Author Topic: Chock one up to ethanol! (Read 430 times)

ignesandros · « **on:** September 15, 2005, 05:55:01 AM »

GM's new sub-compact (insert name here if you know it) will burn any combination of gasoline and ethanol via sensor. The horsepower rating for pure 87 octane gasoline will be 105HP. For pure 180 proof ethanol, it will produce 109 HP. You could almost run your air conditioner on that additional 4HP, couldn't you?

(heard it on History Channel's Modern Marvels: Sugar)

-Andrew

TLSea · « **Reply #1 on:** September 15, 2005, 12:35:33 AM »

Filling up today I saw a small sign on the corner of the pump that said: Product dispensed here may contain 10% ethanol.

Here is a story on flex-fuel cars http://www.detnews.com/2004/autosinsider/0408/29/e03-254552.htm

Hmmmm how big of a still would I need for 30 gallons of gogo juice a week?

pyrocasto · « **Reply #2 on:** September 15, 2005, 01:32:09 AM »

I've got a flex fuel Ford, I've just got to get the ethanol...

DanG · « **Reply #3 on:** September 15, 2005, 08:04:25 AM »

They may brag about horsepower ratings but to get more HP out of alcohol then petroleum takes a huge increase in fuel volume being used. Ethanol increases octance rating - some midwest states have their mid-range (89) octane fuels blended w/ ethanol so regular octane (87) ends up being 5-10¢ more expensive then the 89 octance.

180 proof is nowhere near pure since its 90% alcohol and 10% water, since it's not for human consumption refineries can make pure 99.5% alcohol much easier and "proof" does not apply.

Here in Minnesota all fuel is minimum 10% ethanol which usually yields about 15mpg highway milage for me, buying non-ethanol out of state boosts milage 15-20% (18mpg) for me. We have E85 fuel here, 15% petroleum - 85% ethanol which sells at 50¢ or more discount then 10% ethanol fuel. I've yet to hear what milage people get from it but most of the Gov't vehicles here are E85 capable...

kitno455 · « **Reply #4 on:** September 15, 2005, 08:13:57 AM »

nearly the entire nation of brazil runs on methanol. look it up.

allan

kitno455 · « **Reply #5 on:** September 15, 2005, 08:14:57 AM »

oops- i meant ethanol. they grow tons of sugar cane and refine it locally. reduces foreign oil, and decreases transport costs.

allan

Phil Timmons · « **Reply #6 on:** September 15, 2005, 11:48:23 AM »

Have been pondering running Flex Fuel Vehicles on homebrew alcohol, too . . .

details here >>>

http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2005/8/27/23114/0590

Right now I am sort of stuck on finding a suitable manufactuered FFV, or a conversion, or just building one up from scrap.

Bruce S · « **Reply #7 on:** September 15, 2005, 02:38:17 PM »

Andrew

It's probably the new HHR. they are trying to take sales away from Chrysler's PT-Crusier. The Monte Carlo is going FFV as well.

And I love producing my own fuel. My old carb'd truck runs and passes the emissions tests just fine running on what I would call E60. E85 pumps around St. Luois are too far for me to save any money. Lots of converts around here when gas shot up .10 everyday for a week until it was up over $3.19/gal.

There alot of chatter on the blogs about ethanol ( mostly wrong) about using Alky-pumped up gas.

Bruce S

Bruce S · « **Reply #8 on:** September 15, 2005, 03:04:20 PM »

99y;

The pumped up HP mostly comes from the engine running cooler due to Alky's ability to stay cool under higher pressure than gas. The extra fuel increase isn't really that bad. Depending on your engine's compression ratio, it may be happier running a high blend of Alky. This comes from Alky's anti-knock abilities due to a higher octane rating than "regular" gas and it's cleaning abilities ( this BTW was it's down fall in the early years of using it in carburated engines, it cleaned the deposits off too well).

I kinda pay close attention to the mileage of my truck, and I can say that I actually get better mileage using the E60 blend. This may be due in a large part toit's age '91 and it's miles ( 143,000+) and that I won't pay to put mid-grade in it like the manual says to.

I had the chance to check these figures, since I burnt up my still's heater and was all but out of Alky. Using 87 octane and pinging/knocking up hills I got 17 average. This was averaged at what the mileage was while the fuel gauge was setting on walk and putting Phillips ( they were closest) regular in at 2.99/gal. Tank holds 15gals OUCH!!

I then drove like I normally due, except that I did slow down on the city roads going up hill as the engine pinged alot.

Once that was down back at the walk level I put 5 gals of regular in the tankd and poured the last of my 160 proof Alky in ( 5 gal) then drove on it. No more ping (yea) I drove the truck until it was again back on walk, then parked the truck. I need front brakes, did the calcs. and came up with a respectfull 19 .

I know there are all kinds of strict tests that show the mileage using Alky goes down, but mine improved and that's good.

My truck isn't much more than the old 91 straight 6 automatic with a camper shell on it. Do all the normal maintence work myself.

Hope this helps.

Bruce S

Bruce S · « **Reply #9 on:** September 15, 2005, 03:14:45 PM »

hey Phil;

You know I can't keep away from this coversation.

One I can actually lend knowledge to.

Depending on your vehicle you could start weening your vehicle on to higher level of Alky. Unless it's 2000 or newer I wouldn't jump right into using E85 without having a handfull of fuel filters and know where they're all located.

In one of the discussions someone put up a link to a UK site that has a real good setup showing one pretty dran close to what I have, just smaller scale.

Give it a try if you're looking into a home-built type.

There is another way. Awhile back, in Mother E. I think, someone explained how to make Alky injection into the air intake by using an aftermarket windshield pump, small resouvior and some tubing. This of course was for carb'd engines but even if you have injectors and timing circuit could be built to squirt the Alky right into the air.

If you make the Alky, the least it will do is clean out the water from your fuel tank cheaper than buying the 1/2 pint petroleum based stuff.

Bruce S

Bruce S · « **Reply #10 on:** September 15, 2005, 03:48:10 PM »

You are absolutley correct ( including the ethanol fix).

Even Ethiopia is thinking of using the molsasses that they consider a throw away for using a fuel. They did their own internal studies and they concluded they could make it for .50/gal and at the same time stop the black-market making of alcohol.

Just think what the advanced world could do if we made use of the waste products from making cane sugar and raw sugar from beets?

GM & Ford have been making the cars for Brazil ethanol ready for about the past 10 years, so the parts supply is there.

Bruce S

georgeodjungle · « **Reply #11 on:** September 15, 2005, 04:51:56 PM »

only one lil bad thing,

it eats rubber after a wile.

that's an cheep and easy fix for them older cars.

o.k.o.k.

one other, hp goes up long jevety goes down.

other then that, it sounds good.

kitno455 · « **Reply #12 on:** September 15, 2005, 05:23:58 PM »

alky does not have the lubricating properties of the regular gas. watch out if you use it on anything with slide-valve carburettors, like your favorite british bike or jaguar , you may find the throttle stuck open one day

allan

Phil Timmons · « **Reply #13 on:** September 15, 2005, 08:40:12 PM »

Oh sure, and I enjoy your info. Thanks, Bruce.

Called the local Chevy house, today.

They have a 2005, 1/2 ton work truck package sitting on the lot -- E85 -- ready to go. About $20,000 + sales tax, after rebates, discounts, and whatever other pricing mathemagic they do.

Actually cheaper than a non-E85 as it turns out. They had some other E85 trucks, too, but totally lacking any real knowledge about what they are selling. So they did not know if E100 would be any sort of warranty violation or not. Told me to check Chevy.com . . . oookkkaaayyy. Really wish these folks had SOME idea about what they are selling.

My shopping fantasy is a 3/4 ton, fairly new type, that is listed to run on E0 to E100 -- no home-rebuilt kludges -- not that it would be that difficult, but this is for business use on customer and government sites, with serious commercial insurance coverage and nothing "weird" is desired/tolerated.

But I am thinking about a pre-1974 scrap rebuild (gets around any EPA modification restrictions) from the ground up. That would cost about $3000 to $4000, and take about a month.

Bruce S · « **Reply #14 on:** September 16, 2005, 07:59:22 AM »

Wow Phil;

You are serious about this one.

There is a lady in our office from Honduros<-sp? They use high-blend Alky as well. I'll ask her if there is someone in her country who could answer your questions.

Found out , that most of them now are made to learn American English and have been for the past 10 years. It was a mandate in from their government.

I'll let you know.

If you go looking, try to find one that is pre-1970. In 1970 all the manufacturers started going with smog control addons. Makes taking emission tests harder.

I wouldn't mind upgrading to the newer Chevy, but just can't see putting out the cash for one.

With a 143,000+ miles the body on the 91 Ford is starting to show it's age. People at work call it the 50 buck truck:-))

Bruce S

To answer a few of the other comments.

It used to be true about Alky that in the older carbs a straight Alky would eat away the internal rubber groments and seals. Which is one of the reasons the Gov. set the USA blaned at E85. This way there's enough petrol in the tank to keep things well lubed.

Kitno455: Wish I could own one of those side-draft babies. Rode a BWM 90 back in the day, and used to work on the side draft webber's. They used alot of rubber in them for seals. The newer rebuild kits use neopreen<-sp? instead and this isn't affected like rubber.

My E60 blend keeps with the idea of making sure the internal parts are lubed.

Cheers!

Bruce S

Phil Timmons · « **Reply #15 on:** September 16, 2005, 05:30:13 PM »

Got some comments back from the Chevy.com site (I will leave to your imagination what my question #4 was).

my take -- Trucks is cheap -- sort of -- $23,500 + TTL is what I paid for my current Ford 1995 4WD, new, 10 years ago, and it is just a standard cab.

=========

Thank you for your inquiry. I will attempt to answer your questions.

We have no ¾ ton FFV vehicles nor could I locate any.
The option L59 - Vortec 5300 V8 Flex Fuel Engine carries no extra charge.
Chevrolets recommendation is for E85, I can find no recommendation for E100.
There would be no way that I would know of the competency of the other dealers in our area regarding the FFV engines.

I have located a Silverado 1500 4WD extended cab work truck with the flex fuel engine. The MSRP on the truck is $ 31,577.00 and the GM Employee discount price is $ 26,856.06. Rebates on the 2005 extended cab are $ 3,000.00. This would make the net sale price $ 23,856.06 plus tax, title, and license fees. If I can help you with the purchase of this truck, please give me a call.

XXXXXXXX

XXXXXX Chevrolet

972-XXXXXX

ignesandros · « **Reply #16 on:** September 17, 2005, 01:22:37 AM »

georgeodjungle,

I'm no mechanic, but from what I've read and heard, it would make sense for longevity to go up. Alcohol is nearly 400ºF cooler at the exhaust head. I've even heard suggestion that some engines could entirely replace their current cooling fan with a more fuel economic electric fan and in some cases even have the radiator be passively fed air. Though I'm skeptical, that's an impressive prospect.

-Andrew

electrondady1 · « **Reply #17 on:** September 17, 2005, 09:06:58 AM »

this is a very timely thread.thanks for the links . i paid $1.09 per litre yesterday and $1.34 per litre last week here in ontario. home brewed fuel is starting to look like a very good idea. Canada supplies approx. 20% of the usa oil imports.there is no need for troops, the industry is controled by int. oil conglomerates. we have little control over it.

ignesandros · « **Reply #18 on:** September 18, 2005, 04:06:49 AM »

Yeah! Down with OPEC! I miss the good ol' days of the Texas oil rush. You could pump out all the petrol and charge a nickel a barrel and still make money. GREED makes fuel expensive. In the country of Baharain (Middle East) every man, woman, and child born there get over $1 Mill a year in "mineral wealth dispersal". Compare that to nearly $10 K in Alaska.

-Andrew

nothing to lose · « **Reply #19 on:** September 22, 2005, 12:04:01 PM »

Small, not very large

"30 gallons of gogo juice a week"

Hmmm, 6 gal a day taking Sunday off?

Phil Timmons · « **Reply #20 on:** September 27, 2005, 09:00:27 AM »

Well, I thought maybe I should "Think Cheap," too.

Started looking at older vehicles on E-bay, etc.

You can get some choice old gas-guzzlers CHEAP.

3/4 ton and 1 ton trucks that are re-trimmed for a couple of thousand $.

Vista Cruisers (land yacht station wagons) for a $1000 or less. Mrs. Phil would love that. She like retro. But she started looking at old late '50s Nomad Chey Station Wagons, too. Those are too much for my Bank of Phil's Wallet.

Anyway, I am thinking -- put a couple thousand or less into FFV'ing them, and you have a top of line rum-runner for cheap, cheap, AND no gasoline. Saves thousands a year in that alone, and who cares if running E100 (totally alcohol) violates any non-existant warranty, like you might for a new FFV?

I am looking at (I think) alcohol costs (all costs, including recovery of equipment costs, labor, MARR (minimually acceptable rate of return), etc.) of under a $1.00 gallon. And that looks like worse case pricing. Start brewing from trash instead of cash crops and gets really cheap. So who cares what the mileage is?

But those costs assume I get into some serious volume -- I guess 10,000 gallons per year is the first regulation threshold. If things jump beyond that, I am thinking about "time sharing" the ownership of the Solar Boiler/Still. I think we can route around the regs by doing that. Dunno for sure, yet. But I am used to killing targets by studying them to death.

One of the kids working with me, has been watching over my shoulder on this. He wants to FFV a 1971 Impala. It is always best to start with corrupting the youth.

And on a whole other note, I have another ex-Army friend -- Cobra mechanic -- who is opening his own auto mechanic shop. He says he will do FFV conversions on the side if we want.

So does anyone know how highway taxes on homebrew works?

Bruce S · « **Reply #21 on:** September 28, 2005, 11:41:46 AM »

Phil;

If you don't mind reminding me where are you located? I'd like to be around the FFV cobra mechanic. And help all I can to get this still up and running. I have about 160 hours vacation hours saved for this year alone so a trip would not be too much of a problem.

The kid with the 71 Impala, was size/kind carb does he have? He can get a lot better performance from the V8 if he takes the heads and has them planed correctly down to no more than .010 off. This will up his compression ( which should already be around the 8.5 - 10 range) if he takes them any further he'll need to stay with racing fuel or pay for premeium. I had a 70 Impala that had a Quadra-puke on it. Sucked gas like crazy; but rejeted the thing for pure Alky and o-boy did it run. Did low 10s at the raceway.

Your mechanic should be able to rejet the carb pretty easy. The old Mother-Earth New mags had sizing charts I think.

I am in the market for an old pre 75 Chevy Impala station wagon myself. Saw a 70s one running on bottled gas once, blew my doors off. Had nothing more than a de-stroked 327 and planed heads to take advantage of the higher compression the bottled gas could handle. This is nothing new though, old farmers have been telling me this for years, seems the higher compression gives back about 10 - 15% losses from the lower energy available when switching from gasoline. Will be the same for Alky too. My 81 is sitting with a 8.5 compression and hates it when I have to break down and use 87 Octane

Not sure about the MARR though. You'll need to make sure the trash stuff is a constant supply or you'll need to recalibrate for higher costs.

Not sure about the road tax since I don't have a commercial truck.

I would also check with your ATF people and see about getting an exempt license. My license allow me 200 gals per year for consumption and 1000 for road use. This is for sure way below what you are getting to. I'm doing some re-checking of my ocst now due to higher sugar costs.

Do you have any sketch's of the plan in mind for the solar still part yet? I would think a multi-stage unit in an "S" fashion would be a good place to start. Maybe go with a 6" column for end run if you're out to get beyond the 160P - 180P stuff.

Did you see the input from NTL? his burn test was soo clear he almost had a problem with lighting up the other stuff.

I'll fire up my brian and the old turbo-cad and put some pics together.

Cheers!!

Bruce S

electrondady1 · « **Reply #22 on:** September 28, 2005, 04:12:22 PM »

bruce s i have become very much interested in your "truck fuel".

i have tried waideing through your post back in august but its very long and back and forth with ntl .

i'm primarily interested in using starch products as a base, as i understand there is a glut of potatoes. do you have knowledge of an enzime required to convert the starch to sugar? i think this is a process that must take place before the yeast is added

Phil Timmons · « **Reply #23 on:** September 28, 2005, 10:32:13 PM »

Hey Bruce.

Dallas area is my generally stomping ground, but I hop all over the country on Federal projects.

Have one coming up near you, shortly -- about 100 miles East of St. Louis. So we need to do a recon on that one. And I need to stop by one we did a couple of years ago in St. Louis at the Arch, to do warranty checks . . . so anyway, I figure we will be in your area in a week or two.

When I know our travel dates I will get hold of you and if it is handy, catch you on the way up or down. We have a lot of flexibilty in our travel dates. We can visit all you like then, if you want.

my direct email is: philiptimmons@yahoo.com, if you would like to contact me direct.

If you recall, our whole still project is just a sub-component of a rather large Solar Boiler/Generator rig. We are still collecting surplus mirrors on that. The first step looks like it will be in 100 square foot modules to build up to 400 square foot mobile units, and then a 3000 square foot (commercial roof) mirror system.

And yeah, I tend to do plans on paper as many as ten times before a single bolt or nut gets turned, so paper and design discussions are VERY welcome.

Yunno, I had an old 1971 Chevy Impala wagon in High School. Shades of "That 70's Show," huh? Took it across the scales myself (scrap yard), guess I can regret that now. Got $50 for it.

Actually my knowledge on good design of the still portion itself has some holes to fill in. Just all the surplus heat from the boiler(s) make it so attractive.

Bruce S · « **Reply #24 on:** September 29, 2005, 11:32:16 AM »

I probaly start a new diary for this stuff, there's a lot of wading through stuff on the old one.

I'll get some better pics of my setups and start a new one. Gas is creeping back up to $3./gal and the E85 people are too far for me to go just for a tank.

There are a couple, should be able to google for this and find one online AB shut there's down years ago. I used to get mine from AB's yeast department.

I do remember that I put the potatos through a meat grinder first to get them to be small clumps though. Also there about 2 extra steps when using potatos, which is the cooking phase and enzyme cooking phase to get the starch to break down to a complex sugar mole( dextrose I think).

After that it's the standard fermentation processing.

Hope this helps!

Cheers

Bruce S

Bruce S · « **Reply #25 on:** September 29, 2005, 01:00:48 PM »

If your doing Federal projects I won't ask what you do.

If your up close drop me a line and I'll meet up with you.

I have done a little design on using the mirror setups on an old C-band satl. but nothing lately. It worked too well and I din't have a full grasp of what to do with all the heat at the time, wish I'd had ceramics back then.

I had forgotten about the large project you where designing for. Will make my little 5 gal unit look a bit puny.

Who is it on the forum that is great at solar cooking? we could use thier knowledge too.

Let me know when you're sure I'm due to travel back the Brussels in the coming months to check on the phone lines coming into thre for possible add-ons.

Cheers!

Bruce S

Phil Timmons · « **Reply #26 on:** October 03, 2005, 10:02:31 PM »

Hey Bruce,

Looks like we are heading out of Texas on the 5th (of October -- Wednesday). We are pretty flexible on times, and routes. We try to make a point of enjoying our road trips.

I should make a point of catching the dam site in Illinois (Shelbyville) either the 6th, 7th, or 11th -- when their engineers are likely to be there. The 10th is a Federal Holiday, and the folks we need to visit with there at the site, are not likely to be around on the weekend.

So we can catch St. Louis on the way up, or back down, or both ways. We will wind up in Michigan for a couple of days in the middle of that, too. Probably on the weekend, itself.

So we can visit with you about anytime through there.

If you want to catch me on my cell: 817-683-8045, or my office voice mail: 817-689-7573.

And hey if there are any other RE types here on the board that would like to show off their toys, along our route, or just be social, give me a yell and we will visit.

See y'all.

philiptimmons@yahoo.com

ghurd · « **Reply #27 on:** October 04, 2005, 12:35:32 AM »

That 22 mile-ish stretch of bridges along RT10 (E/W) is 'out'.

Still a hell of a mess anywhere near the coast.

Might want to plan around it.

AAA might help?

Have a blast!

G-

Bruce S · « **Reply #28 on:** October 04, 2005, 07:18:00 AM »

Phil;

Cool; I'll give you a call once it settles down here close to the weekend. If you would like a good windfarm site, drive straight up 39N in Il. and have a good look at the windmill farm on the west side of the highway. Big ones, REAL big ones.

Hey whats going on up in Shelbyville?, the hospital used to be one that I visited on a regular basis as a field service guys of hospital equipment.

Pick a time and spot we can meet up.

You could come by the homestead. Might be a little crowded , have some right nice Southern folks camping out on our second floor until they can go back home ( what's left of it).

If you get close to stopping let me know, I would like to get into a much deeper conversation about the solar farm.

I have an old idea I'd like to run by someone else.

Have a good trip.

Bruce S

Phil Timmons · « **Reply #29 on:** October 04, 2005, 08:28:46 AM »

Oh, the Shelbyville project is a the lake there (dunno a whole lot about the area, yet -- just a spot on the map to me until we get up there). There is a Corps of Engineer dam there, about 50 or 60 years old, I think. Some of the stuff in it is worn out, so this is a rebuild contract on a set of spiral stairs up inside one of the tube ends. About 100 foot vertical. I have to get detailed measurements and pictures to build the replacement one.

This is pretty much what I do -- weird stuff in weird places -- sometimes called "Design and Build." Electrical, mechanical, electronics, and usually software if it some kind of equipment or building is being upgraded or modernized. Sometimes projects involve all those areas in one, sometimes other skills, too.

Anyway, I am on a bunch of bid lists for doing weird and/or "ugly" projects, and hop around the country and a little bit beyond, doing them. I never really know what the next project will be, but they usually tend to be "interesting" in the cautionary sense of that word.

Keeps me and the guys I play with out of trouble, and pays the bills. Life is sort of fun that way, except for when we are in the middle of a project -- then we are working 80 to a 100 hours a week, swearing that we never do another . . . until the next one, and everyone says "oh that one looks like fun, Phil. Let's do that one." So we do and it starts, again.

So I look at the RE stuff you all do here as just a bunch of weird (and sometimes ugly) projects.

Ok, loading the truck, have to stop in East Texas for the night, and then on up to the northlands.

News:

Author Topic: Chock one up to ethanol! (Read 430 times)