Author Topic: Solar Newbie Questions  (Read 10830 times)

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markc

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Solar Newbie Questions
« on: September 21, 2009, 06:37:07 PM »
Using it mainly to charge batteries like AA D and some laptops along with maybe running some 12volt lights in a power outage.


I wanted to get some opinions on some of the equipment.

Sunelec SUN-130 -- 130 watt solar panels

I did a search on these and found a forum where they were talking about these being a positive ground system?

I am not sure what this means, I remember back in the day some White and Mack trucks were a positive ground system and needed an adapter to run negative ground equipment in them.

Is this a bad thing and should I stay away from these, taking into consideration I have not much of a clue on all this yet?


I was thinking of getting the Morningstar Tristar 45

Not sure I need this big of a unit but I figured down the road bigger might be better.


6 of the Samsclub 6volt golf cart batteries.

Not sure on how many but 6 seems like what allot of people use starting off.


Regards


Mark

« Last Edit: September 21, 2009, 06:37:07 PM by (unknown) »

ghurd

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Re: Solar Newbie Questions
« Reply #1 on: September 21, 2009, 01:05:18 PM »
It seems like a system built on extremes.


A 130W panel can do more than AA and Ds.

Laptop could go either way.


Under bigger might be better, the TS-60 is only a few bucks more.


Related to that 130W PV, it is a 24V panel.

No way to use 6 x 6V batteries with a 24V system.

Related to that panel and that controller, not a good match for a 12V system.

If you want to stay within the same controller brand and same PV, best to go with the same panel, and the SunSaver MPPT.


That is quite a bit of battery for only one 130W panel.

Some systems it would be fine (it changes, but running ~180W of PV into ~770AH of 12V battery at the shop, which makes sense for us).


Not sure where the Pos Ground statements came from.

The panels should not be effected by either form of grounding.

I strongly suggest Neg ground to avoid issues with other commonly available equipment.

G-

« Last Edit: September 21, 2009, 01:05:18 PM by ghurd »
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independent

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Re: Solar Newbie Questions
« Reply #2 on: September 21, 2009, 03:41:51 PM »
Sounds like you are going into this head first! Don't worry, that's a good way to start. However, it's also a good way to waste a lot of money. And easy to get sidetracked/misinformed...


Don't worry about the positive ground thing. Somebody is unintentionally messing with your mind ;D


I like to think of Panels, Batteries and Loads (the laptop, the 12v lights, AA chargers) as being matched. It might work for you, might not..


There is a very fortunate form of electricity delivery mechanism from a 12v solar panel (nominal, 36 cell 12v panels actually put out 20v in good sun but the extra voltage is there for a reason). That is solar panels are constant current devices. That makes them excellent for charging batteries. And predictable too!


So, I like to match my panels to my battery set up. And my battery set up to my load.

What I would do in your case is start is have a couple of different setups, build the smallest first and then when you know all there is to know build your "Dream" system.


For example, a simple setup could be as simple as a 15-20w Mono or Multicrystalline panel with 10 D Nicad D cells, a "ghurd" (tm) dump load controller and a Maha 401fs AA battery charger and a 11w Solsum (Steca) CFL. A 15w panel puts out 0.8A in good sun. It will take at least 12 hours (around 3 days of sunny weather in Summer) to fully charge the Nicad cells from flat if they are around 6000-7000mAh. The Nicads will run a single Solsum (Steca) 11w 12v compact fluoro for 8 hours.


I recommend the above for the following reasons:


"15w" Mono or Multicrystalline panels because they are reliable. A thin film 15w panel will not be as good, be more bulky. Any 15w Mono or Multicrystalline panel IEC rated panel should be fine


"10x" D Nicad cells (quality ones like Sanyo) are better than 1x 12v SLA (Lead Acid) battery because they can be fully discharged and recharged up 1000 times. Lead Acid batteries do not like being discharged more than half and can only handle very few discharges compared with Nicad. You will need a holder for the 10 cells, either make out of plumbing tubing or buy.


Maha 401fs, because it's reliable and runs on 12v (up to 15v from memory). Not particularly efficient. But reliable and fast. 4x AA cells equal 1A of discharge from the Nicads. I like my Maha charger, it's run reliably for a 2 or 3 years now.


A Steca, Solsum 11w 12v compact fluoro. I got mine from the multinational called ghurd.info . It's the best compact fluoro you can buy. I like Warm White, but your mileage might vary. Not cheap


On the topic of AA cells, Sanyo Eneloop are the best money can buy IMHO ;D. They are Low Self Discharge and unlike other NiMh technology, can be recharged up to 1000 times (versus 500 times for normal NiMh)


The ghurd controller because it's excellent (not just for the price), simple and bulletproof.


The above system will be not cheap (for the size) but will last you for some time as everything is very good quality. You might (or might not) need some help putting the controller together (soldering). Ghurd will know of someone who does that. He probably can put all of the above together if you decide to do something like that


The only thing it won't do is run a Laptop for any decent amount of time. That requires a much larger system.


The reason I said "match the panel to the battery and the battery to the load" is that you want a panel that charges you battery fast but not too fast. 10 hours to fully charged is a good amount of time as your batteries' longevity will be increased. You want a load that doesn't put too much strain on your battery. Either setup, ie AA charger or Light bulb will run for a decent amount of time, from memory the AA charger with 4 cells charging takes just under one Amp. That means it will run for 6 hours with nothing going in to your battery. With a 20w panel connected it should run for as long as there is sun (same amount of energy going in to the battery as going out). Same with the fluoro (I measured 0.77A). However, you never want to run the fluoro when there is sun :D


One important thing, is you will need figure out where to put the fuses. You will need fuses on the batteries and possibly on the Solar panel. Also a switch is useful too. I run my setups ungrounded (means no ground rod) with dual fuses on both positive and negative return wires. Fuses should be as near the battery as possible. For connectors I've experimented with most types and now use "Fast On" style 6.3mm spade connectors for everything. Spade fuses are cheap and easy to buy too.


BTW, Ghurd is the chap that posted the above answer to your question.

« Last Edit: September 21, 2009, 03:41:51 PM by independent »

Baling Wire

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Re: Solar Newbie Questions
« Reply #3 on: September 21, 2009, 03:46:24 PM »
Glenn, I believe that the Sunelec 130 w panels are meant for 12v use.  I have been looking at them.  Last time I looked, the owner had "pulled" the actual specs from his site.  I've only heard rumors about the positive ground business and I'm not sure what panel was being referred to?

BW
« Last Edit: September 21, 2009, 03:46:24 PM by Baling Wire »

independent

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Re: Solar Newbie Questions
« Reply #4 on: September 21, 2009, 03:57:12 PM »
10x D cells will run a laptop for several hours. However, you need a DC-DC (laptop car adapter) and need to configure it to run like it's running from a battery when it's running from wall, now the DC-DC adapter. You need to configure that usually in the BIOS and/or sometimes within the power setup settings in your computer. The D cells should run a modest power requirement laptop for 4 hours with all of the settings changed. They need to be changed because a laptop thinks it's running from the wall (without the settings changed) when plugged in to a DC-DC adapter and some will run as if they have electricity running-from-a-tap and suck all of the life out of those Nicads in a couple of hours. If you decide to run the laptop off the D cells, I would take out the internal battery first before you start the laptop as you will be running the laptop and charging the internal Li-ion battery at the same time (1hour of run time or less?).


The reason I didn't put in the above post is that it's kind of a distraction and too many variables to consider.

« Last Edit: September 21, 2009, 03:57:12 PM by independent »

ghurd

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Re: Solar Newbie Questions
« Reply #5 on: September 21, 2009, 04:26:07 PM »
"the owner had "pulled" the actual specs from his site"?

Which specs?


That outfit appears to be changing specs fast than we (me?) can keep up.


Earlier today the SUN-130 was a 24V PV.  No kidding.  I looked at the specs because nobody has all this stuff memorized.


I see TWO "SUN-130" PVs listed now, right now, both are $257.40, and both are arguably 12V PVs.


(copy/paste)


"VOC 21.80V VMP 17.80V ISC 7.92amp IMP 7.30amp Width Height Deep 26 5/8" 58 1/2" 1 3/8"


"VOC 24.10V VMP 19.80V ISC 7.11amp IMP 6.55amp Width Height Deep 27 3/4" 46" 1 3/8"


So if someone ordered a "SUN-130" a couple hours ago, what do they get in the mail?

One of the 2 12V versions, or the 24V version?


The $500 MPPT controller will not be happy with 2 of each in series.


Perfect example of what I said before and get shot down because somebody bought one that that was fine.


Seems like the panels are OK, just do not expect them to match the same part number as last week, and do not expect to match panels in a MPPT system.


No panel should have the frame connected to the + or -.

I expect the Pos Ground stuff was referring to some kind of voltage boosting circuit, having both +, 0, and - areas of the circuit.

Best to disregard those things for the topic at hand.

G-

« Last Edit: September 21, 2009, 04:26:07 PM by ghurd »
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ghurd

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Re: Solar Newbie Questions
« Reply #6 on: September 21, 2009, 04:43:51 PM »
I feel famous.  :)
« Last Edit: September 21, 2009, 04:43:51 PM by ghurd »
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markc

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Re: Solar Newbie Questions
« Reply #7 on: September 23, 2009, 06:01:39 AM »
You can tell I do not know a whole lot about this.


My original plan was to use this to charge the D cells, the D cells would then be used to run some lanterns I have, one is an LED lantern and one is a florescent lantern.

The LED unit can run 3 - 4 days using it 5 - 6 hours per day and the other one 2 - 3 days with the same 5 - 6 hours.

I thought if I had a little more then I needed battery wise, then that would be a plus for recharging the battery in the laptop but the laptop would not be a necessity item, it would be more of an entertainment item.


Not knowing how long it would take for the panel to recharge the bank I thought 6 batteries would give me some room, hoping that in 3 - 5 days I could get the bank back up to full charge before having to recharge the D cells.


So I should probably use less batteries in the bank or buy two panels and stick with the 6 batteries.

The charger I currently have is rated at 12 volt 1000ma, I will need to add one more of these though as it only charges 4 D cells at a time.


I originally thought about the Sunforce kit, but I heard that they loose there output fairly quickly and figured I would just be wasting money on that.


Sorry I did not reply sooner but I have been having some trouble getting to the site here.


Regards


Mark


 

« Last Edit: September 23, 2009, 06:01:39 AM by markc »

ghurd

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Re: Solar Newbie Questions
« Reply #8 on: September 26, 2009, 05:14:51 PM »
The site was down.


That is a Crazy Huge panel for D cells.


Might consider something normal, such as a panel in the 75W class, a nice controller (SS-6?), a 110AH 12V battery, a high quality Ni-Mh / Ni-Cd charger that has an option for 12V input, and an inverter for the laptop.

It would make more and store more usable power.


A 75W panel can do a lot, with the proper choices related to the loads.

G-

« Last Edit: September 26, 2009, 05:14:51 PM by ghurd »
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markc

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Re: Solar Newbie Questions
« Reply #9 on: September 28, 2009, 07:37:34 AM »
Ok I decided to take baby steps instead of going all in.


I ordered a 20 watt monocrystalline panel to play around with.

I will get two 6 volt batteries and a small charge controller.


One question I have.

How much gasses do the batteries release and is having them in a garage along with a small furnace a bad idea?

« Last Edit: September 28, 2009, 07:37:34 AM by markc »

DamonHD

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Re: Solar Newbie Questions
« Reply #10 on: September 28, 2009, 07:49:21 AM »
My original 20W panel is still part of my off-grid panel set!


I'll let others answer properly on the (hydrogen) gas point, but to me it sounds like a bad idea unless your batteries are externally well vented and/or far from any naked flame or hot surface and/or sealed with the controller set never to cause them to gas (no equalisation).  If the garage is unheated the batteries may also get too cold at times.


My small 12V sealed (gel) battery (a) shouldn't vent at all and (b) though it is in our kitchen it is immediately next to an external vent.


Rgds


Damon

« Last Edit: September 28, 2009, 07:49:21 AM by DamonHD »
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Bruce S

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Re: Solar Newbie Questions
« Reply #11 on: September 29, 2009, 08:22:23 AM »
marc:

That would depend on the Ahr of the batteries. With a 20W panel gassing might not be a problem.

The hydrogen gasses that it could make, could be wet with acid, so I would put something to keep the furnace from pulling that air towards it. a small computer fan will go a long way in dissapating the fumes. Some baking soda around the floor area will help a ton. Put the batteries in a rubber or plastic container to keep the acids away from just hitting anywhere. you could even prop the lid up a bit.

Dry hydrogen mixes with the air pretty fast and goes straight up, so a small DC fan that helps stir the air will be good and safer.


Batts: If these are Lead-acid types, they can self-discharge over a period of time.

NiCads will too, and quicker, but not so bad. NiMh, will discharge slower than NiCds, are now easier to find in higher Ahrs.

SLAs: Mostly same as L-As but need to NOT be discharged so much as this will kill them in short order, but easy to find and can be cheaper than Golf cart batts.


I agree w/Indy : Matching the batts to the load is a good thing, keep the batts being used so your investment isn't being wasted.

Matching PVs to Ahr rating is a good thing too.


Where are you located?


Bruce S

 

« Last Edit: September 29, 2009, 08:22:23 AM by Bruce S »
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markc

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Re: Solar Newbie Questions
« Reply #12 on: September 30, 2009, 12:54:45 PM »
Hmm maybe sealed would be the way to go in my situation.

The only good place to put these have a furnace in both locations.

I will think on that.

« Last Edit: September 30, 2009, 12:54:45 PM by markc »

markc

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Re: Solar Newbie Questions
« Reply #13 on: September 30, 2009, 12:58:06 PM »
That fan sounds like an interesting idea, maybe I could put these in a plastic container with a fan mounted in the top to exhaust the gasses.


I am located in eastern Kansas.

« Last Edit: September 30, 2009, 12:58:06 PM by markc »

markc

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Re: Solar Newbie Questions
« Reply #14 on: September 30, 2009, 01:01:06 PM »
I want to thank everyone for their comments, it makes things somewhat clearer.

I should have the panel in a day or two, just need to get a controller and battery

« Last Edit: September 30, 2009, 01:01:06 PM by markc »

Bruce S

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Re: Solar Newbie Questions
« Reply #15 on: October 07, 2009, 08:43:04 AM »
That could work well. Because fans can have sparky-ness locate the fan at the other end so the venting has a little time to merge back with available air.


Best of luck

Bruce S

« Last Edit: October 07, 2009, 08:43:04 AM by Bruce S »
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