Author Topic: parabolic  (Read 3170 times)

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stevo566

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parabolic
« on: December 29, 2007, 10:45:33 PM »
Hello, new to the group.  Just starting a project involving a 10' sat dish ,which I am going to cover with 3-6" cut mirrors.  I plan on using a 2' x 2' x 10 stainless steel box with an inlet and outlet port.  Not sure about the tracking end of it.  I plan to initially use a 80 gallon heat exchanger tank for hot water use only.  If it works well I'll try using an air /heat exchanger to heat my home during winter sunshine.  Any info anyone can give me before I start would be appreciated.  Thanks Steve
« Last Edit: December 29, 2007, 10:45:33 PM by (unknown) »

Volvo farmer

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Re: parabolic
« Reply #1 on: December 29, 2007, 04:36:11 PM »
Here's three works worth of reading, and a solution to your tracking needs.


http://www.redrok.com/main.htm

« Last Edit: December 29, 2007, 04:36:11 PM by Volvo farmer »
Less bark, more wag.

fcfcfc

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Re: parabolic
« Reply #2 on: December 29, 2007, 08:30:58 PM »
Where are you located..??.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2007, 08:30:58 PM by fcfcfc »

Phil Timmons

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Re: parabolic
« Reply #3 on: December 29, 2007, 09:48:32 PM »
Rough math says:


Radius = 5 feet,


so 5 x 5 x pi = about 78 square feet.


minus 2 x 2 shadow -- but sun will hit the back side, so maybe consider that a wash . . .


Anyway, 78 divided by 4 = about 19 to 20 "suns."  Not a real strong concentrator, but if you are only heating water to warm, maybe ok.  


Typically more reflector area is a good thing, but starting with what you have is a good thing, as well.  Are you using the existing linear actuator on the dish to do the tracking?  The wind load may increase with a now solid mirrored dish compared to a mesh.  


You may want to shrink the target as well to reduce the water and material weight load and increase the concentration.  2 x 2 x 5/6 feet = 3.33 cu. ft = 213 pounds in water weight alone hanging out on the front of the system.  A smaller target box is generally cheaper, as well.  Black is generally better than shiny stainless.  Can you use black thermal paint on this?  Dunno.  Looked into trying to find black stainless for this type application in the recent past and just got blank stares from suppliers.


Make sure you use a pop-off or T&P (temperature and pressure) relief valve at the collector box, if this is a closed system.  If your pump stops the temperature and the collector goes to boiling things can get very exciting if this system is not pressure rated.


As already asked -- how far North are you?


Maybe take a look at Teton's design notes, as well.


www.ida.net/users/tetonsl/solar/solarhom.htm

« Last Edit: December 29, 2007, 09:48:32 PM by Phil Timmons »

Volvo farmer

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Re: parabolic
« Reply #4 on: December 29, 2007, 10:42:05 PM »
Are you the ghost of Nick Pine??? The resemblance is quite remarkable, really.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2007, 10:42:05 PM by Volvo farmer »
Less bark, more wag.

stevo566

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Re: parabolic
« Reply #5 on: December 30, 2007, 06:11:42 AM »
Thanks for the reply.  Curious why 78 is divided by 4?  I would have thought the smaller the mirrors the more sund but that's why I am asking questions.  As far as the actuator, yes and I have thought about the wind load.  The system is in a somewhat protected area behind and close to my house (connecticut).  I have all of the raw material so cost  is not a factor, as far as time..............well usually once you start a project new and exciting thoughts come up, so I look forward to that. I like your idea of increasing the focus point to 5-6 feet, maybe I can counteract that with a counterweight on the back end. I'm sure some sort of automotive black paint would do the trick, should I decide to go that route.  I recently vented a wood stove through the bottom of a house boiler (used) to heat the water to heat my shop.  Forgot to turn on the power one day and if it was not for the relief valve it would have been very interesting (and loud)!  So I won't forget! Any ideas on tracking?  I'm also thinking about covering the unit with plexi or glass to protect it from snow, hail, etc.  What do you think?  Thanks Steve..........
« Last Edit: December 30, 2007, 06:11:42 AM by stevo566 »

stevo566

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Re: parabolic
« Reply #6 on: December 30, 2007, 06:12:27 AM »
CT.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2007, 06:12:27 AM by stevo566 »

stevo566

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Re: parabolic
« Reply #7 on: December 30, 2007, 06:13:55 AM »
Sorry, but I don't know  him.  who is he?  Steve
« Last Edit: December 30, 2007, 06:13:55 AM by stevo566 »

stevo566

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Re: parabolic
« Reply #8 on: December 30, 2007, 06:14:29 AM »
I'll check it out, thanks.  Steve
« Last Edit: December 30, 2007, 06:14:29 AM by stevo566 »

stevo566

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Re: parabolic
« Reply #9 on: December 30, 2007, 08:08:01 AM »
Just finished reading Teton's design notes.  Thanks, very interesting.  Steve
« Last Edit: December 30, 2007, 08:08:01 AM by stevo566 »

fcfcfc

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Re: parabolic
« Reply #10 on: December 30, 2007, 08:41:25 AM »
Hi: The reason I asked is that typically from a heat gathering perspective, you need very clear sky climates for concentrators, I.E. most of the sun rays that you get throughout the year is in the form of direct rays. Here in the NE we get too large a percentage of our sun in diffuse form which concentrators cannot utilize. If its a just for fun project though, all that doesn't matter....  

Good luck... RedRok's trackers are good also...

« Last Edit: December 30, 2007, 08:41:25 AM by fcfcfc »

stevo566

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Re: parabolic
« Reply #11 on: December 30, 2007, 01:36:05 PM »
Thanks, I'd like to think this project is just for fun but in the back of my mind I'm hoping for my free total energy solution.  Just kidding, I love playing around with this stuff and since I have most of what I need, it's just the time spent on building the unit and putting up with the looks I get from my wife! Steve
« Last Edit: December 30, 2007, 01:36:05 PM by stevo566 »

Phil Timmons

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Re: parabolic
« Reply #12 on: December 30, 2007, 03:44:05 PM »
Nothing magic about the numbers, I was just working from I was reading in your specs.


78 square feet (or so) is the area of the dish being exposed directly to the Sun, correct?  That was why the pi x R^2 stuff above.  The radius of a 10 foot dish is 5, so 5 x 5 x 3.14 = about 78.


The area of your target -- at the focus of the dish -- where the LNA (low noise amp) was located,  and where the light will be focused -- is going to be 2 feet X 2 feet, correct?  That would be 4 square feet.


Taking the area of the dish and dividing it by the area of the target will give you how much concentration is happening -- 78 square feet of Sun focused into 4 square feet of target -- in your case about 20X.  Teton's design works out about 60X or so, as I recall.  I think he had some 110+ plus 1 X 1 foot mirrors focusing on a target about a 1.5 X 1.5 foot or so


Typical ranges are from 50X to 150X or so.  Generally the further North (or South, below the equator), the higher the concentration should be.  Mostly a feature of how fast you can get the heat sucked off from the target.


You can make yours a higher concentration if you want by using a smaller target.  That would also save you on material costs, and reduce the weight hanging up there, as well.  The water will just have to pump through faster to keep up with the higher concentration and smaller volume.  In concept you could make your target as small as your largest mirror.  


There are a couple good methods on tracking.  It becomes sort of a religion in some discussions.  I have used both timers and photocell style sensors and both work fine.  Also used freon weight types for PV, but that is not really an accurate way for this.


As far as weatherproofing, etc -- I sort of look to nature on some design.  At night a lot of flowers fold down, and wait for the Sun to come back, so that is what I am doing on my designs.  


http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2007/8/22/171323/372  


Teton's design did not really allow for this and his mirrors wore out from the continued exposure.  If you are using the full dish pole mounts and motor, I do not see an easy way for you to fold up, either.  The Stirling Engine solar concentrators I have seen use a pole mount like yours and Teton's, but have "petals" the close up over the whole array.


Here (Texas) I figured hail or wind would destroy them if I did not make it close up flat and tight on itself, as well.   If you do not mind the additional daily work, you may be able to use the vertical alignment on the dish to tilt it forward every evening, and back up in the morning?

« Last Edit: December 30, 2007, 03:44:05 PM by Phil Timmons »

stevo566

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Re: parabolic
« Reply #13 on: December 31, 2007, 05:24:19 AM »
Yes, I think protecting the unit at night and during storms is going to be an issue.  Not a bad idea tilting forward. I'm placing this unit close to the house, so maybe I could "turn" toward the house at night and during rough weather.  My mistake by the way...the focal point is 2 inches x 2 inches x 10 inches.  But after reading Teton's article, I think now that will become even thinner.  I've settled on 6 inch x 6 inch mirror's.  I am having one problem, maybe you can help me figure out.  The ribs of the dish have bolt heads sticking up.  I'm trying to figure out a way to "lift" the mirrors enough to miss these boltheads, so I can cover as much area as possible.  They stick up about 1/4 inch.  I've thought about 1/2" weatherstripping glued to the dish and mirror, I think this would be good for the short term but would not hold up very long, Any ideas?  Steve
« Last Edit: December 31, 2007, 05:24:19 AM by stevo566 »

jonas302

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Re: parabolic
« Reply #14 on: December 31, 2007, 09:20:36 AM »
3m double sided tape for  holding trim on a car might work do you already have the mirrors? Some have used mylar film to cover the dish. Did you find the story from franks workshop it had a cool vidio showing how powerful they can be
« Last Edit: December 31, 2007, 09:20:36 AM by jonas302 »

Phil Timmons

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Re: parabolic
« Reply #15 on: December 31, 2007, 03:13:07 PM »
Well, yes indeed.  2 inches X 2 inches is a very different breed of cat.


But how do a bunch of individual 6 inches X 6 inches flat mirrors focus on such a target?


In general, flat mirrors project their own shape on a target.  Are you using curved mirrors that will focus down towards the smaller target?


If you are managing to focus down to 4 square inches, I also now have some concerns for over-amping the overall concentration -- 78 square feet / .03 square feet (2 inch X 2 inch) is around 2800X.  This may melt steel.    


Take a look at this design to see the effect of putting too much heat on a target.


http://www.solardeathray.com/


You might to also see this series of pages that start here:


http://cockeyed.com/incredible/solardish/dish01.shtml

« Last Edit: December 31, 2007, 03:13:07 PM by Phil Timmons »

stevo566

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Re: parabolic
« Reply #16 on: January 01, 2008, 06:02:48 AM »
Interesting sites.  I think the best thing for me to do is just leave the "ribs" of the dish exposed, thereby getting a fairly uniform design.  I was considering setting up a light, sort of a focus light, during construction to keep alignment within a range.  If the heat generated melts steel, I would consider that a wild success.  If that happens, then I can adjust or remove mirrors to achieve the heat necessary to do what I want to experiment with. The target is 2" x 2" x 10", however scaling down the thickness to 1/2" or 3/4" seems to be a better fit.  As it is new years day today, it seems like the perfect day to start.  I plan on making a cardboard cutout of one of the "bays" on the dish and cut the mirrors to fit as close as possible.  After this is done, I'll determine if a smaller mirror is warranted.  Happy New Year and success with your project.  Steve  
« Last Edit: January 01, 2008, 06:02:48 AM by stevo566 »

stevo566

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Re: parabolic
« Reply #17 on: January 01, 2008, 06:10:52 AM »
Thanks for the thought.  I think I'm just going the leave the "ribs" exposed, so I can just secure the mirrors to the mesh backing of the dish.  The thought of trying to put a filler behind each mirror wasn't working for me.  I think the exposed ribs, are'nt going to be a problem.  I'm going to make a cardboard cutout for one section, do one section and see how they do. I've thought about mylar, not sure about the cost of covering the dish or where to get the stuff.  I've been saving good quality mirrors for years.  Maybe I'll blend the two!   Happy New Year.......by the way , how do I get to Frank's workshop?  Steve
« Last Edit: January 01, 2008, 06:10:52 AM by stevo566 »

Phil Timmons

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Re: parabolic
« Reply #18 on: January 02, 2008, 04:48:01 PM »
NASA uses hexagon shaped aluminium mirrors to get maximum coverage in a dish shape.  


The resutling beehive surface cover 100 percent of the dish with no gaps.


But NASA has a much bigger budget than I and probably you do. :)  

« Last Edit: January 02, 2008, 04:48:01 PM by Phil Timmons »

stevo566

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Re: parabolic
« Reply #19 on: January 03, 2008, 05:41:16 AM »
I like the fact that mother nature is involved in NASA's design, unfortunately I would start knocking my head against the wall if I had (and I do!), cut each individual mirror to fit!  My budjet is tiny. As an update, I have mounted my dish on one wall in my garage so I can spin it as I work on it.  I've made a curved wooden template of one "slice" of the dish.  With this I can cut individual pieces of mirror at my shop, and pre-fit them to make sure they fit, bring them home and install them. Today I think (if time permits) I'm going to make a one piece template of the "slice" of the dish , to lay out right on the mirror and cut it in one V shaped piece, then slice it up to fit, this way each slice will be it's own puzzle piece.  I'll have to use masking tape or something to number the pieces but that is minor.  What do you think? Steve
« Last Edit: January 03, 2008, 05:41:16 AM by stevo566 »

Clifford

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Re: parabolic
« Reply #20 on: January 07, 2008, 10:12:30 PM »
You might look at a trough system.


Some people have made the troughs out of stainless steel, or other reflective material, although I'd assume long, narrow mirrors would be excellent too.  You may need to waterproof the edges and backs of the mirrors.


Another thing to look at are Fresnel Lenses & Mirrors.


Essentially, the idea is that you can focus multiple small mirrors from a flat surface in a way similar to a single parabolic mirror.

« Last Edit: January 07, 2008, 10:12:30 PM by Clifford »

stevo566

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Re: parabolic
« Reply #21 on: January 08, 2008, 05:42:07 AM »
The trough mirrors are interesting, however I have the material I need to do this project.  One problem I've had in the past is starting a project and getting caught up in another before the one I'm working on is done.  So what I'm going to do is just focus on the sat. dish idea until complete. If it works out, great if not I'll move on to something else.  Actually I read an article that made perfect sense to me.  That is, building an outdoor shed, with solar panels, heating a water tank inside the shed, then pumping the heated water into the house. But before I get too excited, I have to finish the dish. Thanks for the input.  Steve
« Last Edit: January 08, 2008, 05:42:07 AM by stevo566 »