Solar Powered Electric Snail Fence

[Bill Richardson]

Hello to everyone - can someone help.

Professional Snail farmers in France keep their snails in enclosures that have "green wind screen" type fabric for walls with an electric fence tape stitched along the top. The mains energisers are 10000 volt 12 watts 50 hertz - but thats all the info given on the device. Does this mean its 1.2 milliamps?

If I was to try to use solar power what sort of sizes/values should then energiser have and how big would the panels need to be.  I'm looking at 250m of snail tape on a perimeter - the snail tape has 4 stainless steel tapes so its 500m + and 500m -.  The system needs to run Feb to June.

Thanks

Bill

Many thanks,

Bill

[Flux]

Not being a snail expert take this with a pinch of salt, but other electric fence systems use capacitor discharge pulse systems not 50Hz transformers. 10kV at 50 Joules would be a reasonable rating for a modest one.

If snails work on the same principle then there are plenty of battery operated fencers available and some include a solar charger.

If it really is 10kv ac50Hz at 50W you will struggle and just have to run a commercial unit from a small inverter ( say 100W) and it will take far more than a normal capacitor discharge unit.

Flux

[Flux]

Try looking at Rutland Electric Fencing or Galagher to see if their units will do what you want.

I really can't see how it works on snails or how they complete the circuit, but I do remember sparking slugs with a tractor magneto as a boy and watching them keel over and ooze slippery stuff. If your intention is to keep them in then I think it will require little energy. Even if you kill those trying to escape it won't take much if you can get a circuit.

Flux

[Bill Richardson]

Flux thanks for replying.

Inside the energiser that I have is what seems to be a huge capacitor - it looks

like a slightly smaller version of the thing in old minis.

This is how it seems to work.  The snail tape http://www.cloture-electrique.net/cat-ruban-escargot-51.html

has four tapes.  As the snail moves upwards it hits a + tape as it proceeds it hits

a - tape this deters the snail.  The tape repeats itself with tape 3 being + and tape 4 being the earth.

The professional farms are keeping 2 million in enclosures using this method.  I can buy the materials in France is just its a fortune.  If I could source them in the UK it would be better.

Thanks

Bill

[ghurd]

I don't know what 'snail tape' is.  Is it 4 seperate conductors, +, -, +, -?

That is the only way it would make sense to me, related to snails.

If all 4 conductors are 'hot' the snail has to reach the tape and ground at the same time.  Or one tape to the next.

A blade of grass touching the 'hot' tape will use a lot of power.  Damp wood will too.

I would look for a 12V battery powered fencer. Not a solar powered fencer.

They use very little power.  A 5W 12V PV would keep up, if the weeds are not shorting it out.  Some factory made solar fencers only have 2W PVs.

It is cheaper to get a 12V fencer, small battery, and small solar panel, than it is to get a Solar Powered Fencer.

Plus some of the solar fencers use strange and very expensive batteries (ie: 4V SLA).

A 120V / 220V AC fencer will need an inverter.  The inverter will waste more power than the fencer uses.

G-

[Flux]

I think you need to sort out how the tape is arranged. I can see ghurd's logic but somehow I suspect that there is enough "Sting" to the snail to discourage it without giving it a true shock between live and ground. That is probably why they don't get killed with that sort of energy.

I agree that you can use a normal 12v fencer with a solar panel charging it. I suspect it will take little energy to deter the snails but with the whole thing down in the grass I expect the main bulk of the 50 Joules is needed to blow away the grass. Smaller energy units will just drop voltage and not clear the grass.

You may have to source the tape from France, I can't see anyone keeping it in the UK.

Strange project but interesting.

Flux

[ghurd]

The photo looks like the 4 conductors are + - + -.

Maybe it has no ground rod?

Yes, very interesting project.

G-

[BruceDownunder]

I'll send ya over a few  of our trusty 5 Metre diamond Pythons and a few red belly blacks. ,Just make sure you send someone ya don't like  in to fill the water bowls.

But yes ,we use that tape around our fences with a cap discharge thingo ,,and a small solar panel ,maybe 10 watter with a couple 14Ah sla's. she gives you a bite if you're not watching what you are doing.

Bruce

[ghurd]

"she gives you a bite if you're not watching what you are doing"?

Like be careful where you wee-wee?

Did it once.  Won't let that happen again.  Ever.

I have a feeling Mr. Flux knows what we mean.

In the US we mostly just shoot snakes.  Naturally only the non-PC species.

Being I am so responsable, I'll check their diamonds and bellies and blacks and such, before my CCW handgun discharges more than a few times.

I saw some down-under mouse footage.  You guys need more snakes.

G-

[wooferhound]

I think you guys are designing Snail Zappers, like mosquito zappers.

For snails I'm sure that a few volts between wires would be fine enough to stop them from crossing the line.

[Bill Richardson]

Thanks Ghurd,

Yes you were right it four separate tapes the top one(1) is negative followed by a positive(2) the next is negative(3) and the bottom one positive(4) - they all run at about 40 cm parallel to the ground.  From what I can tell the snails are stunned when they bridge a  positive(4) and negative(3) or (3) and (2) or (2) and (1.

How much power would a 10000 volt 0.0012 amp 50 Htz 12 watt energiser use over 1000 metres worth of line. Should I think about wind power?

Thanks

Bill

[Bill Richardson]

Hi Bruce,

Thanks for replying. Go slowly for me I'm trying to piece this together.  What size energiser do you use and what's a 14ah sla's?

thanks Bill

[Bill Richardson]

Hi Wooferhound/Ghurd/Bruce/Flux,

I hope you can see these images.

The first is the snail tape with soldered connections - image from internet

Image 2 = Helistop 10 - a snail energiser

Image 3 = A snail Fence with tape

Best Wishes,

Bill

[Bill Richardson]

[Flux]

"How much power would a 10000 volt 0.0012 amp 50 Htz 12 watt energiser use over 1000 metres worth of line. Should I think about wind power?"

You are looking at this all wrong. The units don't supply 10kV at 1.2mA.

They are capacitor discharge units where a capacitor is charged to about 400V and discharged into the primary of a transformer about every second. The pulse may have a peak of 10kV ( 7 is more typical). Anything that bridges the leads will get zapped with a current in the hundreds of mA, lasting for a few microseconds.

The mean charging current to deliver these high energy pulses is low. Your unit rated at 12W input from 240v is a modest one with probably about 6 Joule energy store in the capacitor. It is going to be one of the biggest units available for 12v battery operation but having now seen how the tape is used well clear of grass and weeds I think you could get away with a much smaller unit.

Even the biggest battery unit only takes about 6oomA from the battery and is well within range of a modest panel. You can probably use something much more modest unless all the snails gang up and cross the tracks together.

Flux

[blueyonder]

hi bill  i think you need to alter the way your doing things.

 this is how i would go about things.

  French snails and English snails  have all the same feelings .

  but don't blame me if they all die at once.

[Brian H]

Woofer is correct. From the USDA website, "Raising Snails" :

Preventing escapes: In an open pen, curve the top of the fences inward in a half circle to confine the vineyard snail. H. aspersa will escape from such an open pen, so you could use an electric fence to contain them. [The electric fence top has two or more thin wires that are 2 to 4mm apart. Each wire carries the opposite charge of the wire next to it. Use a battery or transformer to supply 4 to 12 volts to the wire. A snail will get a mild shock and retract when it crawls over a wire and touches a second wire.]

http://www.nal.usda.gov/afsic/AFSIC_pubs/srb96-05.htm

Lots of other good info as well.

Cheers!

Brian H

[Flux]

That makes a lot of sense to me after my experience with slugs and a magneto, it was pretty certain to kill. No doubt the French have just adapted standard fencer techniques. I really can't imagine something so small wet and slimy needing kV to give it a shock. Very different from animals with virtually insulating hooves and covered in fur.

If this is the case then a tiny battery to hold a charge over night and a small solar panel should do the job without resorting to the high energy pulse technology.

Much less fun though.

Flux

[Bill Richardson]

Many thanks.

Bill

[TheCasualTraveler]

     <<<Even if you kill those trying to escape it won't take much if you can get a circuit.>>>

     I just have to say I think the idea of electrocuting snails trying to escape is not the best method. I feel an old fashioned public hanging as an example to others would do more to discourage would be escapees, supposing that is, that you can get a noose around their slimy little necks.

[TomW]

While I find this subject way way wide of topical, I have to ask why the hell are you making it so complicated?

Would take 5 minutes work to see what steady DC voltage irritates them enough to stay away then implement it. Could even use your fancy tape stuff for that.

I bet 9 volts or less if my standard tongue on terminals test for 9V batteries is any indicator.

Even lower tech would be a vinegar moat or sharp sand ribbons around them.

But its your time money and effort.

Now that we have solved the commercial snail ranchers non problem we can move on to helping someone build something in their garage?

TomW

[ruddycrazy]

Why bother with the electric's when a 12 guage shotgun could be used to blow away those pesky snails, well look at it this way if ya shoot enough of them there will be a decent trench that will take the snails ages to traverse.

I agree totally with Tom on this what in the world does snails have to do with RE even if you are a frog (french).

[finnsawyer]

I thought the idea was to keep the snails in.  Don't the French like to eat snails?

[Bill Richardson]

Nevertheless, it was a genuine question and I appreciate those who took the trouble to answer or give advice. If you don't what to help then ignore the post - its simple.

French Snail Farmers don't use sharp sand, vinegar solutions mainly because the perimeter sizes of the enclosures run on average to around 4000 metres.  They don't

use DC - they always use AC. I don't know why but there it is.

Best Wishes,

Bill

[Nothing40]

If low voltage DC isn't enough,maybe you could try a small inverter,wire the output directly to the tape. -On second thought,add a large resistor in series with the tape,to limit the current.You don't want to cook the snails,or start a fire.

If DC would work,that would be the simplest solution.You may need to experiment a bit,and find a voltage that's high enough,12,24,36? I've no idea. But,all you would need would be a battery for storage,and some solar panels. I don't think either would have to be very large/expensive.

[Electron Skipper]

Nothing more dangerous than a herd of stampeding snails!  "Man! look at that S-Car go!"

It sounds like over there they are using what we call a "Weed burner" here.

I have not tried this but the concept is similar to florescent lighting.  Your flourescent tube actually being a leaky capacitor in a parallel LC resonance circuit.  Which means your CCFL ballast raided from a laptop display might be adequate for a smal scale "Snail Ranch."  Wire the leads that would go to the tube to your tracks as described above.

How would you hogtie a snail BTW?

The Zetex Application Note:

http://www.zetex.com/3.0/appnotes/apps/an17.pdf

would likely be a good place to start- take figure 3, and instead of driving a flourescent tube, run it to your strips in an alternating fashion.  It is also a good starting point for low voltage florescent lighting ballasts too.  Updated in October of 07, it may have been missed.

I can see the French Western now in translation- "RAWSLIDE!"  With Rowdy Yates....  I don't think you could even get Clint to do a cameo with that one.

[getterdone]

sorry to interrupt; i'm not to computer savy, when theres a box on this sight, with a x and i click on it to see what's there, nothing happens. what am i doing wrong?