Author Topic: Watt's UP or HF Panels or Me  (Read 4196 times)

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UrbanWind

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Watt's UP or HF Panels or Me
« on: July 10, 2009, 05:33:10 PM »
I am really trying to get a system set up to start paying for the items I bought.  Before  I start climbing ladders and drilling holes in roofs I am doing a dry run on the ground.


I have currently 15 HF 15 watt panels.  I have read everyones comments about them on the board but I have made this bed and have to sleep in it.


I did some reading and thought maybe I would jump right to the 48 volt system out of the shoot.  Everyone says it is supposed to be better and more efficient.


Doing my dry run on the ground I did a series on 4 panels.  I got 88 Voc on them at .5 amp I think it was.


My batteries (13 of them 12v) are currently wired parallel since I was doing a 12 volt system.


To capture the electricity produced I just plugged this configuration into the string to charge it.  It runs through a Doc Watson version of the Watt's UP meter.


I was suprised to see that it read like 7-8 watts at 12.7v on the meter.   I expected to see say 40-45 watts.   The amps read .6 which would be righ and that works out.


From everything I have seen on this board I do not know why my watts were not higher.


Can some one explain this to me?     If I hook up one panel I get the same reading or a little better.  Could the Watt's up meter be wrong?


Thank you in advance.  I have learned a lot here so far.


Jim


P.S.  I have read the thread about the HF panels not having Diodes in them.  I have never had drain back from my batteries that i can seel/tell to the solar panels.  I am not using a charge controller with them.  Should I install a diode in each one to be safe or maybe just one at the end of the series?

« Last Edit: July 10, 2009, 05:33:10 PM by (unknown) »

ghurd

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Re: Watt's UP or HF Panels or Me
« Reply #1 on: July 10, 2009, 11:50:36 AM »
You need to think in Amps.


The panels can make, or carry, 1A.  That's it.


The 4 panels in series still only make the same Amps as 1 panel.


The 88V can push that 1A into a 12V battery, or a 48V battery, but it is still 1A.


Simple explanation.

There is a hose with 1 gallon per minute (1A) flowing.

You want more flow.

Installing 4 hoses end to end will not make more flow.


The panels are rated for 12V and the battery is 12V.  If you want to use them at 12V then connect them like the instructions say.


If you want to use them at 48V then connect them for 48V.  And connect the battery for 48V.

G-

« Last Edit: July 10, 2009, 11:50:36 AM by ghurd »
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Bruce S

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Re: Watt's UP or HF Panels or Me
« Reply #2 on: July 10, 2009, 01:13:31 PM »
Jim;

 First let's get the panels output the correct voltage/amps first.

With the 4 hooked up in series, then the 88Voc is correct , these panels individually Voc ranges anywhere from 21 - 24Voc, so that tell me the panels are at least outputing something.


Next: Since I don't know if these are brand new or not I'm assume they are.

When new, it could take a few days/week for them to burn-in so to speak, OR they could be in partial shade causing the lower amps.

However also remember; Hooked up in series you'll get higher voltage and same current. 4xPV in series = 88Voc and 1.2 Amps MAX!! since these are possibly new then the lower 0.5amps could be dead on.


Now: the Watts up meter issue: This unit uses the incoming voltage to power itself, so its using some of that power, you can hook up a seperate but this is okay for now.

ALSO IMPORTANT!! the unit is rated for 60Vdc continous so you're kind way above that, but connecting the other side to a 48V battery pack will fix this problem.

Better way would be to hook up the panels in Parallel connect the other side to 12V battery pack and watch the meter.

The latter is how I have mine setup.


Then give it a minute to settle down, the unit should then begin to show you the corrected input.

You see you're clamping the voltage down to the battery pack level; no matter how much voltage you have coming in the battery will dictate what it can and cannot take, unless of course you over charge it, but you'll be able to tell.

Basically it is charging the battery and the battery voltage will rise as the pack gets charged and then no more.

You can use the meter to test each panel to make sure they're all working.

YES a diode at each panel would be best, but stay with the schotshy <sp? for lower power.<p>
Cheers

Bruce S


 

« Last Edit: July 10, 2009, 01:13:31 PM by Bruce S »
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Madscientist267

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Re: Watt's UP or HF Panels or Me
« Reply #3 on: July 10, 2009, 03:19:54 PM »
Bruce: I believe 'schottky' is what you were after. :)


As for the original subject:


"I did some reading and thought maybe I would jump right to the 48 volt system out of the shoot.  Everyone says it is supposed to be better and more efficient."


There's a very important aspect in need of addressing in all of this that nobody has touched on yet - one must take into consideration why 48V is more efficient. That which is more efficient electrically is not necessarily more efficient economically. It depends on your usage and future plans, etc.


48V is generally used in the higher power systems because losses in cables, equipment, and the like is reduced because less current flows, yet the power remains the same. Unfortunately, 48V equipment is going to be on the expensive side - the inverters and associated equipment are something like 3KW and up range.


In an optimal 48V configuration with what you have, you'd be producing 180 watts (12 panels, 15W each; the oddballs would have to be left out). Three sets of 4 in series, then the 3 sets paralleled. Right off the bat, you're cutting your throat (unless you're going to buy at least one more panel) by only being able to use 12 of 15 panels.


Next to consider, the main output coming away from the panels would be ~3A at best. This doesn't exactly stress 'normal' wire sizes, and there isn't much loss from it, even on decent runs.


The costs (not to mention headaches) you'll encounter trying to implement this as 48V just don't seem worth it for what you'll get. That's not to say that it wont, but if it were me, I wouldn't do it personally. If you can truly envision a 5KW inverter mounted somewhere near the battery bank at some point in the reasonable future, well, it might be worth it to not have to change over later. If not, forget 48V.


12V is the other end of the spectrum, and with 15 panels in parallel, and while you would get power out of every panel you have, you'd be in significant excess of 15A; a level that begins to really become respectable, and requires consideration for the losses and wire sizes involved. Losses due to heat are the greatest in a 12V system, hence 48V systems being "more efficient". Every resistance in a 12V circuit wastes 4 times the energy that would be wasted at 48V for an equal amount of power.


The balance at those power levels is a 24V system. A common ratio of output to input capabilities is 4:1, so a 1KW inverter would suit nicely. You can get 24V inverters for a reasonable cost (if not flat out free if you know where to look and/or are willing to make a couple sacrifices here and there). You get some of the efficiency back because the heat losses are less, as well as regaining two of your existing panels. 7 paralleled sets of 2 in series, leaving only one in the "dark". (Sorry, couldn't resist.)


You'd be at 210 watts input, 24V at ~8.75A - Manageable without digging too deep in the wallet to cover the wire costs.


Also, you were mentioning current levels not appearing to be what they should be. Just want to point out that any part of a panel that is shaded not only doesn't produce power, it acts as a valve and doesn't let it pass either. If the entire surface of every panel is not fully exposed to bright, unobstructed sunlight, the entire set will fail to produce rated power.


Steve

« Last Edit: July 10, 2009, 03:19:54 PM by Madscientist267 »
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dbcollen

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Re: Watt's UP or HF Panels or Me
« Reply #4 on: July 10, 2009, 04:02:38 PM »
The main problem is in trying to use a 48 volt solar array to charge a 12 volt battery. The battery will hold the voltage of the panels down, way out of their maximum power point. S4W has a nice little MPPT charge controller on his site S4WsBox.com for a reasonable price. It will deal with 100VOC ans 25 amps on the output.


Dustin

« Last Edit: July 10, 2009, 04:02:38 PM by dbcollen »

dnix71

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Re: Watt's UP or HF Panels or Me
« Reply #5 on: July 10, 2009, 04:13:56 PM »
One of my HF panels cracked and failed, so I had an excuse to break it down to see how it was made.


The wires inside the panels are thin foil on opposite sides of the long end, and the wires coming from the back of the panel are maybe 28 gauge. You might get 2 in series to work, but 4 in series is just going to choke.

« Last Edit: July 10, 2009, 04:13:56 PM by dnix71 »

UrbanWind

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Re: Watt's UP or HF Panels or Me
« Reply #6 on: July 10, 2009, 08:32:01 PM »
G -


I guess looking at the wind charts has got me thinking incorrectly.  You have seen these charts that look like this


Volts   Amps   Watts



  1.        1      12
  2.        2      30
  3.       15     360


Based on what you stated above if I used a 12 volt battery on this the most I would put in it at the last line would be 12 x 15  or 180 watts for charging.  I could not get 360 watts out of it.


That is what threw me off.


Thank you for taking time to reply.


Jim

« Last Edit: July 10, 2009, 08:32:01 PM by UrbanWind »

UrbanWind

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Re: Watt's UP or HF Panels or Me
« Reply #7 on: July 10, 2009, 08:44:10 PM »
Bruce,


The amps reading I took was not in full sun.  I just took some readings (factual ones) to use in asking my question about why the watts did not show higher.


They been out of the box for about a week while I think how I am going to do all this.  I have designed my bracket to hold them and had to work out the angle I needed to put them on the roof.  I am at 41.56°N so I need that +- 15 from what I read.  Going on a standard 5/12 roof facing south so I need to add some angle to my bracket that I am making.


I will add one to each panel.  I have some 60V 3A.   There is another question I do not know the answer to.  I could have used a 40V 1A on each but if I am going to 48v I needed the bigger one?


Thank you for your time.


Jim

« Last Edit: July 10, 2009, 08:44:10 PM by UrbanWind »

UrbanWind

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Re: Watt's UP or HF Panels or Me
« Reply #8 on: July 10, 2009, 09:02:44 PM »
Steve,


I went through a lot of what you mentioned above and had questioned myself many times about it.  One day my wife just yelled at me and said "pick one!" and at the time the 48 volt system was in my head.


Quick background I have a small 12 volt system in my shed I built last fall.  It has 26 watts of panels on it, a single battery and a 1K inverter.  It has full lights, plug ins and a motion security light.  If I have an extra panel or 2 in the end I am going to put it there.  If the sun is not good in about a week or sometimes 2 the alarm goes off on the inverter and I have to shut it off for a couple days to catch up to run again for a week or so.  Those security lights have a draw on them for the sensor and the inverter has a .2 amp draw also so I am pulling .6 amps all the time.


I want to say that this is only the second time I have read this and explains some things I have seen in my testing.


"Just want to point out that any part of a panel that is shaded not only doesn't produce power, it acts as a valve and doesn't let it pass either. If the entire surface of every panel is not fully exposed to bright, unobstructed sunlight, the entire set will fail to produce rated power"


That was the answer to the 64k question or at least the 10 watts worth.   When configured in 48 volts a couple times I noticed they were not putting out much.  It was just too early and sitting on the ground on was partially shaded in the morning when I was testing.   Thank You for that piece of information.


Jim

« Last Edit: July 10, 2009, 09:02:44 PM by UrbanWind »

RandomJoe

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Re: Watt's UP or HF Panels or Me
« Reply #9 on: July 10, 2009, 09:44:51 PM »
I'm curious why you think that.  The current through each panel will be the same, you are just adding voltages.  Seems to me it wouldn't matter how many you stack together, as the limiting factor for the wire gauge would be current, which stays the same as always.  Or am I forgetting something?


I don't have four to try, but did for a short time hook my three HF panels in series to my Outback MPPT controller, until I got my new panels installed.  Worked as expected, I was running in the neighborhood of 45-52V, and around 0.6A give or take.


They actually did a bit better in this configuration than the usual parallel arrangement, thanks to the MPPT.  20-25W is all I have ever gotten from mine after the first day or two.  I was able to get 28-30W on the MPPT controller.

« Last Edit: July 10, 2009, 09:44:51 PM by RandomJoe »

dnix71

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Re: Watt's UP or HF Panels or Me
« Reply #10 on: July 11, 2009, 11:34:29 AM »
The current has to flow through the panels' thin film. The panels are two layers of glass with a coating on each half. One side becomes positive and the other negative when exposed to light. It's setup like a dry capacitor.


The thin film on a HF panel is so thin you can actually see through both layers if you hold it up under strong light.

« Last Edit: July 11, 2009, 11:34:29 AM by dnix71 »

Madscientist267

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Re: Watt's UP or HF Panels or Me
« Reply #11 on: July 11, 2009, 02:31:48 PM »
Yeah, I really wasn't even addressing the power matching issues. There are several aspects of this in particular that still need addressing... LOL I didn't want to write a book... well, um, that long of a book... :P


Steve

« Last Edit: July 11, 2009, 02:31:48 PM by Madscientist267 »
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Madscientist267

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Re: Watt's UP or HF Panels or Me
« Reply #12 on: July 11, 2009, 02:34:52 PM »
Hahaha I understand about the 'just pick one' thing... Unfortunately, thats really bad advice... Can lead to "expensive staring" at idle equipment, if you know what I mean. :)


Ultimately, you will have to decide, but gather all your goodies first. It's one of the bigger decisions, since it more or less 'defines' the rest of the system.


Steve

« Last Edit: July 11, 2009, 02:34:52 PM by Madscientist267 »
The size of the project matters not.
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Madscientist267

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Re: Watt's UP or HF Panels or Me
« Reply #13 on: July 11, 2009, 02:55:13 PM »
That's why I'm sticking with silicon - Amorphous may be cheaper, but its less efficient and doesn't seem to hold up as well from what I've gathered messing with them... and whats this about having to 'age' them to get full output?


Personally, I'm not real impressed by that particular technology.

« Last Edit: July 11, 2009, 02:55:13 PM by Madscientist267 »
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RandomJoe

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Re: Watt's UP or HF Panels or Me
« Reply #14 on: July 12, 2009, 05:07:59 AM »
The current has to flow through the panels' thin film.


Right, and my thinking is that the current will be the same whether you use a single panel or four or twenty in series.  So at least from that viewpoint there shouldn't be a problem with stringing them together.  If it can handle the current singly, it should be able to do so in a series string.


...I think?!?... ;)


Perhaps there would be some issues with the voltage - especially if one was crazy enough to string 20 of the things together - and a failure in the system caused some high potentials across the panels?  Hm, or maybe if a single panel got shaded while the rest of the array was generating?


Not that I would advocate the use of HF panels for this application, just trying to understand all the issues involved...

« Last Edit: July 12, 2009, 05:07:59 AM by RandomJoe »

ghurd

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Re: Watt's UP or HF Panels or Me
« Reply #15 on: July 12, 2009, 05:45:13 AM »
The panels are rated at 1A each.

So 15 panels in parallel can make 15A.


If the batteries were run below dead, they could be charging 15A at 11.5V for 172.5W.

It the batteries are being equalized, they could be charging 15A at 15V for 225W.


They are rated 15W peak power with 1A at 15V each.  15 panels x 15W = 225W, under ideal conditions.


Can't get 360W out of 225W of panels.

G-

« Last Edit: July 12, 2009, 05:45:13 AM by ghurd »
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dnix71

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Re: Watt's UP or HF Panels or Me
« Reply #16 on: July 12, 2009, 12:52:26 PM »
The panels do age a bit because they are amorphous. The output declines for about the first three months.


Stacking them up in series may not push up the current through the film, but you are trying to push more power through the series of panels. There is internal resistence in the film.


The HF panels are a dry battery. The thin film on each side is stacked as a series of strips to get the working voltage of the panel. It's like using a bunch of AAA batteries in series in a device to get a proper working voltage. But if the batteries (or solar panels) are not exactly alike in output, the string won't work like you expected.


Two in series is about 47 volt open circuit. 3 in series is over 60, which in theory means you have to follow the NEC for wiring.

« Last Edit: July 12, 2009, 12:52:26 PM by dnix71 »

ghurd

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Re: Watt's UP or HF Panels or Me
« Reply #17 on: July 12, 2009, 01:37:46 PM »
Not sure how you came up with some of these ideas, but 1A in #28 is 1A in #28, or the thin film,

regardless if the panel is connected to a 12V battery, or 4 panels are in series to a 48V battery.  It will not 'choke'.

G-
« Last Edit: July 12, 2009, 01:37:46 PM by ghurd »
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Bruce S

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Re: Watt's UP or HF Panels or Me
« Reply #18 on: July 13, 2009, 08:32:16 AM »
Jim;

 If you're putting the panels up in a 48V configuration and you're going to wire up the blocking diodes to each panel; then you can go with the 40V 1A ones.

The highest voltage you'll see out of ea panels should be around 23V max( if you're using the HF digital panels it'll be screaming like crazy at this point or have popped a fuse), and there will be a voltage drop of 0.4vdc or lower.


Once the panels settle in they may see a higher current,but shouldn't be a worry. These can handle the max voltage in reverse as well.


Cheers

Bruce S

« Last Edit: July 13, 2009, 08:32:16 AM by Bruce S »
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Bruce S

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Re: Watt's UP or HF Panels or Me
« Reply #19 on: July 13, 2009, 09:07:47 AM »
Steve;

Nice write up. Yes "schottky" is correct.


I need to do a few real world test for this idea of internal losses.

I don't use the "normal" batteries for my setup; so the losses as you've written are theritcal to me.


I regularly use 4 - 5 of the 6 HF panels I have, each has the schottky diodes mounted on the back, as I have shading problems for the panels, no matter where I would mount them.

   The tress adds tons of free cooling and nice bird watching ( and squirrel hunting) on the 2nd floor so not messing with them at all.


I can agree for long distance runs of wire from batts packs to inverter would get to be a problem, but even with the panels wired in higher voltages I'm just not seeing the losses.

Granted I'm currently using 12ga multi-stranded wire and the incoming power is submicro-power with respect to some the systems on here, however using an extension cord for needed power (usually tests only, OR E-scooter charger), I don't see the losses that others do.


One of the neater things of the Watt's Up meter, is by adding an external power source, I can run around measuring near real time power and its there at the panels or 40 feet away.


I will certainly agree that once up in the 100+ watts area, I could quickly be found wrong.


Cheers

Bruce S

« Last Edit: July 13, 2009, 09:07:47 AM by Bruce S »
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UrbanWind

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Re: Watt's UP or HF Panels or Me
« Reply #20 on: July 15, 2009, 05:49:38 PM »
Ok I keep thinking of more questions since I am not 100% of what I am doing.


Since these will be wired series to make 48 Volts and they produce about 1 amp why will a 40 volt work?   It is 88voc about so would I not think about a 100v or a 60 volt at least 1 Amp?


Since they are in series and there is a .4 volt drop per diode will I not loose almost 1.2 volts by the time it comes around?


I am dumping these straight to the batteries  because I was going to have wind with them (still may) and I was at 12 volts and using my C40 as a dump.  Should I use a charge controller instead?


I appriciate everyones time that have responded.

Jim

« Last Edit: July 15, 2009, 05:49:38 PM by UrbanWind »

Bruce S

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Re: Watt's UP or HF Panels or Me
« Reply #21 on: July 17, 2009, 03:18:11 PM »
jim;

 Sorry for the late answers. Long time Close ARMY friend is no longer with us, and needed a proper send off before interment :-(.


The reasons a 40v diode at each panel, even in series, will work is due to the output of each panel. The MAX I've seen out of the HF panels is 22Vdc even the reverse voltage break down will not reach 40Vdc.


Yes, using 1 diode per panel will give you a total possible drop of 1.2V , but with these panels and the possible shading problems, you'll more than make up for it in total output.


YES, I would use a controller. However, don't think of the HF box as a charge controller, think of it more as a PDU (Power Distribution Unit). It has nothing in place (old or New) to keep the batteries from draining when the sun goes down, unless you manually turn the unit off each night.

It is a good enough device to plan stuff around such as charging portable drills, emergency lights, running 12V stuff from it etc I've even used the 12V cig port the run a 150w inverter just to see if it would hanlde it, and it did very well for several hours.


A good controller, and it doesn't have to be an expensive one, will keep the batteries charged at the correct levels without too much worry of over discharge or over charge OR if really strapped for cash buy one of Ghurd's dump controllers and set it up, it'll handle out of the box 150w easy with a good heat sink on the PFET.


There are a few posts here that have layouts that show the C40 being used with both wind and PVs. I believe you have the C40 in diversion mode, but check with the wind guys to be sure and safe.


Hope this helps;

Bruce S


 

« Last Edit: July 17, 2009, 03:18:11 PM by Bruce S »
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