Update on solar panel building

[iFred]

I have just finished a major update on the solar web page. Let me know what you think!

www.internetfred.com

Good Luck!

Fred.

[Trivo]

FreLove your site.

It is people like you that inspire people like me to experiment with all these varying technologies and give us the inspiration to give it a go even if it does not work, especially if people are telling us we are wasting our time, because we know you can do it and you want to share the knowledge with us then we can do it too.

Keep up the good work

Trivo

[Trivo]

sorry about the typo

Fred  Love your site

[wildbill hickup]

Very cool Fred!!!!!!

[tcrenshaw]

Agree totally with Trivo Fred. Several friends are telling me I'm just blowing money. Well they don't get it that not only am I looking for an energy alternative but I also enjoy experimenting with this stuff. Keep the ideas coming. I'm very interested to see how well your oil based panels work. I'm seeing condensation in my panels that are presently vented. I'm still thinking about helium to purge the air out with and then seal the panels. I just haven't tried it yet. I also started playing merchant against merchant and have my glass down to $37.00 a sheet including tax! Hope to get my third panel assembled this weekend with the fourth and fifth right behind. Great information on the website.

[sandovalch]

Fred:

Looking at your page, which is by the way very good and informative, I found in one section you comment on the cracks on the solar cells, you say "so, any horizontal breaks are bad!! Any vertical breaks are repairable and OK".

I think it's the other way, any horizontal cracks are repairable and the vertical cracks not?

[iFred]

Twas a late night last night. Thanks, I have corrected it.

Thanks for all the kind comments!

[iFred]

At least your having fun!! I would look for ohter sources as well. You could try some other local merchants that might give you some nice sized scraps if  you explain what they are for. remember this is supposed to be doing things on the cheap!

[windstuffnow]

  Nice work iFred!  You've got more patience than I do.  Although, you make it look easy enough that maybe even I could accomplish it.  Unfortunately, I've tried soldering some panels and ... well... If it says Lincoln, Mig or Tig I can run it.  I can sweat copper pipe with a propane torch like a pro... lots of experience from owning a water park back in the 90's... but tiny holes on a perf board or flimbsy strips on a solar cell... well lets just say it aint pretty.

  One observation though.  I noticed on my used panels they used a single layer of glass, the cells in place and the backing was what looks like a sticky back plastic sheet.  Seems like that would reduce the cost as well as give a good cooling option.  I don't remember the brand, Photowatt? maybe.. not sure.  My Evergreens are similar but it looks more like a laminant or a fill from liquid.  You could actually make a ridge using tape around the glass and pour a thin layer of resin over them to set them in permanently.  Just a though...

   Anyway, Keep up the great work!  They look quite nice.

Have Fun

Windstuff Ed

[iFred]

Never even thought of the resin idea.. But would light get through is the problem. I wonder if that liquid plastic that we used as kids to embed quarters into would do any good. I noticed only one problem with the idea just now, heat. These cells get hot fast, and I am not sure where the heat would go if embeded. Need to experiment on that idea, but It might work for smaller projects like the night light idea, Thanks again for the kind comments Ed.

P.S. I looked at your stirling that you posted a day ago or so, what is the differance between a alfa, gamma and beta machine?

Thanks again!

[windstuffnow]

  Hi iFred,

    I'm not sure of the heat disipation value of poly resins but the genny's hold up fairly well.  The layer would only need to be  just slightly thicker than the panels.  It would be interesting to see if it would work out.  Anyway, just a thought.

    On the difference's between the gamma, alpha and beta engines.  The gamma is the easiest to build, I think anyway, and has a displacer piston and power piston.  The only purpose of the displacer is timing the expansion and contraction of gasses.  The beta engine is very similar with the exception the power piston and displacer ride in the same cylinder and is typically driven by an exotic drive system. Considerably more difficult to build and the performance is the same.  The alpha has two pistons like a pump and could be considered a heat pump to some extent.  When driven will create a hot and cold side and when heated both pistons will give back energy.  They typically have to have some extreemly good seals to run... I've never achieved a full run on any that I've built to date.   I'm determined to get one running for my own satisfaction.  Andy Ross used to build them with some pretty extreem compression ratio's but they ran quite well and made some fair power for as small as they were.  I'm bent on finding a way to make electric with solar far cheaper than solar panels... that anyone can build with simple tools...

   Just out of curiosity, what do you have invested in your home made panels  dollars/watt?  I purchased some used panels ( 4- 77 watt ) at 3.08 per watt and my Evergreens cost 3.18 per watt, my goal is to build a solar engine for around 1.00 per watt or less with the option of running it on solar or waste fuel/wood.  I'm fairly sure it can be done if your a good scrounger...

Have Fun

Windstuff Ed

[Jeff7]

I'm another buyer of those fine eBay solar panels. A test of the first panel out of the package showed at least 2 amps, and that wasn't with a very good connection to the back. I imagine that with full contact, that'd be closer to the full 3 amp rated output.

But at any rate, these things look promising enough to try on a solar panel.

I've got a few ideas in mind, but with some snags:

What can I use as a backing? I'm wondering about some kind of metal sheet with cross beam supports outside for rigidity - that way, I can use thermal adhesive to attach the solar cells to it, thus providing a bit of a heatsink.

For the top, two sheets of polycarbonate (Lexan), separated by a small air gap (sealed or unsealed, no sure of that yet). We don't get hail often here in PA, but if we do get any, I'd rather have the first polycarbonate layer absorb the impacts, because if hail hits the PC that's touching the solar cells themselves, the force might be transferred, damaging the cells.

[picmacmillan]

hi ed...not to jump on freds post but i have the same cells as fred and i have concluded it to cost about 75 cents per watt.....not including glass and caulking....although those two items have been donated, so .75 cents is the figure...pickster

[iFred]

Hi Ed, Thanks for the engine descriptions. That's pretty cool, I get it now.

On the solar end I purchased 13 pounds of cells all at once. This ran me about $390 I believe it was which translated to around $550 Canadian.

Shipping/duty was a killer as well. I pay about $80 - but that was part of the above costs as well (included). Two box's arrived and I paid $40 per box.

So far I have made 12 Panels of 28 cells each, all good cells. I have still got enough cells I figure to make an additional 5-7 panels left over, which I have still to make and this does not include the almost 1/4 broken cells after all this. Which I figure I can still make additional projects with.

Also along with this comes, the glass which was not just luck but a godsend freebie! I 'm counting my lucky stars on that one still and can't grasp exactly what happened there, but am grateful. It was like manna from heaven or something! LOL

So I figured it out on my end to be about $1.60-1.80 per cell approx. Still cheaper then anywhere else I could have purchased them.

When I break it down to a single panel however, each panel is about 48 watts. And that cost me about $70-100 approx per panel to make, it is still a good deal.

[iFred]

Many of us have talked allot about how to build these panels, there are infinite ways of doing it. I believe your method is pretty standard as far as the metal backing and the heat conductive materials. I am doing it different then all this, but I am using what's at hand and available on the cheap, I suggest this also to you. The glass we have tended to go with is the car glass or unbreakable stuff, so that the cells are protected as best as can be expected. Check out my site to give you some ideas as to what can be done, do some searches on this site or click above on solar and read away!

http://www.internetfred.com

[windstuffnow]

  I'd say you'll probably have as much as iFred has into his when all is said and done.  Thats still a good price for solar.   I invested 2000.00 this last summer for 650 watts worth of panels and including shipping, frame structure and wire I have about 3.50 per watt.  There are some very good buys out there for laminants.  You can purchase them for around 2.50 per watt but you have to buy a crate of them.   If enough people were interested it might be a good investment for a group of people to make the purchase.  The laminants are complete solar panels without any frame around them.  Some have the connection box where others need them.  I figure framing them would be minimum and could be built into a structure or simple treated lumber frames would work.

   I still think I can build a solar engine for less but that has yet to be proven...

Have Fun

Windstuff Ed

[tcrenshaw]

Fred's got the best detailed website on building panels but he's right on the money about an infinite different number of ways to put these things together. After working with the cells and building three panels I've learned where I can cut costs. My fourth and fifth panels will be of a slightly different design than the first three. Those first three are very heavy. The next two will be much lighter weight yet should be as strong. Experiment, play and figure out what works best for you.

[Jeff7]

I have been keeping track of your building project, and I much appreciate the site you've put together. I've never done anything quite like this before. I tend to need a few prototypes before I get it right, and these solar cells aren't exactly dirt-cheap, and neither is acrylic or polycarbonate. My R&D budget isn't what I'd like it to be.

I'm looking to use polycarbonate because it can be cut with a bandsaw; with glass, you sort of have to make the panels to match the size of the glass sheets.

I'm also glad that my ideas were on track with what's being done already.

I've only got a pound of those fine solar cells; lets hope that seller keeps a good supply of these solar cells coming. I've not seen such cheap solar cells anywhere, especially with this kind of output and quality.