hydrogen to the catalyst and can store the hydrogen almost indefinately.  Quite often at higher densities than storing the gas as a compressed liquid.


I mean, look at this link:

http://www.fuelcellstore.com/cgi-bin/fuelweb/view=Item/cat=5/product=132


The canister is 4.4 inches in diameter and 9.9 inches in length and only weighs 12.6 pounds.  And yet it holds 720 litres of hydrogen gas.  SEVEN HUNDRED AND TWENTY!!  That's somewhere around 190 gallons!!


So, someone with a little more technical knowledge than me please figure out how many watts of energy could be produced by 720 litres of hydrogen and then figure how many watts of energy could be kept in a battery that only weighs twelve and a half pounds!!  Even a lithium ion battery would be hard pressed to attain that kind energy density I think.


And when you start figuring the volume of a gas tank in a pickup truck, then fill that volume with those canisters, then figure the energy density of that volume of stored hydrogen, I think you get VERY close to the same energy density carrying capacity of gasoline at that point.


And when you consider that using renewable energy sources to produce the hydrogen in the first place, I can see where the initial investment in the canisters could be quickly recovered!!

« Last Edit: October 15, 2005, 02:22:15 PM by nanotech »

Nando

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Re: It doesn't matter where hydrogen comes from!
« Reply #16 on: October 15, 2005, 05:10:48 PM »
The STANDARD miss-conception of Hydrogen being an energy CARRIER, instead of an energy source.


REASON:It TAKES more energy to produce a determined Hydrogen energy level.


HYDROGEN will stop being a CARRIER when the technology is able to produce HYDROGEN with high efficiency, THE SAME WAY THAT THE HYDROCARBON Fuels are processed, they are producers because it takes much less energy to process a determined energy level.


The moment the industry can produce Hydrogen, let's say, with an efficiency of 180 % the production will "shoot sky high" and will replace the hydrocarbon fuels in a short time, because HYDROGEN becomes a PRODUCER.


Storage will take a reasonable time to develop once the Hydrogen is a producer.


The rest is just HYPE by many.


I have been working with Hydrogen for more than 30 years --periodically --.


Nando

« Last Edit: October 15, 2005, 05:10:48 PM by Nando »

BoneHead

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Re: It doesn't matter where hydrogen comes from!
« Reply #17 on: October 15, 2005, 07:33:47 PM »
That's what I'm sayin'. I got three things here, low wind speeds, small mags and small wire. Without making multiple alts or multiple rotor and stator assymblies, I'll never have enough juice to charge a battery bank. I may as well use the electricity that I can generate on electrolysis since I'm so bent on building these things.


Since yours doesn't have wind speeds good enough for charging 100% of the time, I don't blame you for wanting to use the 9v, 10v...etc... for electrolysis. May as well use it for something. Drop me a line at chad underscore beth at msn dot come and I'll give you a link to a site where folks are building their own electrolisers w/ pics of designs.

« Last Edit: October 15, 2005, 07:33:47 PM by BoneHead »

Goose

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Re: It doesn't matter where hydrogen comes from!
« Reply #18 on: October 15, 2005, 08:33:38 PM »
benjamindees,


Why don't you start a webpage and show us all the projects you are doing with hydrogen?  I would be very interested!


Thanks

« Last Edit: October 15, 2005, 08:33:38 PM by Goose »

electrondady1

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Re: It doesn't matter where hydrogen comes from!
« Reply #19 on: October 15, 2005, 10:57:34 PM »
just post it and i'll give it a try!

the cell design is a seperate challenge for shure . i have some drawings as well.

 one interesting aspect of electrolysis is that the process gives off heat as a biproduct.perhaps thats  reclaimable as well.


 ive got good wind here  it comes in low off lake huron but i need to go up about forty feet to get above the houses that stand between my place and the lake shore(1/2klm.).

 i really feel i've got to let the neighbourhood get used to the idea before i go with a big instalation.  i kind of like the idea of lots of little mills ,it won't scare anybody.

multiple stators work but my next effort will be single stator wide dia.lots of coils lots of poles.

 before i start to make a lot of hydrogen i need  a place to burn it . some of the guys here seem to be using single cylinder diesels , but ive got four buildings to heat.  guess i need a four cylinder.


as far as hydrogen usage goes, would'nt it make sence to just start using it as best we can and learn as we go. i mean, horses were probably more practical when automobiles got started.  

« Last Edit: October 15, 2005, 10:57:34 PM by electrondady1 »

pyrocasto

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Re: It doesn't matter where hydrogen comes from!
« Reply #20 on: October 16, 2005, 11:28:06 AM »
"Hydrogen stores 2.7 watt hours per STP liter and 39,000 watt hours per kilogram.

Gasoline stores 9000 watt hours per liter and 13,000 watt hours per kilogram."


So that thing stors 1944kw hrs of hydrogen.

A small car's gas tank could carry 340,650kw hrs of gas.


So unless that thing's 1/175th of the size of a gas tank it will not be smaller in size to output ratio.

« Last Edit: October 16, 2005, 11:28:06 AM by pyrocasto »

pyrocasto

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Re: It doesn't matter where hydrogen comes from!
« Reply #21 on: October 16, 2005, 11:29:23 AM »
BTW, the hydrogen gas tanks to the amount of a car would also weigh 2100lbs. ;-)
« Last Edit: October 16, 2005, 11:29:23 AM by pyrocasto »

DanG

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Re: It doesn't matter where hydrogen comes from!
« Reply #22 on: October 16, 2005, 11:31:46 AM »
Trying to better understand Hydrogen got me doing some calculations and hopping across many web pages....

------

"Under Standard Laboratory Conditions (S.L.C.) of 25oC (298K) and 101.3kPa (1 atm), 1 mole of liquid water has a volume of 18mL and will undergo electrolysis to produce 2 moles of hydrogen gas with a volume of 48.94L and 1 mole of oxygen gas with a volume of 24.47L"


  1. L / 48.94L = 14.71 moles hydrogen gas
  2. 71 / 2 x 18mL = 132.40mL = 4.48 equivalent ounces water in canister.


Hydrogen theoretically converts at 83% in fuel cell; so 1 mole Hydrogen equals 285.8 kilojoules x .83 = 237.1 kJ/mol electrical potential plus 48.7 kJ/mol heat output


so, 14.71 x 237.1 = 3487.741 kilojoules equals...


a] 968.82 watthours

b] 3,307.95 Btus (4024.33 if 716.4 btu lost in fuelcell added)

c] 833.59 kilocalories

-----

The canisters specs; 720 liters Dimensions 4.4 inches in diameter x 9.9 inches long

Weight is 12.6 lbs.


Lithium ion batteries have a Specific energy density of 150 to 200 W·h/kg


The canister linked has a density of about 170 W·h/kg


------



  1. H2O -> 2H2 + O2, Δ G = +118 kcal.
  2. H2 + O2 -> 2H2O, Δ G = -118 kcal.


-----


(My maths probably off somewhere, lazy Sunday morning interupted by chemistry)


reference pages:

http://tinyurl.com/nckz (bond energy)

http://tinyurl.com/3yrq3 (electrolyisis)

http://tinyurl.com/c9tko (lithium info)

« Last Edit: October 16, 2005, 11:31:46 AM by DanG »

DanG

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Re: It doesn't matter where hydrogen comes from!
« Reply #23 on: October 16, 2005, 11:35:16 AM »
yup  it was off - 48.94L is expressing TWO moles volume of hydrogen..


29.42 moles hydrogen in canister so double the results...

« Last Edit: October 16, 2005, 11:35:16 AM by DanG »

nanotech

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Re: It doesn't matter where hydrogen comes from!
« Reply #24 on: October 16, 2005, 05:19:41 PM »
2.7 watt hours per litre?


I'm scratching my head at that one.  Is there a decimal mistake there?  I was under the impression that hydrogen used in an internal combustion engine was somewhere around 70% output of gasoline.....


Sure that number isn't supposed to be 2.7 KILOwatt hours?

« Last Edit: October 16, 2005, 05:19:41 PM by nanotech »

electrondady1

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Re: It doesn't matter where hydrogen comes from!
« Reply #25 on: October 16, 2005, 07:40:10 PM »
 it doesn't really matter about the metal hydrides . i first heard about them 25 years ago. it was supposed to be the next wonderfull thing  and nothing has happened .it doesent really matter about all the numbers you guys are throwing around.


i've figured out this much, the wind is free and hydrogen burns.


 i need to know how much hydrogen i can feed a  bio diesel before i need to modify it. and how much oxigen before i burn a valve or make a hole in a piston.

« Last Edit: October 16, 2005, 07:40:10 PM by electrondady1 »

elvin1949

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Re: It doesn't matter where hydrogen comes from!
« Reply #26 on: October 16, 2005, 08:01:48 PM »
I have a quick question.

What would happen if you mixed hydrogen with wood-gas,or methane before burning.

later

elvin
« Last Edit: October 16, 2005, 08:01:48 PM by elvin1949 »

pyrocasto

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Re: It doesn't matter where hydrogen comes from!
« Reply #27 on: October 16, 2005, 08:18:12 PM »
If you are not going to use it for transportation then what is the point of making it? There is none. ;)


Problem is numbers do matter.

« Last Edit: October 16, 2005, 08:18:12 PM by pyrocasto »

electrondady1

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Re: It doesn't matter where hydrogen comes from!
« Reply #28 on: October 16, 2005, 08:50:15 PM »
 were already burning hydrogen . every fuel you can mention uses hydrogen with varying amounts of carbon. from dried cow dung to rocket fuel.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2005, 08:50:15 PM by electrondady1 »

pyrocasto

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Re: It doesn't matter where hydrogen comes from!
« Reply #29 on: October 17, 2005, 12:25:12 AM »
What I mean is why go to the extra trouble of electrolosis and such to make it, if you're not trying to use it for cooking or transportation? Making it for the house would just be inefficient.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2005, 12:25:12 AM by pyrocasto »

electrondady1

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Re: It doesn't matter where hydrogen comes from!
« Reply #30 on: October 17, 2005, 09:14:33 AM »
chris if your talking in terms of "the hydrogen economy" or "the fuel of the future" then at this stage h2 might not be practical.it's comercial production,nonviable.


but i'm only interested in my personel economy and fuels of the present.it's not that i lack vision or am anti scocial. it's just, in a month it will be -5c  a month after that -10c,then -20c . and the wind will be howling around my house like a demon.

 even at present day prices over the course of the next ten years i will have given the oil companies and local hydro company enough to buy my property !

thats my incentive.


 

« Last Edit: October 17, 2005, 09:14:33 AM by electrondady1 »

benjamindees

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Re: It doesn't matter where hydrogen comes from!
« Reply #31 on: October 17, 2005, 02:01:59 PM »
No, that figure is correct.  It's between 2.7 and 3.3 watt-hours per liter.  That's at standard temperature and pressure, as a gas.  


The figures commonly cited are for liquid hydrogen.  As a liquid, the common claim is that 1 kg of hydrogen, approximately four gallons, is equivalent to 1 gallon of gasoline.  Other technologies can store hydrogen at a density higher than as a liquid, such as this, which is equivalent to about 2.5 gallons hydrogen per gallon of gasoline:  http://hardware.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/09/07/1215256&tid=232


Some calculations I've done, just based on hydrogen gas:  A balloon 20 ft square will provide approx. 500 kWh of storage (one month of electricity for me).  A balloon 60 ft square will provide 4500 watts (heating required for my house) for 5 months.


Compressed and liquid storage is more commonly used, however.  Ford and other auto manufacturers use graphite/aluminum tanks from this company for instance: http://www.dynetek.com

« Last Edit: October 17, 2005, 02:01:59 PM by benjamindees »

electrondady1

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Re: It doesn't matter where hydrogen comes from!
« Reply #32 on: October 17, 2005, 06:59:33 PM »
so thats a round baloon 60' in dia.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2005, 06:59:33 PM by electrondady1 »