Author Topic: Douglas County NV anti-wind power zoning.  (Read 593 times)

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Ungrounded Lightning Rod

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Douglas County NV anti-wind power zoning.
« on: September 07, 2007, 10:47:37 AM »
Had a good news/bad news week.


I'm out at the Nevada place.  Now that things are getting together at the CA townhouse I'm startig to set up for actually putting in the alternative energy stuff out here.


One of the reasons we chose this site is that there are both wind and solar resources available, and a number of the surrounding places have solar panels, wind turbines, and the like.  And I'd done some research on the state laws and was under the impression that the only significnat limit was a max of three mills before being considered a "wind farm" for rule and tax purposes.


So I went in to the county planning and code people in Tuesday to find out what the zoning and code requirements were.  Rural wind generation has been around since before rural grid power, and rural water-pump windmills for longer.  So I expected it to be just electrical code details and structural requirements for the tower, if it was regulated at all.


Pretty much everybody at the planning/code/building inspection dept was out except the junior guy.  Imagine my surprise when he told me:

 - Douglas County NV banned ALL wind power, (the wind machines nearby were non-code scofflaws), but

 - There was a new ordinance to allow it going through,

 - The proposed regulations was a bureaucratic web that would make a Californian micromanager jealous,

 - Which would limit me to one mill, max 10 ft diameter at 35 feet, sited REALLY poorly (either dangerously close to the house or blocking the neighbor's view of the valley with the battery shed over the well), commercially built (big buck$), yadda yadda, and

 - The "second reading" (and up/down vote) would be the NEXT DAY!


(And by the way:  solar instalations must be "screened" by landscaping or the like so they're not visible from off the property.)


So I took the home a copy of the proposed ordinance home and went back on Thu to deliver my objections in the "public comment" session before the vote.  (I'd have liked to discuss this with you guys and solicit ideas, but the meeting was at 1:00 so I hardly had time to read the darned ordinance and had to wing it.)


It turns out that the state government had passed a law in '05 mandating the counties change their zoning and code to promote eco-friendly construction materials and energy cogeneration (calling out wind / solar power generation and straw-bale insulation as prime examples of what was to be promoted).  Douglas County's commissioners had handed the job of drafting the ordinance changes to the code guys, who assigned it to the new guy, and this led to the straight-jacket proposal and a two-year (so far) "controversey" (i.e much hooraw).


At the meeting there were a number of other "public commenters", mostly also pro-wind-power, anti-straightjacket.  (A couple NotInMyBackYard urban types waited 'til the end to wave strawmen.  Everybody else said that this was intrusive overregulating bullhockey.)


The commissioners seemed to agree that the ordinance was too tight - my reading was that at least half of 'em were genuinely of that position (one saying he'd like a mill himself but the current rules would ban it), the others harder to read but at least giving it lip service.  They passed it (alternative being to completely ignore the state mandate and leave mills illegal), but with their own mandate that the issue be reopened in 9 months to a year to substantially lower the bar.  (I.e. directing the code guys to come up with a better proposal and integrating it into their workload cycle.)


After the meeting I got together with some of the other commenters and the junior guy from the code department.  At first he seemed to be open to going with the commission mandate, but it soon developed that he was refractory on his position.  (Conversational dynamic:  He'd give his reasons for a particular restriction, but when we'd try to propose a more reasonable answer to the concern or show him how to compute an more reasonable upper bound on a hazard, he'd defend the position {sometimes citing his own ignorance of engineering and/or unwillingness to rely on the opinions of even certified experts such as civil engineers}, and quickly switch to another subject.  If he'd been genuinely interested in upgrading the ordinance, as directed, rather than fighting tooth-and-nail to keep his red tape intact, he'd have stuck with each subject to collect the suggestions as a starting point for his own work.)  After a few iterations of this, two of us simultaneously declared that it was clear he wasn't interested in what we had to say and we all walked off to continue our discussion without him.


= = = =


My take at this point is that there's little chance that the code department that produced this crypto-ban, world-as-padded-cell ordinance after two years of public wrangling will come up with anything reasonable when they revisit it in another nine months - without (or even with) external prodding.  So what I'd like to do over the next few months is come up with a more reasonable model code to submit as an alternative.  Something that would permit owner-built equipment rather than requiring use of commercial gear, would permit experimental designs, and would have safety standards that would protect the neighbors without mandating $100,000 commercial approval processes designed by big manufacturers to keep small fry from competing.


I was wondering:

 - if the people on this board think this approach is a good idea,

 - would be interested in participating (perhaps in concert with other wind-power players), and

 - if the board itself (either main-line postings or diary entries) might be a good venue for these discussions.


= = = =


Presuming there's interest:  The next posting will give the text of the ordinance to kick off a discussion of what needs fixing.



Please make it a Diary. This is somewhat marginal topic wise. T

« Last Edit: September 07, 2007, 10:47:37 AM by (unknown) »

Ungrounded Lightning Rod

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Re: Douglas County NV anti-wind power zoning.
« Reply #1 on: September 07, 2007, 05:15:12 AM »
Hmmm...  Tried to include a poll but it doesn't seem to have happened.


(Of course the operators of the board get a veto on whether the board is a proper venue.  B-)  )

« Last Edit: September 07, 2007, 05:15:12 AM by Ungrounded Lightning Rod »

Ungrounded Lightning Rod

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Re: Douglas County NV anti-wind power zoning.
« Reply #2 on: September 07, 2007, 05:18:30 AM »
Oh, there it is over on the right...
« Last Edit: September 07, 2007, 05:18:30 AM by Ungrounded Lightning Rod »

Bruce S

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Re: Douglas County NV anti-wind power zoning.
« Reply #3 on: September 07, 2007, 06:50:01 AM »
ULR;

   IMHO: I think you are indeed going about it the right way.

Here on the board, there is such wide spread opinions that you're sure to come up with as many helpful questions as you will answers.


St. Louis is also trying to become more Windmill friendly so if there's anything I can do then , count me in.


Cheers!

Bruce S


 

« Last Edit: September 07, 2007, 06:50:01 AM by Bruce S »
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disaray1

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Re: Douglas County NV anti-wind power zoning.
« Reply #4 on: September 07, 2007, 07:27:49 AM »
ULR- Man, that sucketh. So strange...in this day and age, people are starting to pay attention to "Green" power alternatives, that the county seems to be going somewhat backwards. Hmmm. Makes me think junior code man has a relative in the commercial wind business. This kinda thing happens frequently. Call me a conspiracy theorcist.


 I deal with the local gov. here on a regular basis, and it can be extremely frustrating to get anything accomplished. I hate it. Yet, I've an advantage over what you've got going on...I've been in this county for 20 years and I know who the players are, and you are the new kid on the block there. I'm currently envolved in an effort to get an old local ordinance changed into a version that fits more aproppriatly with current needs of the county. This has been going on for over a year, and I expect will continue to go on until the commisioners that are so dead set against changes, either retire, or get voted out. The county commissioners are all heavily entrenched, and are protective of there underlings.


 !!!Care must be taken to not make big waves coming out of the box, or ALL of your efforts will get squashed pronto! Follow "Robert's Rules" closely. !!!


 Creating your own model code is not a bad idea. Getting it in front of right person at the county is the tough part. Getting them to READ it will be even tougher. You need friends on the inside.


 Is there a Douglas county newspaper? How about a local TV station? Making freinds at one of these will be invaluable.  One well crafted article laying out the whole mess to the public is a very powerful tool. Make them see you're point. Elegantly. Do it right, and you'll have all the support horsepower you can handle at the next commission meeting. Know any celebs?


 Careful investigation of all of the "powers that be" is a good thing. Who pulls the strings?       BTW- I notice that 3 of the commisioners are up for re-election in 2008. Ever wanted to be in gov??


 I probably havent said anything you didn't already think of. Just yacking.


 I'll help if I can. Lemeknow.


 David


 

« Last Edit: September 07, 2007, 07:27:49 AM by disaray1 »

Phil Timmons

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Re: Douglas County NV anti-wind power zoning.
« Reply #5 on: September 07, 2007, 01:05:52 PM »
UGL --


mho, this is a great thing to cover, as I see it from would be customers' side and home RE types all the time around here (Dallas/Fort Worth Area of Texas).  Here the battle is with Home Owner Associations (HOA).  I sort of now consider any HOA area as RE waste land -- just pass it by.


But in your case, you are dealing with government agencies, at a county wide level.  My recommend would be a Lawsuit for Injuctive Relief against the County that is attempting to ban your activity and harming the Public Interest (acting against the State Mandate).  A suit such as this is easy to write (and/or I or others can help you).  You can file everything without any attorney, and costs should be in the very low hundreds -- about $185 here.


That will put them up to pucker factor 10 or beyond, as it will get you "discovery" rights in the background of what is going on.  Good chance the jerk you are dealing with has some "outside" influence.  Doing this stuff pro se (without attorney) is fairly cheap and easy, and pro se (typically nutcases :) like us) win a fair amount of the time.  Last pro se case I had to push through, I wound up beating Harriet Meirs (yeah, GW's ding-bat for the Supreme Court) on a SLAPP suit.

« Last Edit: September 07, 2007, 01:05:52 PM by Phil Timmons »

disaray1

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Re: Douglas County NV anti-wind power zoning.
« Reply #6 on: September 07, 2007, 01:34:49 PM »
I'd like to see the ordinance. Phil, what is the State Mandate you speak of? A law suit is the "big waves out of the box" I was talking about. The city managers and attorneys love that crap.


 David

« Last Edit: September 07, 2007, 01:34:49 PM by disaray1 »

Phil Timmons

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Re: Douglas County NV anti-wind power zoning.
« Reply #7 on: September 07, 2007, 01:46:46 PM »
From the starting post of this thread:


"It turns out that the state government had passed a law in '05 mandating the counties change their zoning and code to promote eco-friendly construction materials and energy cogeneration"


Assuming that UGLR is correct on that, he can cite recognized Public Interest in his Cause of Action.  A claim of Public Interet can carry you in Civil Court about as far as the law, itself.  It would be a handy thing to show that the County is acting against the Public Interest.  Also can become political suicide for the County Commissioners involved.


If they are so stupid to fight it, UGLR can also run for office on Commissioner's Court and cause them more heartburn.  Just running for office gives you a lot of freedom to voice your point of view without recourse against you for Slander and Libel.  

« Last Edit: September 07, 2007, 01:46:46 PM by Phil Timmons »

disaray1

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Re: Douglas County NV anti-wind power zoning.
« Reply #8 on: September 07, 2007, 01:55:23 PM »
 Gotcha- sometimes it pays to re-read. I'm researching the mandate.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2007, 01:55:23 PM by disaray1 »

richhagen

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Re: Douglas County NV anti-wind power zoning.
« Reply #9 on: September 07, 2007, 02:35:05 PM »
Hi UGL, You have my sympathy and support in your battle.  Are there any provisions in the County Code for zoning variances.  That might give  the commission the opportunity to allow your project without having to rewrite the zoning laws.  Such provisions exist where I am at.  It might give them a way out, without a big fight/pain/effort to sort it all out permanently in a new zoning law.  They have to look at what anyone might do, worst case senario for the general zoning ordinance, and will be more reluctant to loosen it up to much.  Rich
« Last Edit: September 07, 2007, 02:35:05 PM by richhagen »
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CmeBREW

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Re: Douglas County NV anti-wind power zoning.
« Reply #10 on: September 07, 2007, 04:37:26 PM »
ULR,,, Sorry to hear about this. I hope you can figure out a way around this. I've been studying some county codes and ordinance laws on the internet around where I live, way out in 'the country', and I couldn't believe what I was reading also. From what I've been reading so far it looks like 'homemade' windmills don't have a chance. They all seem to indicate a person has to have a qualified (certified, bonified,etc.) mechanical enginneer 'sign off' on your windmill and its design. It might as well say that Gabriel the arch angel has to give his stamp of approval on it first. The county engineer is in Kahoots with them! Yeah, right. So I am very upset about these unreasonable, mostly unjustified rules myself. I am now afraid to put up a 8-10 footer (Hawt) now because of this. I think there has been some good, tactful advice so far. Speaking of lawsuit, If memory serves me right, I think there was a very good link to issues like this on Ben's website, "Gotwind.com". But it was a year ago or so. Now, I don't see it on there anymore.(on his links page)

 I meant to save it. They went about it very smart and methodical. It was about this couple having to fight either the township or the county-- and they eventually had to file a lawsuit against them for the same reasons--- they were eventually given a variance (exeption) permit as was just mentioned by Richhagan above. You might contact Ben and ask him for the link.

With everything getting worse (electric bill, food, global warming on the news, etc.), I think many of these unreasonable codes will be 're-written' for the better,  in the near future. You gave some indication of this in your posting. The problem is it always takes so much time!  Always keep your cool, no matter what.

I also would like to see the ordinance specifics.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2007, 04:37:26 PM by CmeBREW »

Chagrin

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Re: Douglas County NV anti-wind power zoning.
« Reply #11 on: September 07, 2007, 06:12:04 PM »
I'd be careful in flinging around arguments regarding the "public interest". Noise abatement is in the public interest, not obstructing a rural vista is in the public interest, and not getting hit in the head with a windmill blade is of particular interest (at least to me). Basically you're weighing one interest against another and need to make sure you approach the issue carefully.


I'm not a NIMBY, I'm just trying to help prep you :)

« Last Edit: September 07, 2007, 06:12:04 PM by Chagrin »

feral air

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Re: Douglas County NV anti-wind power zoning.
« Reply #12 on: September 08, 2007, 11:14:35 AM »
I wonder what kind of codes are in place for signs. If it takes less paperwork&money to put up a sign then maybe you could get creative and bend the law a little.


If that was the cheaper/easier way to go I'd build a big S-VAWT...


On one side I'd put: "Got Wind?"

On the other side: "Here's Your Sign."


Have it generate the power to run lights for the sign and any excess is gravy - stickin' to the man is its own reward. If it worked out I'd consider starting a local "sign" company. ;)


If nothing else, reading code for something that's sort of similar could give you some ideas. Just a thought.

« Last Edit: September 08, 2007, 11:14:35 AM by feral air »

feral air

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Re: Douglas County NV anti-wind power zoning.
« Reply #13 on: September 08, 2007, 11:20:01 AM »
Stickin' to the man would be...awkward. That should be "stickin' it to the man".


Anyway...

« Last Edit: September 08, 2007, 11:20:01 AM by feral air »

CmeBREW

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Re: Douglas County NV anti-wind power zoning.
« Reply #14 on: September 08, 2007, 11:50:37 AM »
I was incorrect about that link above being from 'Gotwind.org'. So my memory DON'T serve me well. I can't find it. Does anyone recall the link I am trying to refer to above? I wish I had saved it myself. I recall they were trying to put up a decent size turbine (12'?) fairly high in the air. (60-80 feet tower)  And a couple of distant neighbors were opposed, even though they lived way out in rural territory. Anyone know the link I'm refering to?
« Last Edit: September 08, 2007, 11:50:37 AM by CmeBREW »

scottsAI

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Re: Douglas County NV anti-wind power zoning.
« Reply #15 on: September 08, 2007, 11:59:45 AM »
CmeBREW,


Licensed engineers or PE can sign for most certifications etc.

I have a cross discipline PE, I can sign almost anything in MI.


My Dad made some of the same comments, to expensive etc. Never even checked.

Sold the property. The guy that bought it liked my Dad's ideas, using my dad's drawings paid an engineer $50 to sign.


PE cost $65 to $150/hr, show a book of your wind mill design and find locations with one built.

If they want more than couple hours fee find someone else. Always discuss fees and cost up front.

PE may want to see final system before final sign off, be a good idea to find PE interested in what your doing first. Good luck.


Have fun,

Scott.

« Last Edit: September 08, 2007, 11:59:45 AM by scottsAI »

CmeBREW

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Re: Douglas County NV anti-wind power zoning.
« Reply #16 on: September 09, 2007, 09:40:30 AM »
I see. Sounds like good advice Scott. At least don't have to deal with a 'County engineer'. So I guess, the "P" in PE means 'property'engineer?? I bet it would be difficult to get a PE to approve of something different like a big VAWT (8'x 4"dia.) for example, since every design is different and unpredictable in high winds. I wonder if one can draw up the design plans himself.

I think what ULR is wanting to do is a good effort. I bet you can find that state mandate you mentioned on the internet.  
« Last Edit: September 09, 2007, 09:40:30 AM by CmeBREW »

scottsAI

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Re: Douglas County NV anti-wind power zoning.
« Reply #17 on: September 09, 2007, 10:11:14 AM »
PE = professional engineer. I may sign my name with PE at the end:-)

Requires a License. I have only used my PE to sign for others to get PE.

PE is difficult to get, I got it for my resume.


PE are just like any other person, some are more crazy than others.

Shop around you can find the right one to sign. The better your design documentation the easier it will be to find the right someone, that is why I suggested a book plan. If your own design, include equations showing design meets wind strength requirements and other such stuff.


I read recently MI was considering or has required RE stuff to be certified by a RE engineer. Problem the collages have only recently started teaching it. Have not looked into it. Anybody else know?


What state mandate?


Have fun,

Scott.

« Last Edit: September 09, 2007, 10:11:14 AM by scottsAI »

CmeBREW

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Re: Douglas County NV anti-wind power zoning.
« Reply #18 on: September 09, 2007, 01:19:08 PM »
Thanks Scott:  Just refering to what ULR said above in his comments:

 "It turns out that the state government had passed a law in '05 mandating the counties change their zoning and code to promote eco-friendly construction materials and energy cogeneration (calling out wind / solar power generation and straw-bale insulation as prime examples of what was to be promoted)."


Maybe he could find that state mandate document on the internet and use it somehow??

I have nothing against 'county engineers'. Some can be more helpful than others.

It would be nice to get something like an 'experimenters permit' at one's own home---but I don't think thats permitted. (unless you can open up your OWN University at home)

 

« Last Edit: September 09, 2007, 01:19:08 PM by CmeBREW »

scottsAI

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Re: Douglas County NV anti-wind power zoning.
« Reply #19 on: September 09, 2007, 02:05:03 PM »
I ran into a university type. He claimed you can get grant money from DARPA. Using the grant, the state and local gov can NOT stop you from doing the experiment on your property, assuming it's part of the grant. When the grant runs out (can be several years) the local gov can make you remove it. Assuming they remember.

Some grants do not have much money associated, more a experimenters permit to build.

Write up the study as a long term 20yr benefit to a wind system and ask for a dollar. There must be a down side to doing this, I just do not know what it is. I would suspect the local gov could stop you based on public safety, but would need a compelling reason to do so.

Have fun,

Scott.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2007, 02:05:03 PM by scottsAI »

CmeBREW

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Re: Douglas County NV anti-wind power zoning.
« Reply #20 on: September 09, 2007, 02:45:32 PM »
Wow! I was just joking--but now that sounds interesting!. I am going to look further into that. I think this is in 'the spirit' of what the poster was asking for-- ideas and so forth related to this difficult issue. Perhaps, if we could all focus on our common interest(s) and put our heads together, we might come up with some pretty good stuff!

I'm going to try to get a grant and open up my own 'University' at home!!  

 
« Last Edit: September 09, 2007, 02:45:32 PM by CmeBREW »

scottsAI

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Re: Douglas County NV anti-wind power zoning.
« Reply #21 on: September 09, 2007, 08:42:49 PM »
I suspected you were. But:

It gave me a thought and I thought you might like it!


Let us know how it goes!


Have fun,

Scott.

« Last Edit: September 09, 2007, 08:42:49 PM by scottsAI »

howlet

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Re: Douglas County NV anti-wind power zoning.
« Reply #22 on: September 16, 2007, 12:20:04 AM »
Hi All,  It seems that anyone, interested in advancing the Green Energy Cause, is met with an unsurmountable opposition from local, state, and federal bureaucrats at almost every level or agency.


 One can only speculate about the reasons for this although they seem clear in most renewable energy proponents minds. Money(greed), power, and control are the ultimate fundamental roadblocks.


 The agencies responsible for erecting these roadblocks more than likely have corporate special interest groups influencing their rhetoric by way of political contributions, tradeoffs, and outright questionable ethical practices.


 Any individual with a desire to produce their own energy or develop a new way to make this nation less dependant on fossil fuels will be met with an ever increasing opposition until we form a collective organization that is supported soley by its members, both financially and in its fundamental belief that every citizen has the right to produce their own energy except in cases where energy production can potentially harm our fellow citizens or ecological environment.


Just my opinion. Jeff

« Last Edit: September 16, 2007, 12:20:04 AM by howlet »

feral air

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Re: Douglas County NV anti-wind power zoning.
« Reply #23 on: September 26, 2007, 03:24:34 PM »
And we'd end up with a renewable energy version of NORML if we tried to form an organization I bet.


I'm not trying to equate one with the other either, just saying...the same kind of stuff would take place. We'd get called crackpot hippies or whatever the politicos needed to say/do to keep their "investors" happy.

« Last Edit: September 26, 2007, 03:24:34 PM by feral air »

TomW

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Re: Douglas County NV anti-wind power zoning.
« Reply #24 on: September 26, 2007, 04:12:09 PM »
Damned Wind Hippies
« Last Edit: September 26, 2007, 04:12:09 PM by TomW »

elvin1949

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Re: Douglas County NV anti-wind power zoning.
« Reply #25 on: September 26, 2007, 11:20:15 PM »
HAHAHA   Tom

 Compliments will not get you FREE power.

later

Elvin
« Last Edit: September 26, 2007, 11:20:15 PM by elvin1949 »

Tritium

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Re: Douglas County NV anti-wind power zoning.
« Reply #26 on: September 27, 2007, 07:54:03 AM »
All this is just the opposite of my problems. There are no zoning rules, county inspectors or inspections or anything else of that nature standing in my way to grid tie. My problem is the Rural electric cooperative requires a 1 million dollar liability insurance policy to be in place before I grid tie. This could never be cost effective so grid tie for me is not possible. Sorry if this is slightly off topic. It might be nice to have a section about dealing with such issues.


Thurmond

« Last Edit: September 27, 2007, 07:54:03 AM by Tritium »

DamonHD

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Re: Douglas County NV anti-wind power zoning.
« Reply #27 on: September 27, 2007, 08:52:02 AM »
Well, if we get such a section then I have a set of relevant links for the UK and for London.


Rgds


Damon

« Last Edit: September 27, 2007, 08:52:02 AM by DamonHD »
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spinningmagnets

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Re: Douglas County NV anti-wind power zoning.
« Reply #28 on: September 28, 2007, 08:11:28 PM »
I hope this is not too far "off-topic" but as it concerns the city/county/state governments restricting RE efforts, I think it may be relevant.


In Colorado, I recall reading about ordinances that prevent collecting rain (Huh?). Some remote homes would build a system that would use a roof to collect rain into a holding cistern (after bypassing the first 10 minutes to flush dirt off the roof). When a citizen didn't pay for city water, it was harder for the county to finance large water treatment projects.


The "premise" I keep hearing about concerning wind is "property values" being adversely affected in a dense urban community by wind-gens. In some communities, it sounds like a low VAWT might be more sellable (if ANY wind-gen is possible).


If you convert a diesel car/truck to have the capability of occasionally running off of untaxed Waste Vegetable Oil (WVO), you may need to post a bond of several hundred dollars with the state, and also pay a quarterly estimated road use tax (normally paid by the rest of us as part of retail fuel prices).


When the fecal extrusions hit the air-circulating-device, the same people who are now preventing RE in cities, will then be demanding it from the government (heavy sigh)

« Last Edit: September 28, 2007, 08:11:28 PM by spinningmagnets »

coldspot

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Re: Douglas County NV anti-wind power zoning.
« Reply #29 on: October 11, 2007, 06:13:10 AM »
ULR-

Maybe this story can help you out,,..

$0.02

"http://www.cnn.com/2007/TECH/science/10/09/pip.wind.energy/index"

« Last Edit: October 11, 2007, 06:13:10 AM by coldspot »
$0.02

GeeMac

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Re: Douglas County NV anti-wind power zoning.
« Reply #30 on: November 18, 2007, 07:16:03 AM »
The best thing you can do is shine the light on them. Publicize it everywhere you can locally and make sure CNN/FOX and MSNBC and the rest get a publicity release.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2007, 07:16:03 AM by GeeMac »