Author Topic: Disk-Style, Vertical Axis Wind Turbine 44% efficient?  (Read 804 times)

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rotornuts

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Re: Disk-Style, Turbine 44% efficient? No respect
« Reply #33 on: June 05, 2005, 10:05:23 PM »
As the engineers work on finding a solution to utilizing the wind power available in the windspeed zones just below those that the commercial machines, dominated by the hawt's, operate in I think you may start to see more vawt's come to the surface.


The vawt's in a simple format without mechanical controls to manipulate blade angle are indeed simpler to construct because they can utilize a constant airfoil at a constant pitch supported at both ends with no furling system an no overspeed or yaw control needed(dependant on design). I think there's a place for each. In a clear open area with constant class 5-6 winds with a steady wind direction and smooth flow an hawt is the clear choice. In areas where the prevailing wind direction is unpredictable, the winds may be turbulent or lots of wind sheer may be present all due to possible obstructions nearby, rolling hills or dirty convection currents rolling off the "hills" in the morning and back again at night the vawt may start to show it's worth. Little serious researh has been done on vawt's other than the savinous or the darrieus because there is little wrong with the hawt's but it does't mean there's no place for them or they don't work. The future of the vawt will likely belong to manipulation of the air pressure around the entire machine rather than the downwind side using savy airfoil and hub configurations that remain static in there mechanical orientation but present themselves differently to the wind on the upwind and downwind side(as they allready do but to an advantage rather than a disadvantage). thinking about the global airflow around the vawt with a high solidity and it presents some interesting possibilities. I may soon come to realize there is an impossibility involvolved that I can't recognize yet but till then I keep looking at it.


BTW, I untill recently thought the same as you about vawt's then I moved from the country to in the city and my hawt models sucked. They perfomed very poorly in an urban environment so I built a small vawt model and I'm hooked. In the urban environment the vawt is a clearly superior choice in my mind.


All that said I'd like to see the vawt's come out of the woodwork and the research work to start again in earnest but I would also ask that no one to treat rediculous claims with kid gloves as that's the stuff that gives a concept a bad name.


Hammer away at what you see if you'd like but carefull not to throw the baby out with the bathwater.


Mike

« Last Edit: June 05, 2005, 10:05:23 PM by rotornuts »

huntband

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Vertical Axis Wind Turbine
« Reply #34 on: June 06, 2005, 07:18:15 PM »
I have never been involved in an Internet discussion before so I find this mildly interesting. I have worked almost daily with my wind turbine design for several years now and have a deeper understanding of the device that is difficult to attain from your vantage point I realize. Nearly all of the problems cited in your discussion were realized and resolved long ago. For example, the hydraulic ram pumps that control the shutters have a center by-pass area that allows the fluid to flow from one side of the piston to the other side without restriction to movement of the piston and the piston only generates resistance by pumping pressurized hydraulic fluid and stops the rotation of the shutters at each end of the cylinder to prevent impact on becoming fully open or fully closed against the stops. The energy harnessed would have been dissipated as an impact to the stops and would not have otherwise benefited the power output of the unit. I have turned this potential negative impact into a positive pumping force that adds output power - hence no noise or impact and greater output power.


The rotatable shutters apply no force against the central disk (the force accelerates the shutter as it rotates on its axis) until the shutters are fully open and reach stops that transfer the winds force and the kinetic energy of motion of the shutter to the disk that is thereby transferred to the output shaft. Further as previously cited, a very minimal force is required to produce movement of the shutters, which creates almost no resistance to the wind because of the balanced mass of the shutter pairs that you can move with your finger tips. The winds force merely accelerates the shutters in either the opening or closing directions depending on the direction of the wind during rotation, without applying any force to the disk that is connected to the output shaft. The kinetic energy gained via the accelerated mass of the shutters is harnessed by the hydraulic pumps. It is relatively simple, works very well, and harnessing the kinetic energy of the accelerated shutters via the hydraulic pumps adds a lot of power to the overall output over and above the direct force of the wind against the shutters when they are fully open catching the wind. This is a process unique to my wind turbine.


Yes the wind turbine operates at very low wind speeds. My test unit is set up directly beside a conventional horizontal axis wind turbine for comparison and the VAWT operates nearly all the time and the HAWT only runs intermittently. Although we know there is simply very little power within low wind speeds. At least you can efficiently harness the power that is there.


Another aspect of the design that it appears most of you are missing is that my vertical axis wind turbine also produces significant positive sideways lift effect that provides a motive force in the direction of its rotation. You may be aware of recent studies that show lift is more an effect of Newton's third law of an equal and opposite reaction instead of Bernoulli's law as older science believed which is evident when you see an airplane flying upside down. The wind deflected downward by the upward angle of the airfoil produces an equal and opposite upward force against the wings that provides a lift effect; otherwise, the airplane would drop like a rock from the Bernoulli effect pushing downward on the wings instead of up as the surfaces of the wings are reversed in upside down flight. In upside down flight, the Bernoulli Effect's downward push must be overcome by the lift provided by the Newtonian effect, thus the angle of attack (in order to attain more Newtonian effect lift) must be increased to overcome the negative Bernoulli effect in order to maintain upside down flight.


In this same manner the shutters open up vertically and are at a slight angle to the wind as they begin rotating into the wind and produce a sideways lift effect pushing the shutter in the direction of rotation. The shutters then rotate more directly into the wind and drag becomes the main force with an almost perfect ninety degree vector angle as the shutter rotates to a ninety degree angle to the direction of the wind. As the shutters continue to rotate beyond the ninety degree vector angle position, the angle of the open shutters into the wind again produces lift as the vector angle narrows again to a sideways lift effect pushing the shutter in the direction of rotation until it closes to repeat the process.


My design and vector angle analysis of the various angles of the shutters during rotation of the vertical axis wind turbine represent a fundamentally new approach to generating wind power. We will soon have validation of the output power via a major university study that will be conducted in Baltimore, Maryland later this year.


The wind turbine will be coupled to a hydro-turbine (rotated in reverse to become a hydro-propeller) on a catamaran that will make the trip from its place of construction on the Mississippi Gulf Coast to Baltimore, Maryland (where we are establishing our manufacturing base) via wind power. When on site the unit will be anchored and the wind turbine and hydro-turbine will be decoupled. Each unit will produce power independently (the hydro-turbine will produce power from tidal movement) and the wind turbine will generate wind power for demonstration of the Power Catamaran in the Baltimore Harbor. The resulting output power of both the wind turbine and hydro-turbine will be certified be independent third parties from a major university. I know the output power of the VAWT but am under agreement not to release our test data until independently verified.


Bob Hunt

Inventor

« Last Edit: June 06, 2005, 07:18:15 PM by huntband »

electrondady1

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Re: Vertical Axis Wind Turbine
« Reply #35 on: June 06, 2005, 07:43:38 PM »
 wow bob ! your more than just a pretty face. i hope you make a ton of dough on your design, don't be like tesla and diesel.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2005, 07:43:38 PM by electrondady1 »

aogden

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Getting personal
« Reply #36 on: June 06, 2005, 11:57:48 PM »
John,

I do not have an association with Bob or any vested interest in his work, I contacted him once by phone after my initial posting in the hope of getting his direct comments posted here. If you are insinuating that I'm "dishonest" you are way off base.  What I have seen in several postings here are personal attacks which I believe is counterproductive. I think Bob deserves a fair shake, that's all!
« Last Edit: June 06, 2005, 11:57:48 PM by aogden »

aogden

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Re: Truth
« Reply #37 on: June 07, 2005, 12:12:22 AM »
Ron,

I'm interested in anything that makes efficient power with low average wind speed, I searched I and found nothing on the Cory Jib Windmill. Can you provide a link?

Respectully, Adrian
« Last Edit: June 07, 2005, 12:12:22 AM by aogden »

kitno455

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Re: Vertical Axis Wind Turbine
« Reply #38 on: June 07, 2005, 07:32:01 AM »
ok bob, so the last what, maybe 2 or 3 degrees of rotation of your moving flaps is resisted by your hydraulic ram/pump system? the remainder of the motion flows thru a bypass valve (with slight heating)? do you do this at both ends of the motion, and in both directions?


if there is as much counter balance as you say on your flaps, they will have little momentum as they close, and the wind will be providing very little force at that point, cause they are already almost closed, so i STILL doubt that amount of force is overcoming the high losses of a hydraulic system. i would like to see some comparisons without the hydro pump, and just a rubber bumper instead....


also, your supposition that your device uses the Coanda effect to produce overall motion seems bogus. you see, in order for the Coanda effect to function, it must act upon a body that is rigidly attached to your base plate. instead, you have this action on your hinged flaps. this may help you to more quickly open and close the flaps, but until the flaps are against the stops, the Coanda effect has little use. by the time you are against the stops, you are in full drag mode.


oh, and before you try to tell me that force is a vector, and some component of the Coanda applies to the hing side as well as the free side, i will quote your last posting:


"The rotatable shutters apply no force against the central disk (the force accelerates the shutter as it rotates on its axis) until the shutters are fully open and reach stops that transfer the winds force and the kinetic energy of motion of the shutter to the disk that is thereby transferred to the output shaft."


sorry bob, i hope i am missing something and your device changes the world, but i am afraid you are wasting someones money....


allan

« Last Edit: June 07, 2005, 07:32:01 AM by kitno455 »

whatsnext

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Re: Vertical Axis Wind Turbine
« Reply #39 on: June 07, 2005, 09:20:19 AM »
I'm really getting tired of this so I will avoid any discussion of Newton's Third Law. Instead I suggest you Google this guy and Hunt Aviation. Bob's a big hit with Crankdot.

http://www.crank.net/gravity.html


Enjoy, John........

« Last Edit: June 07, 2005, 09:20:19 AM by whatsnext »

whatsnext

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Re: Vertical Axis Wind Turbine
« Reply #40 on: June 07, 2005, 10:42:55 AM »
Bob, How is your Hydrogen Thermolysis ReactorTM coming along? Interesting, at least to me, that you would burn water to get power and, guess what, water. You're an amazing guy!

John.........
« Last Edit: June 07, 2005, 10:42:55 AM by whatsnext »

whatsnext

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Re: Vertical Axis Wind Turbine
« Reply #41 on: June 07, 2005, 11:08:24 AM »
This is a very interesting piece from Bon himself.

http://www.fuellessflight.com/techno/tech.htm

Allen, You're going to love this.

John........
« Last Edit: June 07, 2005, 11:08:24 AM by whatsnext »

whatsnext

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Re: Vertical Axis Wind Turbine
« Reply #42 on: June 07, 2005, 11:17:15 AM »
Adrian, Sorry about saying anything that you might have found offensive and thank you very very much for bringing Bob into the fold. The last couple of hours have been, almost, orgasmicly entertaining.

John...........
« Last Edit: June 07, 2005, 11:17:15 AM by whatsnext »

kitno455

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Re: Vertical Axis Wind Turbine
« Reply #43 on: June 07, 2005, 11:38:26 AM »
wtf. ok let me see:


we have a 1000 ft tall heat pipe, hot at bottom, cool at top, heated gas will rise up into colder parts of pipe, but not condense until after it has passed thru a turbine? nah. that turbine is sitting in a low pressure area, because the gas has already condensed, and rained back down thru the tube.


hmm, 5 degree difference pushing a gas (which is right at its boiling point) thru a thousand feet of pipe, and no condensation? damn good insulation would not be enough. have to externally temperature control the pipe. probably use all the power the thing makes just to keep the pipe hot :)


allan

« Last Edit: June 07, 2005, 11:38:26 AM by kitno455 »