Help me get water!

[wannabefree]

Well this is my problem..We have cattle on a ranch 14 miles from home..and we have power but not where we need it. We where going to build a solar pump house and use that to water the cattle and if possible hook up the tractor on a timer for the block heater. I know the pump is 1/2 horse, 230/115v, max amp. is 10.8/5.4.

We will have it in an insulated pump house with a 100watt light bulb always on. We where hoping to leave the water trickling at 3 gallons a minute to prevent line freeze-up to prevent needing additional heat source.

This is what we had planned..batteries, being trickle charged continually and swapped with full charged every 48-72hrs. Can you give me a helping hand on what we would need as far as battery pack and also what size solar panels. Also will the trickle charge keep it charged enough.  We where going to hook up a 3000/6000watt inverter. Thanks...

[vawtman]

Where do you live?You have power but not where you need it?Where is it?Are you just trying to prevent freezup with the gizmos or run the pump also?

[Volvo farmer]

3 gallons per minute? That's not a trickle, my showerhead uses less than that. That's four thousand gallons a day.

I Agree with Vawtman, we need lots more information. Are you pumping out of a well? How deep? How many gallons a day to the cattle drink?

Does that pump you're using need to run 24/7? If not, how often does it run?

It seems to me there ought to be a better way than swapping out hundreds of pounds of lead acid batteries every two days all winter long.

A cowboy buddy of mine once told me...

There's the right way, there's the easy way, and then there's the cowboy way. ;-)

[stephent]

uhhhh--3 gallons a minute ain't a 'trickle".

That's 4320 gallons a day.

Trickle charging a battery bank with just a few panels would be just that...a trickle with a horrendous demand with the pump running for more then a big percentage of the time with the "trickle" going.

The block heaters are usually 250 watts to 400 watts and they run a lot, almost continously when it's cold. (take a generator with you--plug in the block heater then)

Using a 100 watt light bulb 24/7 is a not so big of a load, and  you could do this with a few panels and battery bank....but the rest

The rest would suck down 4 x 105 Trojans in just a few hours and leave you hanging with the inverter shutting down (if it would even start the pump motor) at 10.5 vdc or so.

Better have a big pickup to hual that many batteries.

Or buy an inverter that would start a generator to bring up the batteries every few hours....the price for enough panels/batteries to keep that system going for a few days without the inverter shutting down is going to be a lot of $$$$$ and space to mount them.

rethink the system--maybe use a 12 vdc pump--insulate the heck out of the building and use solar heat collectors/mass storage for heating. forget the block heater until you get there.

Don't trickle water at 3GPM.

Planning to keep the system running more then 48/72 hours without emergency care is what I would plan for.--doo-doo occurs when ya can't get there for some reason.

There should be a way to do what you need.

[Countryboy]

Windmills have been used for pumping water for how many thousand years?  A waterpumper windmill might be your wisest solution.  

An easy way to heat water troughs during the winter is to bury a 55 gallon drum or two, deeper than the frost line.  Then place the water trough directly (no air gap) on top of the drum.  The ground temperature below the frost line will keep the air in the drums above freezing, which will help keep the water in the troughs from freezing.

[GaryGary]

Hi,

You might take a look here, and see if any of the articles or solutions match what you want to do:

http://www.builditsolar.com/Projects/WaterPumping/waterpumping.htm

I agree with the others that if you don't want to be putting in 20 grand worth of PV panels you need to work the numbers some more.

Gary

[Nando]

The problem needs to be solved step by step.

First: How far is the cattle to the power lines ?

Second: How far is the Pump/well to the power lines?

Third:How many gallons/liters do each head of cattle needs in a daily bases.

Do you have a water storage tank if so were and what volume, and how weather protected.

Where are the water feeding places in reference to the pump/well

Do you have HAY for insulation ?.

Tank storage placed below the freezing level -- ideal, though in some cases expensive and will require pumping in winter -- above ground with a lot of hay insulation -- 2 layers with additional ground insulation to reduce the heat losses.

Water tank in a hill placed below the freezing line and if possible with gravity feed.

NOW:

Keep water from freezing requires good thermal insulation with minimum heating, just replacing the minimized heat loss.

It may require two hay widths for all sides of the volume to be protected.

Cattle training: Train the cattle to open a valve with their nozzles ( done in the northern parts of USA which I assisted a fellow to do it) or a detector to allow certain water volume for each head .

Water feeding semi-weather protected which the cattle insert the head to drink -- using heavy plastic curtains and a larger heater in the container. -- may not be possible for you.

Electrical power level to see what is best -- to produce it or to send it .

Water temperature replacement, to pump water from the well to keep the tank full and the same time warmer ( may require that the water tank needs to release colder water to maintain temperatures above freezing point.)

Visit : http://www.builditsolar.com/Projects/WaterPumping/waterpumping.htm it may give You info to cover your needs

SUPPLY THE INFORMATION POINTS TO DO AN ANALYSIS OF YOUR PROBLEM - more information better suggestions and search in Internet that may give good solutions.

Just some ideas until more info is supplied

Nando

[Ungrounded Lightning Rod]

Why are you using 2.4 KWHr/day of electricity to keep the water and shed plumbing warm?  Heating is NOT the job for solar electric.  You've got sun if you're using panels:  Put in a big black storage tank and keep it partly filled all the time.  You'll get nearly twice that energy on every square yard of the tank's cross-section to the noon sun every sunny day, and much of it even on cloudy ones.  (Your main problem will be that the cows will be getting hot water in sunny times if they drink near the trough fill valve.)  Water stores heat really well.  So a big tank shouldn't freeze up short of a long stretch of farenheit negative temperatures combined with overcast - and those two normally don't combine in places where cows can survive.

A trickle of that water (and I do mean TRICKLE, not 3 GPM) will keep your pipes thawed.  Or make your pipes a loop to where you tap them and back, insulate them anywhere they're outside the shed, and run a low-powerd circulating pump to swap the water in the pipes with that in the tank whenever they get below 40 degrees or so.  Or discharge a bit of water into the tank.

Also:  if you run the lines between the shed and the tank below the frost line they won't freeze even in the depths of winter.

If you put your watering trough fill valve inside the shed, followed by an antisiphon device, and run plastic plumbing from there, strictly downhill and ending above the trough edge, the outside pipe will empty whenever the valve is off and thus never freeze.

Do you have wind?  A big tank, a windmill, and a small permanently installed battery bank might be a LOT better solution than hauling hundreds of pounds of batteries on a 28-mile round trip to/from the shed every couple days.  (Heck:  You'd burn less fuel running an onsite generator to provide the power.)

(By the way:  Why do you want to heat with a hundred watt lamp always on?  An insulated pump house takes very little heat to avoid freezing, and a single bulb is a single point of failure.  Thing to do is use a couple long-life 60 watt bulbs (for backup - one is more than enough heat) and a thermostat.  Mount them low.  If you paint the inside of the pump house a light color you can put a switch across the stat to light the shack when you're working there, and you'll notice if one is burnt out so you'll know to change it.  But the "heat with a lamp" hack is really only appropriate when you have power to burn, not when it's precious.)

[thirteen]

Not sure where you live. I'm in Montana. We (my dad 20 years ago) used two 10000 g tanks for our horses.  Years ago we tared them then buried them and put a building on the end with two covered entrances for them to get water.  We had electricity but also used a generator for backup. We did needed it two or three times a year. We had a battery bank that was charged with elect. It sounds like solar might work if it would only have to start a generaqtor run every couple of days (6-7). I am not sure of the water supply or the amount you need. We never had problems with the water freezing. They did face south. We filled them every couple of weeks. They had a push on a valve for water and they could only put their head inside. That might be a better deal rather than trikling water 24hrs. Where would the water go so it would not create an ice problem.  You might be able to return it back to a storage tank to keep the water rather than pump more. If you did run it 24/7 then you might need to build a pond to retain the water pumped. You paid for it you as well use it. If you got a pond then you could always irrigate a couple of fields for pasture or hay. Or if you had a slope then you might be able to gravity feed a water trough in a sparate field.

If you do use used tanks be sure and clean the insides with soap. Ours were from an old fuel yard and had diesel fuel in them.  They may pay you to take the tanks off their hands?

Just a couple of ideas.  

[RogerAS]

WannaB,

You wrote:

"I know the pump is 1/2 horse, 230/115v, max amp. is 10.8/5.4."

I think you mean 230/110V, 5.4/10.8A.

If you need to run it at a given rate, 3 gal minute, plus keep a light bulb warming the joint up so everything doesn't freeze it must be  a cold SOB where you are. Do you have to supply that much water for the stock?  I think with a flow through the pump and the heated room you're gonna be safe from freezeup unless you're on the North Slope.

Multiplying 110VX10.8A=1188 wats. So if powered by batteries through an inverter you'll need one maybe 3 times the running AC demand of the pump upon startup. The motor will pull a great deal more than the nameplate for the first few moments it starts. So avoid start-stop cycles. So to run the pump alone you will need a 3000/6000 watt inverter as you say, and maybe one even higher rated. I'd ask the inverter maker.

The batteries, at least lead acid, will chill and lose effectiveness if exposed to that kind of cold. If possible, even if you're gonna switch them, house them in the well house. As for the amp hour rating and voltage of the battery bank it's your call. Switch them out often with a small bank, but to run that pump any time at all is gonna require a pretty beffy battery bank. You'll need a pair of trailers to make them big enough to last 48-72 hours.

12. V X 99 A = 1188 watts.
    
24. V X  49.5 A = 1188 watts.
    
48. V X 24.75A = 1188 watts
    
    

That's IF the batteries are  perfect, IF the inverter is perfect, IF the wiring is perfect, yadda yadda. Drawing 100 amps from a 12V bank is possible, but you'd have to make said bank huge to have it last more than a few hours under that sort of load. Going to 48 volts will just force you to have more batteries to get the higher voltage. Higher voltages require less thick cabling. Nothing's perfect so prepare for loses and plan accordingly. There are AC inverters for each of these voltages DC source.

Did you ever consider a very small diesel engine housed with the pump to power it as needed and to lend it's heat to the area?. I have a Kubota® one cylinder engine that is water cooled. Between the exhaust and radiated heat the BTU's are up there. Mine uses about 4-5 OUNCES per hour of diesel pulling a large frame alernator. It could, and will, drive an AC generator head as well. Pepa (a poster to this forum) has a much better setup and he's running veggie diesel in a Lister-Petter®. Both of us are running surplus used US armed forces engines. I can't speak for Pepa, but I'm pretty proud of my $250 engine (new about $1500). These deals are still out there, if you look. You could also run a line from an engine to the stock tank and back to keep it from freezing, and maybe just a pump would do that, but with a hot water line one could be sure.

Solar? I say one can never have too many panels, nor too many batteries. My 750 watt array is great. I plan on adding to it until I have 1.5KW. I have a 1320AH 12V bank of 6V golf cart batteries I wish was double. I wouldn't even try to run a load like your pump without my engine adding amps to the bank. That's what I have to do whe I run the AC here in the summer. I don't need my engine's heat then!!!!!!

Feedback, please, WannaB.

[proff]

Solar is almost certainly not viable. millitary surplus deisel geny, running on vegie oil our your version of aggricultural deisel coz veggie oil is hard to start in winter sometimes. get a electric start one. if you know a spark get them to set it to start and stop on demand with a thermostat and a float on a micro switch for the water. with a resonably large water storage container like an ex minitary bladder or 300 gallon tank it wont have to start and stop every five mins- use storage heaters for the same reason. dead cheep in the states.

[cjbotkin]

Hi:

I'd look into the GRUNDFOS flex pumps... that can use Solar PV voltage directly to move water.  I've heard that two 75 Watt panels can move a good bit of water from a well.

That pump you have demands a serious PV system to electrify it.  Many more $ on PV panels and batteries, etc.  Maybe a direct PV-to pump would be more efficient.

http://www.scsolar.com/Grundfos_Solar_Pumps.html

http://www.pvsolarpumps.com/grundfos_pumps.html

http://www.sierrasolar.com/manufacturers.php?manufacturer_id=53

Good Luck.

Clayton